The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Dave L]

Do those that reject the gospel have eternal life?

John 3:16
John 5:2
John 10:7-9
John 14:6
Acts of the Apostles 4:12

Those who are born again will embrace the gospel and live holy lives. The unregenerate struggle with it as they try to force the flesh into acting like a Christian.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Aren’t the “yet sinners” classified as unsaved?

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That’s the context. The Christ died for His sheep, they were sinners, dead in Adam. John 10:11, John 10:15 & Ephesians 5:25.

 

[SovereignGrace]

des·per·ate /ˈdesp(ə)rət/
adjective: (of a person): "having a great need or desire for something."

SovereignGrace, does God have a great desire to save lost men?

• The great desire of the prodigal's father toward his son compelled him to do two things: watch daily and intently for him, and throw dignity out the window when he finally saw him (rich men never get in a hurry for anyone)

• The great desire of Jesus to save Jerusalem and the people compelled Him to weep over it.

• The Rich Man sent servant after servant after servant to his vineyard, and then finally his son to convince them of their error.

• The desire in God's pleading towards the wicked is plainly evident: "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Yes. He proved it by sending His Son to die for His elect.

 

[Phoneman777]

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That’s the context. The Christ died for His sheep, they were sinners, dead in Adam. John 10:11, John 10:15 & Ephesians 5:25.

"We" being the entire human race: "For God so loved the world" not "for God so loved some of the world".

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes. He proved it by sending His Son to die for His elect.

You spelled "the world" wrong

 

[brakelite]

You fellas who advocate that God chooses who is saved, and who isn't, I have a question.
We all agree that God loves His own, whom you like to call the "elect", His "chosen". My question is, what is the opposite of love that motivates God to decide to not save others? If indeed that is His motivation...can you explain please your reasoning in this, because I seriously don't get it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"We" being the entire human race: "For God so loved the world" not "for God so loved some of the world".

The context is believers. Not the whole human race. If He died for the whole human race, the whole human race will be saved. The power of the cross is that powerful. It saves those it was intended to save.

 

[Nancy]

You fellas who advocate that God chooses who is saved, and who isn't, I have a question.
We all agree that God loves His own, whom you like to call the "elect", His "chosen". My question is, what is the opposite of love that motivates God to decide to not save others? If indeed that is His motivation...can you explain please your reasoning in this, because I seriously don't get it.

According to this doctrine, God chooses before anybody is even born for Heaven or Hell and, even though they are stillborn infants, or die as a toddler and also those who are willing but are not the "elect" are sent to Hell for His glory. That is the worst part. That is not a forgiving, loving and merciful God to me. So, if this is true then, God who is Sovereign, and eternal past and future must also be the author of evil and, I could never believe that. This doctrine strips many of hope and also affect how we deal with others and our views of salvation. Turns it on it's head! I am sure we can all agree in Gods Sovereignty and power, He can and does what He wants but, does He "need" to force some to Him and others not? How robotic, and why would He want to force people to love Him??! I am with you BL, I seriously do not get it either.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You spelled "the world" wrong

Yet, it says God hates those who commit iniquity.[Psalms 5:5]

 

[Dave L]

According to this doctrine, God chooses before anybody is even born for Heaven or Hell and, even though they are stillborn infants, or die as a toddler and also those who are willing but are not the "elect" are sent to Hell for His glory. That is the worst part. That is not a forgiving, loving and merciful God to me. So, if this is true then, God who is Sovereign, and eternal past and future must also be the author of evil and, I could never believe that. This doctrine strips many of hope and also affect how we deal with others and our views of salvation. Turns it on it's head! I am sure we can all agree in Gods Sovereignty and power, He can and does what He wants but, does He "need" to force some to Him and others not? How robotic, and why would He want to force people to love Him??! I am with you BL, I seriously do not get it either.

God saves all who want salvation but does not save those who do not.

 

[SovereignGrace]

According to this doctrine, God chooses before anybody is even born for Heaven or Hell and, even though they are stillborn infants, or die as a toddler and also those who are willing but are not the "elect" are sent to Hell for His glory. That is the worst part. That is not a forgiving, loving and merciful God to me. So, if this is true then, God who is Sovereign, and eternal past and future must also be the author of evil and, I could never believe that. This doctrine strips many of hope and also affect how we deal with others and our views of salvation. Turns it on it's head! I am sure we can all agree in Gods Sovereignty and power, He can and does what He wants but, does He "need" to force some to Him and others not? How robotic, and why would He want to force people to love Him??! I am with you BL, I seriously do not get it either.

Yet, God told Samuel to tell Saul to obliterate the Amelakites from the face of the earth in 2 Samuel 15:3. Even these so called innocent babies were to be killed. Only a cruel God commands innocent ppl be killed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God saves all who want salvation but does not save those who do not.

And those who want it have it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

According to this doctrine, God chooses before anybody is even born for Heaven or Hell and, even though they are stillborn infants, or die as a toddler and also those who are willing but are not the "elect" are sent to Hell for His glory. That is the worst part. That is not a forgiving, loving and merciful God to me. So, if this is true then, God who is Sovereign, and eternal past and future must also be the author of evil and, I could never believe that. This doctrine strips many of hope and also affect how we deal with others and our views of salvation. Turns it on it's head! I am sure we can all agree in Gods Sovereignty and power, He can and does what He wants but, does He "need" to force some to Him and others not? How robotic, and why would He want to force people to love Him??! I am with you BL, I seriously do not get it either.

It’s not according to this doctrine, but according to the Bible. Ephesians 1:4 couldn’t be any clearer if it tried.

 

[Nancy]

Yet, God told Samuel to tell Saul to obliterate the Amelakites from the face of the earth in 2 Samuel 15:3. Even these so called innocent babies were to be killed. Only a cruel God commands innocent ppl be killed.

The Amalekites were Jew haters. They were also the first to attack God's chosen after their sojourn in the desert. The way I see it is not that God created them to be this way but that God already knows what will be chosen by a people (His foreknowledge), and works with and uses their choices (that He knew before they were ever born) to His glory. To me, one would have to also believe that "evil" is a part of God's character...eternally past and eternally future as, how else would He display His wrath, unless He causes people to do evil things? I think the human nature does just fine on it's own being evil, selfish, unjust and so on.
Why can't God use the evil done by humans to the good for those who love Him and for His purposes? Is He not big and powerful enough to do that and still remain true to His character? I think He can.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Amalekites were Jew haters. They were also the first to attack God's chosen after their sojourn in the desert. The way I see it is not that God created them to be this way but that God already knows what will be chosen by a people (His foreknowledge), and works with and uses their choices (that He knew before they were ever born) to His glory. To me, one would have to also believe that "evil" is a part of God's character...eternally past and eternally future as, how else would He display His wrath, unless He causes people to do evil things? I think the human nature does just fine on it's own being evil, selfish, unjust and so on.
Why can't God use the evil done by humans to the good for those who love Him and for His purposes? Is He not big and powerful enough to do that and still remain true to His character? I think He can.

But even babies, those who were not guilty of hating the Jews were to be killed. Only a cruel God commands innocent ppl be killed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Amalekites were Jew haters. They were also the first to attack God's chosen after their sojourn in the desert. The way I see it is not that God created them to be this way but that God already knows what will be chosen by a people (His foreknowledge), and works with and uses their choices (that He knew before they were ever born) to His glory. To me, one would have to also believe that "evil" is a part of God's character...eternally past and eternally future as, how else would He display His wrath, unless He causes people to do evil things? I think the human nature does just fine on it's own being evil, selfish, unjust and so on.
Why can't God use the evil done by humans to the good for those who love Him and for His purposes? Is He not big and powerful enough to do that and still remain true to His character? I think He can.

God did not create them evil, that’s what our belief gets labeled with. We do NOT believe God creates ANYONE evil. They were born dead in Adam. Just like the elect were born dead in Adam.[Ephesians 2:3] Only in grace and mercy are the elect saved. If grace is not free, then it’s no longer grace. If God has to offer salvation to everyone, then it ceases to be grace and becomes an obligation. He is not obligated to anyone.

 

[Nancy]

It’s not according to this doctrine, but according to the Bible. Ephesians 1:4 couldn’t be any clearer if it tried.

I believe the "elect" are all Christians, the Jews were pretty appalled that the Gentiles would be included in The Kingdom of God. Ephesians were gentiles, and it was according to Gods good pleasure to include them in redemption.
John 3:16 couldn't be any clearer either

 

[SovereignGrace]

I believe the "elect" are all Christians, the Jews were pretty appalled that the Gentiles would be included in The Kingdom of God. Ephesians were gentiles, and it was according to Gods good pleasure to include them in redemption.
John 3:16 couldn't be any clearer either

Yes, all Christians make up the elect. Getting back to John 3:16. God loves the world, yes. But world does not mean everybody whoever lived, either.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] Is the whole world, everybody without exception laying(residing) in the power of the evil one, or is it the lost only? It has to be the latter. So, whole world can not mean everybody without exception.

 

[Nancy]

Yes, all Christians make up the elect. Getting back to John 3:16. God loves the world, yes. But world does not mean everybody whoever lived, either.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] Is the whole world, everybody without exception laying(residing) in the power of the evil one, or is it the lost only? It has to be the latter. So, whole world can not mean everybody without exception.

The whole world is the whole world without exception! He loves even sinners even though they might not be His child but, just His creation. He came FOR the lost, sinners and all were lost and sinful, and many will remain in that state. But if the bible says He died for the sins of the world, I take that in it's very simplistic and clear meaning.
I'm sorry S.G. this is a doctrine that I have had experiences with as well as much reading. If it is true then, I suppose I am just not saved as, I NEVER felt compelled to the point of not being able to resist, coming to The Lord...Truth is what brought me to my understanding and desire for all things God.
BTW, could you even look an unbeliever in the eye and say that God loves them?? I think you would have to re-word and say "God might love you" Also, why does God have us evangelizing, and why does He put such importance to it if all has been said and done? It seems that the doctrines of TULIP and those who follow it, are being hypocrites when they "evangelize"...JMHO and, I mean no disrespect, I'm just giving my views.
God Bless,
nancy

 

[SovereignGrace]

The whole world is the whole world without exception! He loves even sinners even though they might not be His child but, just His creation. He came FOR the lost, sinners and all were lost and sinful, and many will remain in that state. But if the bible says He died for the sins of the world, I take that in it's very simplistic and clear meaning.
I'm sorry S.G. this is a doctrine that I have had experiences with as well as much reading. If it is true then, I suppose I am just not saved as, I NEVER felt compelled to the point of not being able to resist, coming to The Lord...Truth is what brought me to my understanding and desire for all things God.
BTW, could you even look an unbeliever in the eye and say that God loves them?? I think you would have to re-word and say "God might love you" Also, why does God have us evangelizing, and why does He put such importance to it if all has been said and done? It seems that the doctrines of TULIP and those who follow it, are being hypocrites when they "evangelize"...JMHO and, I mean no disrespect, I'm just giving my views.
God Bless,
nancy

So even the saved are still under the power of Satan? The whole world is stated in 1 John 5:19. For your view to be correct, we, the saved, are still under his power.