The Fall from Heaven ?

[amadeus]

Sadly, the tradition of the scholars still hold fast. In Genesis 2:17, "mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ" is translated as "surely die," where as, "mō·wṯ" is translated as "die" else where in the Old Testament, so that the translation of "surely" for "mō·wṯ" needs to be questioned. "tā·mūṯ" on the other hand should be understood to have the meaning of "the second death" such that Genesis 2:17 is telling us, that Adam will die the second death something in the future at the appointed time. It does not tell us that he died the moment he ate from the tree. In Ezekiel 18? if my memory serves me right a person who is destined to die the second death, if he repents of his sins, he will gain everlasting life. A righteous man if he sins, will lose everlasting life and unless he repents he will die the second death at the appointed time.

If we all had to stand before God based on our self learned decisions based on our own understandings of the original languages in which scriptures were written then most of us would come up short. God knows this better than any of us and has provided the means to avoid this: The Holy Spirit in us. If we are to use the scriptures at all we must trust God to help us in the understanding of things our minds cannot.

You have given me no reason to presume that "surely die" should have the meaning you say it should. Based on context alone I would find it strange to see the word "second" inserted here. I read and study my Bibles regularly in English, German and Spanish and none of them give any indication of what you have suggested as even a possible meaning.

I know not much about the typical beliefs, if there are such [typical], with regard to the second death. What I have come to believe, is that everyone is dead until he has met Jesus and received the Life which Jesus is. This means we all were dead from the day we were born to our natural mothers until the day the dirt is shoveled onto our faces in the grave... unless in the interim we have met Jesus and received Life. The second death, as I see it, would only apply to someone who had received Life and then walked away from it in order to consume his own previously vomited ways.

Adam and Eve died when they ate the forbidden fruit as God said that they would. There is no reason for me to believe they lived at all in the eyes of God once they ate of the fruit.They were still walking around and they still had hope, but they were dead as we were dead before we met Jesus. Jesus came for a reason:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

The second death can be found mentioned throughout the Old and New Testaments, but the scholars have hidden it from view and only talk about death.

Shalom

The scholars have hidden it? Who could hide God's truth from the Holy Spirit in a man if the man was not quenching that Spirit in himself? There may be mistranslations or misinterpretations, but when the interpretation comes from God it is most certainly the truth.

I may well be wrong in something of what I believe because I have quenched the Spirit, but some man mistranslating what was written under God's inspiration would not alone would cause me to misunderstand if I was following the lead of the Holy Spirit. God controls the translation and the interpretation of written scripture and if we are able to hear Him then we will hear what He says to us about it without regard to any negative efforts of men, intentional or unintentional:

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4

 

[Jay Ross]

@amadeus. In the garden Satan denied that the second death even existed because he knew that the second death would not become a reality for over 7,000 years as it is recorded in Revelation 20 and 21. He was denying that it was also his destiny.

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they unwittingly made themselves and all of their descendants candidates for the second death at the appointed time of the Great White Throne Judgement which only occurs at the end of the Millennium Age just over 1,000 years from this present time.

The Bible is silent as to whether or not God redeemed Adam and Eve of their sin before they left the Garden of Eden, but we do know that the consequences of their sin had an impact on their lives.

You can read all the English or German or Spanish translations that you like but they will reflect the tradition of the scholars who could not get their laughing matter around the fact that the second death was in their distant future. Even for us, we find it difficult to comprehend that if we are unrighteous that we will die the second death.

With that being said, changing our understanding is often the hardest thing for any of us to do.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

While Cain is certainly a murderer, what about his natural parents? Did they not kill themselves and their children when they disobeyed God?

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

They did disobey and eat of the forbidden tree and they died and were not all of the children born to those already dead parents then also dead? Then to me it would seem that Adam was the first murderer and his own adversary or satan, the devil.



So then by "literally" perhaps you mean carnally or physically. What then if Adam is the first devil or the first adversary of mankind? In other words, man is opposed to himself... that is, the old man who is mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4 is opposed to the new man. The reborn man is at war with that same old man.

Is there an entity outside of man himself? I won't say, 'nay', but I would be equally slow to say, 'yea'.
Again, if we stay on the Lord's side, does it matter what name is given to the adversary so long as that adversary is defeated?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Cain was the first murderer; he murdered his brother Abel, as written. That did not make Adam a murderer, nor a devil, so I don't know what you're driving at.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no reason for me to believe they lived at all in the eyes of God once they ate of the fruit.

why give them a skin then?

God controls the translation

why warn about scribes then?
God put Easter in the Bible?

 

[bbyrd009]

which only occurs at the end of the Millennium Age just over 1,000 years from this present time.

boy, you sound pretty sure of your timeline here

The Bible is silent as to whether or not God redeemed Adam and Eve of their sin

i would say that It is not silent on this at all, and that all of the elements for redemption are present in the account

 

[bbyrd009]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Cain was the first murderer; he murdered his brother Abel, as written. That did not make Adam a murderer, nor a devil, so I don't know what you're driving at.

i'm surprised i didn't object there myself, lol. Still don't though; Cain was Adam's first-born, etc, so i think the perspective can be fruitful; Adam "fathered" murder, so to speak

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus. In the garden Satan denied that the second death even existed because he knew that the second death would not become a reality for over 7,000 years as it is recorded in Revelation 20 and 21. He was denying that it was also his destiny.

That is your understanding and while I appreciate it is what you believe, you still have failed to explain why it speaks of a second death and not simply death [or even a 1st death]. There is nothing there to indicate "second". The only place in scripture to specify the "second death" is as you note in the Book of Revelation. A person should not expect that others will follow him simply because he believes it. Many people expect that and worse many other people simply follow because it sounds good. Following you or me will get people into trouble. We must all follow Jesus. If you or me are teaching correctly, then will not others be able to discern what is correct [or is not] if they are really asking of God?

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they unwittingly made themselves and all of their descendants candidates for the second death at the appointed time of the Great White Throne Judgement which only occurs at the end of the Millennium Age just over 1,000 years from this present time.

They wittingly [Adam certainly and Eve likely as well] disobeyed God and they may not have understood what God meant by death, they knew He did not approved of their disobedience. Again you are saying their action related to a second death without even superficially explaining why much less by scripture. If it is simply by your own faith without scriptural support, then admit that. If it is by scripture then please provide that. If you do not want to amplify or cannot then it is no loss to admit that. Who knows all of the answers? Certainly not me but God alone.

The Bible is silent as to whether or not God redeemed Adam and Eve of their sin before they left the Garden of Eden, but we do know that the consequences of their sin had an impact on their lives.

The only Life for those who are dead, including Adam and Eve, is Jesus. It is not so simply explained for them as it might be for us because in their time as creatures of flesh Jesus had not yet been born of flesh not had He died and resurrected. OT salvation, I believe, exists, but it may not be so simple to understand so we leave it...

You can read all the English or German or Spanish translations that you like but they will reflect the tradition of the scholars who could not get their laughing matter around the fact that the second death was in their distant future. Even for us, we find it difficult to comprehend that if we are unrighteous that we will die the second death.

I agree that they [all of the scriptures in all of the languages and versions] reflect the attitudes of the men who wrote the scriptures from the first, but within their words is the inspiration of God. To receive the truth from those inspired writings a person reading or studying or hearing MUST have a connection with God: That is to say the person who is to be receive truth must also be inspired by God. This today comes through the Holy Spirit in the person.

With that being said, changing our understanding is often the hardest thing for any of us to do.

We cannot change our own understanding. Only God can do that and even He is blocked from doing if we quench His Spirit in us. God gave us the authority, the dominion over ourselves, and to be cleansed and to be changed and to grow closer to God we must give the reins to ourselves back to Him as often as it is necessary to do so. That is how what men call "free will" continues after a person has met Jesus. Until we have reached the end of our course [our allotted time here] it will be so.

Shalom

Shalom!

 

[amadeus]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Cain was the first murderer; he murdered his brother Abel, as written. That did not make Adam a murderer, nor a devil, so I don't know what you're driving at.

Is suicide not a type of murder?

As for Adam being a devil consider:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

"And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it." Luke 4:6

 

[amadeus]

why give them a skin then?

They were dead to God, but NOT without hope. God touches on the hope here:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen 3:15

The skins provided were also a token of hope and an actual temporary protection [covering and/or a type or shadow of] against the difficulties which they now faced. When Jesus came and the Holy Ghost was poured out the best and final and real covering for those willing to receive what was given.

Jesus confirms that everyone without the Life that Jesus Himself brings is dead:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

why warn about scribes then?

The Bible itself is often a seeming indecipherable parable. When Jesus was on the mountain top with satan, as satan tempted Jesus he actually quoted scripture to Jesus. Jesus used scripture properly to put satan in his proper place. Scripture can be and too often is misused. It takes more than "sola scriptura" to get at the truth, does it not?

God put Easter in the Bible?

Even the apparent errors or contradictions in the written scriptures as man sees them have their purpose in God's plan. He made it difficult and even impossible for man alone to receive God's messages to men. Man have to ask for and receive help to get the meat of the matter. But when someone humbles himself admitting his own weakness and inabilities to accomplish God's purpose alone, God will provide the necessary answers and help:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11

 

[Davy]

i'm surprised i didn't object there myself, lol. Still don't though; Cain was Adam's first-born, etc, so i think the perspective can be fruitful; Adam "fathered" murder, so to speak

I don't see that. Cain did murder, not Adam.

 

[Davy]

Is suicide not a type of murder?

As for Adam being a devil consider:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

"And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it." Luke 4:6

Those verses have nothing... to do with any idea that Adam could be a devil. Your speculation is wild and un-Biblical. I suggest you stick closely to God's Holy Writ as written and not speculate. Understanding in all of God's Word is required before one could speculate on it anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

"those verses have nothing."
but it's ok for you to speculate at will, apparently?

I don't see that. Cain did murder, not Adam.

it is just another perspective, and valid enough as far as it goes imo.
Adam as "the father of murder" is a valid perspective, at least once he has "eaten the fruit."

 

[Davy]

it is just another perspective, and valid enough as far as it goes imo.
Adam as "the father of murder" is a valid perspective

It's speculation, and it's not Biblical.

The reason is because like Apostle John said, the devil sinned from the beginning. In other words, Satan's original rebellion against God was the very first sin, and thus is why Jesus Christ was sent into this world to die on the cross to be a perfect sacrifice for sin. By that, Satan became the father of sin, and thus murder. This is why Jesus in John 8 pointed to the devil as a murderer, and the father of lies.

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV

 

[Jay Ross]

That is your understanding and while I appreciate it is what you believe, you still have failed to explain why it speaks of a second death and not simply death [or even a 1st death]. There is nothing there to indicate "second". The only place in scripture to specify the "second death" is as you note in the Book of Revelation. A person should not expect that others will follow him simply because he believes it. Many people expect that and worse many other people simply follow because it sounds good. Following you or me will get people into trouble. We must all follow Jesus. If you or me are teaching correctly, then will not others be able to discern that is correct [or is not] if they are really asking of God?


They wittingly [Adam certainly and Eve likely as well] disobeyed God and they may not have understood what God meant by death, they knew He did not approved of their disobedience. Again you are saying their action related to a second death without even superficially explaining why much less by scripture. If it is simply by your own faith without scriptural support, then admit that. If it is by scripture then please provide that. If you do not want to amplify or cannot then it is no loss to admit that. Who knows all of the answers? Certainly not me but God alone.


The only Life for those who are dead, including Adam and Eve, is Jesus. It is not so simply explained for them as it might be for us because in their time as creatures of flesh Jesus had not yet been born of flesh not had He died and resurrected. OT salvation, I believe, exists, but it may not be so simple to understand so we leave it...


I agree that they [all of the scriptures in all of the languages and versions] reflect the attitudes of the men who wrote the scriptures from the first, but within their words is the inspiration of God. To receive the truth from those inspired writings a person reading or studying or hearing MUST have a connection with God: That is to say the person who is to be receive truth must also be inspired by God. This today comes through the Holy Spirit in the person.


We cannot change our own understanding. Only God can do that and even He is blocked from doing if we quench His Spirit in us. God gave us the authority, the dominion over ourselves, and to be cleansed and to be changed and to grow closer to God we must give the reins to ourselves back to Him as often as it is necessary to do so. That is how what men call "free will" continues after a person has met Jesus. Until we have reached the end of our course [our allotted time here] it will be so.


Shalom!

The problem we have is that the Hebrew and the Greek texts differentiate between physical death and the second death by using different words for both. Sadly English translations only use one word, death, to cover both types of death and that makes it very difficult for us to see the second death mentioned in the English translations.

People try and explain it by speaking of a "spiritual death" but that explanation does not help either for us to understand the second death and the consequences of sinning.

Shalom

 

[bbyrd009]

It's speculation, and it's not Biblical.

that is your opinion, but that does not negate any truth in the matter, chiefly that Adam is responsible as a father for siring Cain, and Cain doing murder would obviously reflect upon Adam.

wadr you have already stated that you are not even aware of what Word is, so while you are entitled to your opinion, we do not all have to share in it

 

[amadeus]

Those verses have nothing... to do with any idea that Adam could be a devil. Your speculation is wild and un-Biblical. I suggest you stick closely to God's Holy Writ as written and not speculate. Understanding in all of God's Word is required before one could speculate on it anyway.

It may well be unorthodox, but it is just as biblical as the separate devil entity. Many Protestants separated from their formal connection with Catholicism. This does not mean that they necessarily separated themselves from every Catholic error.

 

[amadeus]

The problem we have is that the Hebrew and the Greek texts differentiate between physical death and the second death by using different words for both. Sadly English translations only use one word, death, to cover both types of death and that makes it very difficult for us to see the second death mentioned in the English translations.

People try and explain it by speaking of a "spiritual death" but that explanation does not help either for us to understand the second death and the consequences of sinning.

Shalom

Well you must go with where you are and what you believe. I have no problem with understanding that death simply means the end of all perceptions for the one dead. The one who remains alive physically calls what he has "life" but from what I read in the scriptures God does not. This walking dead man is dead to God and cannot perceive the things of God. He has only his five physical senses and perhaps a thought process, but with those alone he cannot find God.

Notice that I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying that I believe that I am right but then, who does not?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

As I understand it, God is not looking at so much what doctrines each person holds, but rather why he holds them what he does with those and with everything that has been given to him as one of God's stewards...

 

[Jay Ross]

@amadeus

In a previous post I pointed to Ezekiel 18 as it talks about who are those that will live or die at the appointed time of their judgement.

This chapter talks about, a wicked man who is destine to the second death at the appointed time, that if he repents of his iniquities, and turns towards God such that he then keeps God's statutes, then instead of dying the second death at the appointed time, that he will gain eternal live at this appointed time.

This chapter also talks about a righteous man who is destined to gain eternal life at the appointed time, will, if he sins and commits iniquity, then be destined to die the second death at the appointed time of his judgement unless he repents of his sins before he physically dies and takes his last breath.

Our gaining of eternal life or being cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death is very much a future event and is just over 1,000 solar years into our future. You and I will experience a physical death before that time and will have to wait for the appointed time of our judgement at the time of the Great white throne judgement seat. There we will wait for the books to reveal whether or not we are recorded as being righteous or not.

Remember that our hearts are very deceiving and has the ability cover over our iniquities such that we do not perceive them at all while we live.

However, if we as sinners press into God and renew our mind such that it is a reflection of God's mind that he would have us have, and we take on the renewed natured and live in true holiness and righteous then we have no fear of the time of the appointed judgement which every person must face.

I believe this is very different to what you are presenting.

Shalom

PS: - the above is just a thumb nail sketch of the process of gaining everlasting life at the appointed time. I understand that others will want to add or subtract or both, from what I have written, but I believe that the above is the gist of what God reveals about His heart and desire for mankind.

 

[Jay Ross]

boy, you sound pretty sure of your timeline here

The YEP movement is in full swing on this.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus

In a previous post I pointed to Ezekiel 18 as it talks about who are those that will live or die at the appointed time of their judgement.

This chapter talks about, a wicked man who is destine to the second death at the appointed time, that if he repents of his iniquities, and turns towards God such that he then keeps God's statutes, then instead of dying the second death at the appointed time, that he will gain eternal live at this appointed time.

You have inserted a lot of details with which I have little familiarity. Oh, I know the scriptures as I have been reading all of the Bible for a very long time. I simply read and pray. Once in a while God impresses me to read or study outside of my routine reading [geared to read all of the Bible on a regular basis] and I do. Once in a while God impresses a new insight or understanding on me. This is the Holy Spirit bringing to Life the dead words consumed. My physical mind is limited outside of what God impresses [writes] on my heart. Do I need more than I have? If I do and I ask of Him from the heart will He refuse me? Not if it is really needed some purpose of His, He will not.

You want to perhaps change the perception I have of many things including apparently what the second death is, or is not. I won't say it cannot happen. Anything that God wills can happen if I do not oppose Him.

This chapter also talks about a righteous man who is destined to gain eternal life at the appointed time, will, if he sins and commits iniquity, then be destined to die the second death at the appointed time of his judgement unless he repents of his sins before he physically dies and takes his last breath.

I still do not see what you are saying. Yes, I have read Ezekiel 18, but without receiving what you have received. The second death is the hang up place. I don't believe it I am certain as most orthodox believers do, but also apparently not as you do either. I am the old dog that can learn new tricks, but not easily because I am old. The only things that come easily to me are those that God writes on my heart. This is I would suppose why Paul writes that God "gives the increase". He may use a man as an instrument of that writing, but no man should presume that he will be so used simply because he wants to be.

I read what you are writing but I do not really understand what you are saying.

Our gaining of eternal life or being cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death is very much a future event and is just over 1,000 solar years into our future. You and I will experience a physical death before that time and will have to wait for the appointed time of our judgement at the time of the Great white throne judgement seat. There we will wait for the books to reveal whether or not we are recorded as being righteous or not.

Our gaining of eternal Life is a future event? Must it be so? What would stop a person from gaining it today? What if a person has already become the overcomer that Jesus wants him to be even before the dirt is shoveled onto his face? Would he not them immediately do able to eat of the Tree of Life and never die?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God? Rev 2:7.

If a person believes in Jesus exactly as he means it before the dirt is shoveled onto his face, why would he then ever have to die?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

Why would such a one need to wait that 1,000 year period... for what?

Remember that our hearts are very deceiving and has the ability cover over our iniquities such that we do not perceive them at all while we live.

The heart and mind of man without God is where the deception lies. If however a person had come to love correctly the truth and continues to do so, why would he ever be deceived?

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thess 2:10-12

However, if we as sinners press into God and renew our mind such that it is a reflection of God's mind that he would have us have, and we take on the renewed natured and live in true holiness and righteous then we have no fear of the time of the appointed judgement which every person must face.

We as sinners should have surrendered to God and if we did or if we do then He would have led us along the correct pathway for us to obtain what He had for us. God already loved, but when we did this and have continued to do this, then we have shown our love for Him.

People who have encountered God, as I see, too often want to keep taking hold of their own reins and walking along their own chosen pathway to God. God is the One who should be doing all of the choosing, but He is merciful sometimes will even for a moment bless such misguided ways.

Eventually, however, holding onto our own reins must stop if we are ever to be one with Him. The ingredients for final judgment are in place when we either overcome as Jesus overcame or we have believed exactly as God intended for us to believe.... or when we have effectively elected some other way according to the ways of men with all of the rewards or lack thereof [curses] which would apply.

I believe this is very different to what you are presenting.

Yes, it seems to be different, but I do not really understand your position well so it is difficult for me to describe precisely any differences. I presume that God will show me if I really do need to know.

Shalom]

Shalom.

PS: - the above is just a thumb nail sketch of the process of gaining everlasting life at the appointed time. I understand that others will want to add or subtract or both, from what I have written, but I believe that the above is the gist of what God reveals about His heart and desire for mankind.

I have nothing more to add at this time to my above inserted comments.

May God richly bless you as you walk along the pathway He has for you.