The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Ferris Bueller]

That (salvation) does NOT become Undone, regardless if a man does Works or Not.

The man who does no works does not have a salvation to be undone.

1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You say here that there is not a born again person with dead faith (and I agree)......

What I said was, there is no such person, who is saved and Born Again with "Dead FAITH".

But then you talk about the born again person who has dead faith here.....

his spirit is quickened to a Born Again spirit, (via Gods Seed), and he is Baptized with the Holy Spirit (Gods internal Spirit.)

That ^ is a man having performed A Service unto God, (not a Works).
That does NOT become Undone, regardless if a man does Works or Not.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

What Bible are you using ? James 2:20

NIV - You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
KJV - But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
GNT - You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?

“ Dead Faith” beats the heck out of “ No Faith”
A dead cow is still a cow....it just no longer produces-anything worthwhile
“ Dead Faith” will make you one who receives no blessings in this life and No Rewards in the next...
On the other hand.... NO Faith will get you damned....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“ Dead Faith” beats the heck out of “ No Faith”
A dead cow is still a cow....it just no longer produces-anything worthwhile
“ Dead Faith” will make you one who receives no blessings in this life and No Rewards in the next...
On the other hand.... NO Faith will get you damned....

Dead faith is NO FAITH.....

1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Why is it impossible to 'do' these on your deathbed?

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.

Those that are not “ near” as clever as they think they are, try to look ahead thinking they will Outsmart the Creator Of theUniverse.....they think they will sin up a storm and have all the “ Fun” that they can get out of life, and then, right before they die , when they have nothing to lose...THEN they will get “ Saved”. Think again , Fool—- The initiative In Salvation belongs to God— “NOBODY comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”....and YOU are not capable of forcing God’s Hand.....If God does not make that First Move.....opening your heart to both Hear and then Believe the Gospel ....You're as Lost as an Eskimo in the middle of the Sahara Desert.You must be “ good soil” to get Saved and only God can make you “ good soil”......you had better come up with a Heart-Felt Prayer to be made “ good soil” before you get to that hospital bed ....you probably will never even see that bed where you think you will have the time to “ Get One” on God —-remember “this” when you are suffering in Hell —- “ God is not mocked”.......sweet dreams....
.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Dead faith is NO FAITH.....

1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are

Maybe......maybe not ....if what you say is True , why not just say “ No Faith?” In light of all the verses from Paul that your “ take” would make lies......I believe my “ Take” is a good one......I don’t=know everything—- prove me Wrong if you can....

 

[Taken]

The man who does no works does not have a salvation to be undone.

Can you identify "what Works" a man does to Have Salvation?

1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God will continue to "sin," because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are

Can you identify exactly "what sin" a man (who is born of God) "did" and can no longer "do"?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You say here that there is not a born again person with dead faith (and I agree)......

But then you talk about the born again person who has dead faith here.....

No.
You brought up the words "Dead Faith".
No.
I said there is no such thing as a Born Again person, with Dead Faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Maybe......maybe not ....if what you say is True , why not just say “ No Faith?” In light of all the verses from Paul that your “ take” would make lies......I believe my “ Take” is a good one......I don’t=know everything—- prove me Wrong if you can....

Some Bibles translate James 2:17 and James 2:20 as dead faith, others as worthless or useless faith. But it's clear that dead faith means useless or worthless faith.......

James 2:17
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:20
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless d ?

So, dead/useless for what? Useless for salvation........

James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Dead faith = NO FAITH. Dead faith is not the faith that saves. In your analogy it's the dead cow that can't give life to a person. It's still faith, but it's a useless faith like what demons have as James says in James 2:19.

 

[Heyzeus]

“ Dead Faith” beats the heck out of “ No Faith”
A dead cow is still a cow....it just no longer produces-anything worthwhile
“ Dead Faith” will make you one who receives no blessings in this life and No Rewards in the next...
On the other hand.... NO Faith will get you damned....

Not according to Jesus and James - and "no Faith will not get you damned" ... Matt 25 Sheep and Goats parable.

Dead faith on the other hand will get you damned - Matt 7:21 "Not all those who call Lord Lord will enter Heaven but - Only that do the Will of the Father"

This is followed by Jesus explaining that is not the hearing of the word that builds a strong foundation - but the doing of the word. Your foundation is build on sand my friend.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Those that are not “ near” as clever as they think they are, try to look ahead thinking they will Outsmart the Creator Of theUniverse.....they think they will sin up a storm and have all the “ Fun” that they can get out of life, and then, right before they die , when they have nothing to lose...THEN they will get “ Saved”. Think again , Fool—- The initiative In Salvation belongs to God— “NOBODY comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”....and YOU are not capable of forcing God’s Hand.....If God does not make that First Move.....opening your heart to both Hear and then Believe the Gospel ....You're as Lost as an Eskimo in the middle of the Sahara Desert.You must be “ good soil” to get Saved and only God can make you “ good soil”......you had better come up with a Heart-Felt Prayer to be made “ good soil” before you get to that hospital bed ....you probably will never even see that bed where you think you will have the time to “ Get One” on God —-remember “this” when you are suffering in Hell —- “ God is not mocked”.......sweet dreams....
.

I'm of the same opinion. I don't think deathbed conversions are very usual at all in God's modus operandi. Especially for people in their 70s and 80s who've lived a full life of opportunities for God to give them the chance to get saved. Reminds me of this.......

Hebrews 12:16-17
like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

 

[DaChaser]

It is still not to say that we are saved by the works that we do.

We are saved solo gracia and sola fide...

Being saved, we are regenerated and renewed on the inside so that we become inclined towards doing good works...

But the works don't regenerates and renew us...that is accomplished only by our faith in Jesus.



Should we just rip out of our Bibles Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6, and Ephesians 2:8-9?

I am not contending these things so that I can have an excuse to not be active in my faith.

I am contending for these things because they are sound doctrine.

I believe, also, that if someone knows that they are redeemed, they will be eternally grateful to the Lord for their salvation, and will act accordingly (Luke 7:36-50).

But how can someone know that they are saved if there is always one more work that they have to do in order to obtain or maintain their salvation?

And if there is not always one more work to be done, are you saying that a person can do just one good work and then rest from thereon in?

If that is the case, then I would simply say that calling on the name of the Lord is a work (even that work) and leave it at that.

Yes saved by the Lord unto good works!

 

[Heyzeus]

Some Bibles translate James 2:17 and James 2:20 as dead faith, others as worthless or useless faith. But it's clear that dead faith means useless or worthless faith.......

James 2:17
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:20
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless d ?

So, dead/useless for what? Useless for salvation........

James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Dead faith = NO FAITH. Dead faith is not the faith that saves. In your analogy it's the dead cow that can't give life to a person. It's still faith, but it's a useless faith like what demons have as James says in James 2:19.

'

What folks often do with this passage is ignore the first part .. where James talks about the "Royal Law" of Scripture -

16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

James states that getting rid of the moral filth -and accepting the teachings of Jesus - can save you.

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

The above parallels Matt 7:24 - 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

James 1 echos parts of the Sermon on the Mount - where works is emphasized as requisite to salvation.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. '

James 2 continues on this theme --

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

Ouch..

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. -

Both Jesus -James -and Paul all refer to the same Royal Law .. the Golden Rule- the above being on of the numerous restatements of this rule given in Matt 5-7 - Sermon on the Mount.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Judge not - again emphasizing the Golden Rule .. what refers to as "the Rule that sums up the Law and the Prophets" Matt 7:12

Then .. after emphasizing deeds over and over - not a word about faith in the sacrifice as a requirement .. he lets loose on some early Christians that were promoting a Faith alone doctrine ... which James goes on to call "Foolish".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Can you identify "what Works" a man does to Have Salvation?

The man who has salvation starts to do works in line with the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.

Can you identify exactly "what sin" a man (who is born of God) "did" and can no longer "do"?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were.

Galatians 5:19-21
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The person who believes in Christ can not go back and stay in these things again. He might dabble around in them again out of foolishness. Or be overwhelmed by some circumstance of trial and temptation and stumble into them again. But in the end he can't stay in those things. The believing person will come back to Christ. He can't believe in Christ and stay in his old life at the same time. So if a person finds they have gone back to these things to stay, that shows they are not believing in Christ. They are not ready to be judged by Jesus when he comes back.

 

[Heyzeus]

The man who has salvation does works in line with the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were.

Galatians 5:19-21
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The person who believes in Christ can not go back and stay in these things again. He might dabble around in them again out of foolishness. Or be overwhelmed by some circumstance of temptation and stumble into them again. But in the end he can't stay in those things. The believing person will come back to Christ. He can't believe in Christ and stay in his old life at the same time. So if a person finds they have gone back to these things to stay, that shows they are not believing in Christ. They are not ready to be judged by Jesus when he comes back.

Good post - although I baulk at using Pauline Scripture -when we have the words of Jesus to fall back on .. but, since some of these posters rely only on Pauline Scripture - completely ignoring the words of Jesus - as per the Synoptic Gospels an John - is good that you used Pauline Scripture.

The "Sola Fide" crowd believes that they will escape judgement on the basis of faith. This goes against the teachings of Jesus which state that we all must pass through judgement .. we will all be judged.

The question then is what the criteria for judgement will be ? - and in hundreds of instances in the Bible .. as stated directly from Jesus rather than from some fellow who never knew the man and tells us nothing about his life .

Yet - they will cling to some ambiguous passage - saying "look look - this looks to mean that we are saved by faith - and thus faith alone is scripture" while ignoring the vast amount of scripture from Jesus stating the contrary - in favor of some vague passage from a fellow that never knew the man.

What is worse - and happens often - is when these folks try to usurp the teachings of Jesus using Scripture such as Timothy - that was not even written by Paul .. Pseudepigrapha .. some fellow writing some stuff and attaching Paul's name to it .. in 150 AD.

 

[Taken]

Ferris Bueller-


You did not answer the question.

Can you identify exactly "what sin" a man (who is born of God) "did" and can no longer "do"?

 

[Taken]

Ferris Bueller

You did not answer the question.

Can you identify "what Works" a man does to Have Salvation?

 

[Heyzeus]

1) Can you identify "what Works" a man does to Have Salvation?



2) Can you identify exactly "what sin" a man (who is born of God) "did" and can no longer "do"?

Glory to God,
Taken

2) Nope - and who cares - as this is little help for question 1.

1) Jesus identifies the works that are required in the Sermon on the Mount ... you should read it Matt 5-7.

 

[Taken]

2) Nope - and who cares - as this is little help for question 1.

1) Jesus identifies the works that are required in the Sermon on the Mount ... you should read it Matt 5-7.

The question was not to you.
Nor am I without the answer.

 

[Heyzeus]

Nor am I without the answer.

Good that you now understand that "Sola Fide" is false doctrine