The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[David H.]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

 

[GISMYS_7]

God says,"I chose you you did not choose me
Romans 9:13 Context
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The simple little question many refuse to even think about=why did God choose Jacob but not Esau??? Who thinks God does anything for no reason? Answer= God is outside time and sees the beginning to the end in the now. God knew before Jacob was born that during his life Jacub would chose to believe and that Esau would chose to reject and the same is for all.

 

[David H.]

Answer= God is outside time and sees the beginning to the end in the now. God knew before Jacob was born that during his life Jacub would chose to believe and that Esau would chose to reject and the same is for all.

Would you consider Jacob a saint? Being a saint comes by the choosing of God.

God's sovereignty and foreknowledge is a given, we in the here and now must choose. The seed is cast on the ground and depending on what type of Ground we are that seed will grow. The seed is the word of God, "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God". When you begin to see this rightly the whole question of "OSAS" begins to resolve itself, and the idea of Perseverance of the saints (The P in TULIP) begins to have a whole new meaning as we all work out our faith with fear and trembling, till we all come to that blessed assurance of our salvation as is known of by the saints.

So Yes, God knew Esau would reject him, for His ground was not good, But Esau still had to live his life and reject God, just like Jacob would have to live his life and believe. Both had either option open to them just because God foreknew, he did not predetermine their actions.

The Gospel of grace was different than the old covenant with Israel in that it went abroad to "whosoever believeth", not just who was chosen, like Jacob and the Nation of Israel.

 

[marks]

A correct understanding of election eliminates the need for two "classes" of Christians. When you follow this idea that the "faithful" and the "saints" are two different groups, when you try to apply this to the details in the Bible, you will quickly see the error. This comes from a surface reading of a couple of verses, but cannot be supported by the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Is It God’s Will that None Should Perish?
2 Peter 3:1-9====but you are free to reject God and perish God does not FORCE anyone to believe!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

I have only ever met one other man so far in my life who saw there was a difference between holiness and righteousness so I’m a bit shocked that you’ve seen it. Maybe we are now ready to once again make a distinction between what is holy and what is not…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

DavidH, I was just having a private conversation and thought it might be something you could use to help with the direction you’re headed here, and I think it’s a very good direction! Here was part of the discussion. A friend of mine helped me greatly by sharing it with me awhile back.
———————

When God said to a man, go to a street called Straight, and the man argued with God, why was he not zapped dead?

And Annais and Saphira, why were they zapped dead? I’ve lied before and wasn’t zapped dead. And Uzzah, when he reached out to steady the ark?

Why did the man who argued with God escape with his life?

I think the answer is, a righteous man gets many chances and many stumbles but concerning the holiness of God, you get one chance. No sin is in holiness.

Why wasn’t Uzzah given a warning? Why didn’t he get a misstep? He reached out in concern that the holy ark (where God was) might fall over. That’s not a bad motive.

So was it Peter who killed Annais? Or was it the Holy Spirit of God that was in him and he was walking in at the time? He and his wife were trying to fall in with holy men, men who walked in the Spirit. They weren’t just like me and you in that the Spirit is in us. They also were in that place where God is that you talked about, walking in the Spirit.
The result, you read, is that men greatly respected the apostles but refused to join them.
So I see that as a good result. More men didn’t die but lived when they saw you don’t mess with Gods holiness. You don’t mess with the holiness of God. This is why a man can blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.

Was the man who argued with God about going to Straight a man walking in the holiness of God or was he just a righteous man? Should a man get zapped for lying to God but a man arguing with God not get zapped?

Moses argued with God and wasn’t zapped dead but later, he made one mistake and wasn’t allowed to enter the land. When he argued with God, he was just a righteous man. When he did not handle the holiness of God correctly, it was one chance you’re out. Uzzah also, one chance at handling holiness correctly and you’re out.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Who wants to question the judgment of Almighty God!! NOT WISE!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

[QUOTE

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ignore that, lol.

 

[David H.]

A correct understanding of election eliminates the need for two "classes" of Christians. When you follow this idea that the "faithful" and the "saints" are two different groups, when you try to apply this to the details in the Bible, you will quickly see the error. This comes from a surface reading of a couple of verses, but cannot be supported by the Scriptures.

Show me the scripture that supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint.

 

[David H.]

Show me the scripture that supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint.

Not sure why the line is through the text? I do not know how to remove it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That’s odd…hmm…

 

[Enoch111]

This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1).

I believe you are making an uncalled for distinction here. The saints are also the faithful and vice versa. Paul applies verses 2,3, and 4 to all since these are all the same Christians: 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"Blessed us" and "chosen us" applies to both "groups" (if that is even the correct term) So what are the saints chosen for? To be holy and without blame before God. This deals with the process of sanctification, which will ultimately lead to glorification. But God chooses none for justification, since He offers salvation to all (and God does not contradict Himself). So election and predestination are all about the perfection of those who were freely justified by God's grace.

 

[Enoch111]

Not sure why the line is through the text? I do not know how to remove it.

You probably hit the "remove formatting" or "use BB code editor" (all the way to the right) by mistake.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Show me the scripture that supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint.

Precious David, use "bb Code editor" (all the way to the right) and see this:

Show me the scripture [bracketed]Sthat supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint. [bracketed]/S

DELETE the "bracketed S" and the "/S" codes, then switch back to "Use Rich Text Editor"(lower left) = should do the trick

or the + sign (6 from the far right) "S Strike-through" changes S" and the "/S
to this: S" and the "/S

Be Encouraged OOPS Please Be Encouraged!

 

[Lambano]

Who wants to question the judgment of Almighty God!! NOT WISE!!

And yet sentient clay still says to the Potter, "Why have you made me thus?" because that's how the Potter made the clay. This is the Human Condition.

 

[Episkopos]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

This is exactly right. It's very strange that so few realize this.

 

[David H.]

I have only ever met one other man so far in my life who saw there was a difference between holiness and righteousness so I’m a bit shocked that you’ve seen it. Maybe we are now ready to once again make a distinction between what is holy and what is not…

See Malachi 3:16-18, Particularly verse 18.... This is what true fellowship leads to.

 

[Lambano]

The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

I have no objection to the concept that some Christians are called from their mothers' wombs (or from the Foundation of the World), and that others have freely chosen to join themselves to Christ in faith (though what does "predestination" mean to a God who created space and time and knows all free-will decisions His creatures will ever make?). However, I see no warrant for arbitrarily assigning the scriptural terms "saints" to one group and "believers" to the other in the New Testament writings as though the saints don't believe and the believers aren't holy.