was it Lucifer or Satan that fell - were either of them once numbered among the sons of God that sang the praises of GOD - what caused this fall and who says so - twinc
The Fall from Heaven ?
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Davy
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You'll find the answer to that in Isaiah 14, where God is pointing to Satan.
Satan's sin in the beginning of coveting God's Throne is also found in Ezekiel 28, with God using the prince and king of Tyrus as types for Satan. His original job before he rebelled was to guard the Mercy Seat of God's Throne. That what his being a cherub that covereth means. He was originally like one of the outstretched winged cherubim of Exod.25 that God told the Israelites how to make a model with the Ark of the Covenant.
Lucifer comes from the Latin, and is another title for Satan. The KJV translators added it in the Isaiah 14:12 verse for clarity.
Satan's sin in the beginning of coveting God's Throne is also found in Ezekiel 28, with God using the prince and king of Tyrus as types for Satan. His original job before he rebelled was to guard the Mercy Seat of God's Throne. That what his being a cherub that covereth means. He was originally like one of the outstretched winged cherubim of Exod.25 that God told the Israelites how to make a model with the Ark of the Covenant.
Lucifer comes from the Latin, and is another title for Satan. The KJV translators added it in the Isaiah 14:12 verse for clarity.
was Satan/Lucifer a son of God but not His beloved son - did he have sons/children - twinc
Davy
Well-Known Member
Don't know where you are geting that idea that Satan had a son; it is nowhere written in God's Word. The angelic state does not produce flesh children, nor other heavenly beings.
Unless of course you happen to believe that the devil is the same as satan as per Revelation and then as per John that the devil was a father:
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev 12:9
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44
"he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18
What causes anyone to fall from a place with God [heaven?] to some lower place?
Where then is heaven?
Davy
Well-Known Member
So you are speaking of the Serpent Seed doctrine of men?
Satan didn't literaly father children anymore than God Himself did. The Gen.3:15 idea about Satan's seed is spiritual.
I have never heard of the doctrine to which you give a name: Serpent Seed doctrine.
What does the word, "literally" mean? If it means real, what if the only reality is God and that which is of God while every thing else is a delusion with no "real" basis?
Davy
Well-Known Member
The abode of the wicked called hell, or hades, is in the heavenly dimension.
There's only two different dimensions written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God's Abode is, and where Satan's abode also is, and the prison of Isaiah 42:7 in the heavenly.
God had to have parted the abodes in the heavenly after Satan rebelled against Him, creating the abode of hell (the separation is actually mentioned in Gen.1 if one looks closely).
For the end of this world, Satan and his angels are to be cast out of the heavenly, down to this earth (Rev.12:7 forward). The meaning is cast out of the heavenly dimension, because the Scripture reveals a peace in heaven then since Satan is no longer there nor able to accuse us before God's Throne.
Per Rev.20, the abode of hell is to go into the lake of fire and be no more. So that realm will no longer exist after Satan is destroyed.
Davy
Well-Known Member
In the John 8 Scripture where our Lord Jesus accused the scribes and Pharisees of having their father being the devil, and of Cain (since Cain was the first murderer), some believe that refers back to the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 about the emnity between the Seed of the Woman, and Satan's seed:
Gen 3:14-15
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV
Some believe that to be about literal physical seed, that Satan mated with Eve being the actual original sin of Genesis. In Matthew 13 where Jesus gave the parable of the tares of the field, that idea pops up again when He explained to His disciples the meaning of the parable:
Matt 13:38-39
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
KJV
Some believe that literally... took place, which is what the Serpent Seed doctrine is about. I believe it to be meant spiritually, about spiritual seed, although I do recognize per Jude 1 that God had ordained a group of workers on this earth who were condemned to the work against Christ Jesus. Those I refer to as Paul's "mystery of iniquity" and "workers of iniquity" of the Old Testament.
so who exactly was Nimrod and the mighty men[giants] of old and the sons of God and the daughters of men etc - btw how about Jn 10:34 - twinc
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bbyrd009
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depends where you are quoting from, i guess; it was 2 diff kings who fell in Isaiah and Ezekiel, the most common refs for that, even though most ppl still read "satan" into the text there i guess, thanks to Queenie
"Lucifer" comes only by way of translation thru Greek, and theologists are not sure if the root is הלל (halal, "to shine or radiate," the most common acceptance) or ילל (yalal, "wailing"). The amazing name Lucifer: meaning and etymology
So apparently Lucifer could have been used as a proper name in antiquity, but only for Venus? hmm, interesting half-hour though, ty
of course now satan = Lucifer anyway i guess
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What I have seen is the blind are all of those who are unable to see God's truth. That included you and me before we met Jesus and received the gift of the Holy Ghost:
"Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov 29:18
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
The prison is the connection and subservience to sin. We also have been prisoners in that prison. Have we not now been empowered to move to a place of improved vision with the chains that bound us removed? Satan of course is our adversary... the one who opposes God and who opposes us when we are on God's side. What satan is exactly may at times be disputed among believers, but so long as we are working with all we have to please God, how important is the essence of satan?
"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31
Sounds a bit like annihilationism to me. But that's OK as it is where I am.
I am careful to state too certainly what I believe if it will unnecessarily cause division among brethren. What is really necessary is to put on the charity [love] described here:
"Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." I Cor 13:4-7
bbyrd009
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...or for something anyway, ya--can't help but be minded here of what "talent" means now, prolly via the same method; scribes
Hello,
Firstly: - Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven and onto the face of the earth.
Per Revelation 20, as soon as he is cast down to the face of the earth he will be imprisoned in the locked bottomless pit/abyss for 1,000 years.
Secondly: - The abyss is first mentioned in Genesis 1:2
Genesis 1:1-2: - 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness/evil was on the face of the deep/abyss. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
As such Hades is an abyss here on the earth hidden by Satan.
Thirdly: - who is also imprisoned with Satan in the Bottomless pit?
Isaiah 24:21-22: -
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the {wicked fallen} host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
The wicked fallen heavenly hosts also include the Beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, including the Little Horn Beast.
Fourthly: - The judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts take place during the event at Armageddon for the kings of the earth on the face of the earth. The Battle in heaven has been going on for just on two ages and it began when Jesus' first advent began.
The signs and wonders to draw the Kings of the earth to Armageddon happened in our recent past, 2001, and around 40 years or so will past before we see the kings of the earth coming together at Armageddon where they will be judged by Christ. Luke 14:31-32.
Fifthly: - The final trigger for the kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon will be Israel's attempt, with the encouragement of miss guided Christians, to rebuild the Temple. Luke 14:28-30
Sixthly: - It is during the time of these kings that God will establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth. At the same time, a rock, not cut by human hands will come down out of heaven and will become the highest mountain on the earth.
Seventhly: - After 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit/abyss will be unlocked and Satan will realise that his time is short. He will enter into a solemn covenant with many for 7 years. He will march over the face of the earth causing great tribulation, killing the saints who will not worship him, before finally come against Jerusalem. Jesus then deals first with the Four facetted beast who as well as its image is being worshipped along with the little horn beast, the False Prophet, and dispatching them into the Lake of Fire and finally he goes against Satan in battle/judgement, captures him and then throws Satan into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are.
Eighthly: - The judgement of all the peoples and nations of the earth will occur where flock will be separated from flock and then the Sheep will be separated from the Goats.
Finally: - Then death as a result of sin and hades/the abyss will be also dispatched into the Lake of Fire so that Hades and Sin will no longer exist on the earth.
So Satan at present can be found in heaven accusing the saints. In our near future, he will be cast out of heaven.
Firstly: - Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven and onto the face of the earth.
Per Revelation 20, as soon as he is cast down to the face of the earth he will be imprisoned in the locked bottomless pit/abyss for 1,000 years.
Secondly: - The abyss is first mentioned in Genesis 1:2
Genesis 1:1-2: - 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness/evil was on the face of the deep/abyss. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
As such Hades is an abyss here on the earth hidden by Satan.
Thirdly: - who is also imprisoned with Satan in the Bottomless pit?
Isaiah 24:21-22: -
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the {wicked fallen} host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
The wicked fallen heavenly hosts also include the Beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, including the Little Horn Beast.
Fourthly: - The judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts take place during the event at Armageddon for the kings of the earth on the face of the earth. The Battle in heaven has been going on for just on two ages and it began when Jesus' first advent began.
The signs and wonders to draw the Kings of the earth to Armageddon happened in our recent past, 2001, and around 40 years or so will past before we see the kings of the earth coming together at Armageddon where they will be judged by Christ. Luke 14:31-32.
Fifthly: - The final trigger for the kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon will be Israel's attempt, with the encouragement of miss guided Christians, to rebuild the Temple. Luke 14:28-30
Sixthly: - It is during the time of these kings that God will establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth. At the same time, a rock, not cut by human hands will come down out of heaven and will become the highest mountain on the earth.
Seventhly: - After 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit/abyss will be unlocked and Satan will realise that his time is short. He will enter into a solemn covenant with many for 7 years. He will march over the face of the earth causing great tribulation, killing the saints who will not worship him, before finally come against Jerusalem. Jesus then deals first with the Four facetted beast who as well as its image is being worshipped along with the little horn beast, the False Prophet, and dispatching them into the Lake of Fire and finally he goes against Satan in battle/judgement, captures him and then throws Satan into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are.
Eighthly: - The judgement of all the peoples and nations of the earth will occur where flock will be separated from flock and then the Sheep will be separated from the Goats.
Finally: - Then death as a result of sin and hades/the abyss will be also dispatched into the Lake of Fire so that Hades and Sin will no longer exist on the earth.
So Satan at present can be found in heaven accusing the saints. In our near future, he will be cast out of heaven.
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In the parable of the talents it means money. Why? Because money can be used to oppress people to interfere with and to stop them worship God. Remember the Good servants are Satan's earthly helpers.
While Cain is certainly a murderer, what about his natural parents? Did they not kill themselves and their children when they disobeyed God?
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17
They did disobey and eat of the forbidden tree and they died and were not all of the children born to those already dead parents then also dead? Then to me it would seem that Adam was the first murderer and his own adversary or satan, the devil.
So then by "literally" perhaps you mean carnally or physically. What then if Adam is the first devil or the first adversary of mankind? In other words, man is opposed to himself... that is, the old man who is mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4 is opposed to the new man. The reborn man is at war with that same old man.
Is there an entity outside of man himself? I won't say, 'nay', but I would be equally slow to say, 'yea'.
Again, if we stay on the Lord's side, does it matter what name is given to the adversary so long as that adversary is defeated?
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101G
Well-Known Member
first thanks for your post. the first answer is NO. the second answer is YES, spiritually, not biologically.
PCY.
Sadly, the tradition of the scholars still hold fast. In Genesis 2:17, "mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ" is translated as "surely die," where as, "mō·wṯ" is translated as "die" else where in the Old Testament, so that the translation of "surely" for "mō·wṯ" needs to be questioned. "tā·mūṯ" on the other hand should be understood to have the meaning of "the second death" such that Genesis 2:17 is telling us, that Adam will die the second death something in the future at the appointed time. It does not tell us that he died the moment he ate from the tree. In Ezekiel 18? if my memory serves me right a person who is destined to die the second death, if he repents of his sins, he will gain everlasting life. A righteous man if he sins, will lose everlasting life and unless he repents he will die the second death at the appointed time.
The second death can be found mentioned throughout the Old and New Testaments, but the scholars have hidden it from view and only talk about death.
Shalom
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