The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

[Hobie]

Sorry Hobie, but you are wrong.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Perhaps I will return to post about the intermediate state following physical death and before the resurrection.

I will just make the point here that Lazarus was not resurrected, rather, he was raised from the dead. He did not come back with a spiritual body. Instead Jesus returned life to his physical body.

Ok, lets look at the definition of resurrect

res·ur·rect
restore (a dead person) to life.
"he was dead, but he was resurrected"

Similar:
raise from the dead

restore to life

bring back to life

revive

• revive the practice, use, or memory of (something); bring new vigor to.
  "the deal collapsed and has yet to be resurrected"
  
  
  

 

[Hobie]

Lazarus was resurrected as he was brought back to life, much like the first fruits that came up later from their graves.

Matthew 27:51-53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 11:40-44
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Hobie]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This was covered but basically this is saying that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time.

 

[Cassandra]

Great error (sin) to try to deny the truth of God's Word to try to support little men's ideas and opinions=======

Luke 9:28-30​

Jesus Talks with Moses and Elijah​

28 About eight days after Jesus said these things, he took Peter, John, and James and went up on a mountain to pray. 29 While Jesus was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became shining white. 30 Then two men, Moses and Elijah,[a] were talking with Jesus.

Elijah was translated, and Moses was resurrected. And the thief on the cross did not die the same day Jesus did, so he was not in paradise "today"
For I say unto you today, You shall be with me in Paradise. Punctuation isn't inspired even though the word is.

 

[Cassandra]

This was covered but basically this is saying that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time.

But don't you folk believe the soul is immortal? How can it be destroyed in hell?

 

[Hobie]

if you look you will see the word is the Greek word for "soul" (psuche) here used in Matthew 10:28 means "life." It is the same word that is used four times in Matthew 16:25, 26.
Matthew 16:26
25 For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)?

In the King James Version it is translated "life" in verse 25 and "soul" in verse 26: "For whosoever will save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul [psuche]? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul [psuche]?" Note how the translators have varied the translation of the same Greek word. Verse 25 indicates that one could lose his soul for Christ's sake. That would not be possible if the soul were an immortal entity within man.

You can see this in Youngs Literal Translation...

Matthew 16:25-27
Young's Literal Translation​

25 for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake shall find it,
26 for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

 

[Hobie]

But don't you folk believe the soul is immortal? How can it be destroyed in hell?

You have to understand what Christ says that He is the resurrection and the life. The life is what He can restore, so even if you die and turn to dust, He can bring you back to life. So there is no life without God, the devil can kill you and the body turn to dust, but only God can destroy both your body and any chance to bring you back to life. The Jews believed as Christians did but have confused the issue with pagan Greek thought, that God could give back life even if the body died, thus we see Martha saying to Christ the following..

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And Christs answer..

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[Cassandra]

You have to understand what Christ says that He is the resurrection and the life. The life is what He can restore, so even if you die and turn to dust, He can bring you back to life. So there is no life without God, the devil can kill you and the body turn to dust, but only God can destroy both your body and any chance to bring you back to life. The Jews believed as Christians did but have confused the issue with pagan Greek thought, that God could give back life even if the body died, thus we see Martha saying to Christ the following..

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And Christs answer..

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Hobie, I wasn't asking you. I happen to be the same faith as you. Many times I had commented on your threads, agreeing with you. You must not read what I have to say.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

So,as a relative new arrival still I find I have to ask this.

Are threads calling Gospel teachings false teachings commonplace here?

If the soul isn't immortal then the spirit isn't either,right?


Genesis 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Hobie]

Hobie, I wasn't asking you. I happen to be the same faith as you. Many times I had commented on your threads, agreeing with you. You must not read what I have to say.

I will keep that in mind on your posts..

 

[Hobie]

So,as a relative new arrival still I find I have to ask this.

Are threads calling Gospel teachings false teachings commonplace here?

If the soul isn't immortal then the spirit isn't either,right?


Genesis 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, its just that with the Greek Thought that infiltrated it got confused, and many Christians think they are immortal when the Bible and clearly Christ does not teach that. We went over the spirit but here is a good explanation...

'The body plus the breath of life produced a living soul. The word for "breath" in Genesis 2:7 is neshamah in the Hebrew original and pnoe in the Greek translation (the Septuagint). These words mean "breath, wind."(3) The breath that God breathed into the inanimate body gave it life. This same breath of life is spoken of in Job 33:4: "The spirit [ruach] of God has made me, and the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life." The breath of life (neshamah) is, therefore, the spirit (ruach) that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. The word ruach means "breath, spirit, wind." Referring to himself during life, Job said, ". . . as long as my breath [neshamah] is in me and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils. . . ." (Job. 27:3). Once again the "breath" and the "spirit" are identified. When this spirit or breath returns to God the individual dies: "If he [God] should take back his spirit to himself, and gather to himself his breath, all flesh would perish together, and all mortals return to dust" (Job 34:14, 15).'

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

No, its just that with the Greek Thought that infiltrated it got confused, and many Christians think they are immortal when the Bible and clearly Christ does not teach that. We went over the spirit but here is a good explanation...

'The body plus the breath of life produced a living soul. The word for "breath" in Genesis 2:7 is neshamah in the Hebrew original and pnoe in the Greek translation (the Septuagint). These words mean "breath, wind."(3) The breath that God breathed into the inanimate body gave it life. This same breath of life is spoken of in Job 33:4: "The spirit [ruach] of God has made me, and the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life." The breath of life (neshamah) is, therefore, the spirit (ruach) that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. The word ruach means "breath, spirit, wind." Referring to himself during life, Job said, ". . . as long as my breath [neshamah] is in me and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils. . . ." (Job. 27:3). Once again the "breath" and the "spirit" are identified. When this spirit or breath returns to God the individual dies: "If he [God] should take back his spirit to himself, and gather to himself his breath, all flesh would perish together, and all mortals return to dust" (Job 34:14, 15).'

Thanks for that link too.

 

[Pierac]

Elijah was translated, and Moses was resurrected. And the thief on the cross did not die the same day Jesus did, so he was not in paradise "today"
For I say unto you today, You shall be with me in Paradise. Punctuation isn't inspired even though the word is.

Your both wrong!!!
Scripture must interpret scripture...

So What about the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah present? Luke 9:30 Does this verse not suggest Moses and Elijah were physically present?
Luk 9:29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face was transformed, and his clothes became very bright, a brilliant white.
30 Then two men, Moses and Elijah, began talking with him. 31 They appeared in glorious splendor and spoke about his departure that he was about to carry out at Jerusalem.


Yet we know from scripture..... The transfiguration of Jesus was a vision.... a way in which God reveals a message to us.

Jesus explaines this to us in speaking about the transfiguration spoken of in Luke 9:30... Jesus teaches.... in Matthew 17:9:


"As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, ‘Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

A vision is not reality, it is a way in which God communicates or instructs us. In the transfiguration, the message was intended for Peter, James, and John.

Let’s take a look at some other visions. Genesis 15:1 says:

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abraham in a vision."

"Daniel had a dream as he lay in bed, and was terrified by the visions of his mind" (Daniel 7:1).

Daniel then goes on to describe his vision which includes four beasts, one that looks like a lion with eagle wings etc. This is an excellent example of a vision. God is revealing a message to Daniel, the details are not necessarily reality, it is the message that is important. The message in this case is about the end times. God many times uses symbols to get his point across. But there are not going to be four actual beasts that look like a lion with eagle wings etc.

The purpose of the vision of the transfiguration was to confirm to Peter, James, and John that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. The New American Bible states on this verse:

"Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Mount Sinai. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory."

It was a vision. It would be irresponsible to use this episode for any other purpose than what it was intended for...

Part 1... we will deal with Elijah next...

Your welcome,
Paul

 

[Pierac]

Part 2 Elijah...

Now, your thinking.... what about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth.

This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab’s vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:

"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus’ statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven." Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man’s interpretation of this verse is wrong?

Again, your welcome

 

[Hobie]

Part 2 Elijah...

Now, your thinking.... what about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth.

This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab’s vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:

"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus’ statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven." Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man’s interpretation of this verse is wrong?

Again, your welcome

Well were did Elijah go, he certainly didn't die, thus he is a firstfruit of the living saints taken up. Then we have Moses brought out of the grave and Christ rebuking Satan, so here is what the saints in Christ will have in the resurrection as they are raised out the graves.

 

[JBO]

What it seems that most of you are ignoring is that there is an intermediate state between death and the resurrection. Perhaps the reason that too many reject it, or at least refuse to accept it, is that the RCC, with its past teaching on purgatory, screwed up the idea of an intermediate state so profoundly. But it is biblical and the Bible contains abundant testimony supporting such a concept. I won't bother with it now but a number of texts affirm two basic points: first, that individuals continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness after death; and second, that they exist in this state as souls without bodies.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

a number of texts affirm two basic points: first, that individuals continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness after death; and second, that they exist in this state as souls without bodies.

This may be helpful:

'Confusion' of What Is Death...​

Amen.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

For born-again believers only the body dies at death but for believers absent from the body is to be present with God=more alive than ever before.

Amen. The falsehood that claims our soul is not immortal cannot be sustained by scripture.

However, I think instead of realizing that fact we might consider the point of someone insisting the Gospel is entirely without substance and false and that underlying message,when it is claimed our eternal life with God is a lie.

It means Heaven is a lie. And so too is Hell. And worse,that God who gave us an immortal soul is a fabrication.

 

[Hobie]

What it seems that most of you are ignoring is that there is an intermediate state between death and the resurrection. Perhaps the reason that too many reject it, or at least refuse to accept it, is that the RCC, with its past teaching on purgatory, screwed up the idea of an intermediate state so profoundly. But it is biblical and the Bible contains abundant testimony supporting such a concept. I won't bother with it now but a number of texts affirm two basic points: first, that individuals continue to exist in a state of personal consciousness after death; and second, that they exist in this state as souls without bodies.

Scripture makes clear we turn to dust and await the resurrection...

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Scripture makes clear we turn to dust and await the resurrection...

Scripture you prefer to ignore makes it crystal clear .

The body returns to dust,sure.

Because the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable. That's in scripture too.

While the soul,returns to God who gave it.

For those who may consider the false, even blasphemous, claim that eternal life in Christ is a lie,which is the underlying intent of the falsehood that occupies space on this particular board, consider this.

When God said, after we die our bodies return to dust,while the soul returns to God who gave it. (That's found in Ecclesiastes 12)

And we recall God's creation of our species back in Genesis.

Genesis 2:7
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And then we consider what we as Christians trust and believe when Immanuel,Jesus says, “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life!” (John 5:24)

It takes only a moment,not page after thread page, to revoked the lie that the OP promotes in our community with just one bit of thought behind Jesus' John 5 declaration.

And that is,when we die and our perishable flesh that we know cannot inherit the imperishable, 1 Corinthians 15:50, returns to the dust from which it sprang, Ecclesiastes 12:7, what is that in verse 7 but what Immanuel-Jesus died to guarantee us as he promised in John 5:24?

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NEVER let unbelievers persuade your thoughts even for a minute.

Never think Jesus,Immanuel,does not keep his word as the word,God!

Who became flesh and dwelt among us so to deliver that saving promise, covenant, that he gave his life's blood to seal for all time. Trust God. Not atheists whom he does not know.