The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Laish]

Plenty of texts and arguments have been presented to you "exclusivity religionists" by us "inclusivity religionists , but if your desire to be "specially chosen" blinds you to the truth, that's not my problem.

Non-Calvinists DO NOT deny that those who are saved are also specially chosen, and are called the elect according to God's foreknowledge.

Not all as it seems
Blessings
Bill

 

[Phoneman777]

Not all as it seems
Blessings
Bill

By "specially chosen", I mean in the same manner Luciferians think themselves "specially chosen" - both they and Calvinists think only a few select have opportunity to be part of their exclusive club.

 

[Laish]

By "specially chosen", I mean in the same manner Luciferians think themselves "specially chosen" - both they and Calvinists think only a few select have opportunity to be part of their exclusive club.

Ok again How ? citations please . If you can please show how this is . Anything from known books on comparative religions or from publications on the Luciferianism 11 features or points of power with their ISBN numbers please .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Phoneman777]

Ok again How ? citations please . If you can please show how this is . Anything from known books on comparative religions or from publications on the Luciferianism 11 features or points of power with their ISBN numbers please .
Blessings
Bill

I've previously posted about five or six similarities between the two. That's five or six too many things to have in common with Luciferian thought. Not saying Calvinists worship Lucifer, but that their ideas are alarmingly similar when we ought to be light years away from Luciferians in our thinking

 

[Laish]

I've previously posted about five or six similarities between the two. That's five or six too many things to have in common with Luciferian thought. Not saying Calvinists worship Lucifer, but that their ideas are alarmingly similar when we ought to be light years away from Luciferians in our thinking

What are these ideas ? Citation please .
This is what you say I want prof . Show me the documentation.
Waiting
Blessings
Bill

 

[justbyfaith]

If anyone tells me that chapter and verse aren't inspired, I tell them (phonetically) to read Proverbs 32 (30:2).

 

[Phoneman777]

What are these ideas ? Citation please .
This is what you say I want prof . Show me the documentation.
Waiting
Blessings
Bill

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1. Calvinists teach Total Depravity.
2. Luciferians teach the uninitiated are hopelessly unworthy, profane, unsophisticated, unintelligent, deserving only of exploitation.

The Bible says God "hath dealt to all men a measure of faith".
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1. Calvinists teach Irresistible Grace which means humans have no freewill.
2. Satanists teach humans are animals driven by "survival of the fittest" - not freewill but instinct.

The Bible says every man must "choose you this day whom ye will serve."
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1. Calvinists teach God elects some while denying all others any chance of election.
2. Luciferians teach Lucifer chooses some for "enlightenment" while leaving the rest in hopeless darkness.

The Bible says God wants "all men to be saved and to come unto a knowledge of the truth."
-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Calvinists teach they cannot resist the compulsory grace of God.
2. Luciferian affiliation becomes compulsory after initiation - defectors are marked for death.

The Bible says while "the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men", it also says "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat."
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1. Calvinists teach Christ's atonement is limited to the elect - all others were born without hope.
2. Luciferians teach they alone with inherit the Earth, while all others have no hope of that inheritance.

The Bible says "the meek shall inherit the Earth" while both Luciferians and Calvinists show themselves anything but meek as they both look down their noses upon the wretched with disdain.

 

[Laish]

If anyone tells me that chapter and verse aren't inspired, I tell them (phonetically) to read Proverbs 32 (30:2).

All of it is inspired the total down the order that every single phrase or word that are in the scriptures God has established it all . All in its entirety .
2 Timothy 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Enoch111]

Not all as it seems

Not sure what you mean by this cryptic remark, but God has made His plan of salvation very clear. He offers salvation to all who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once that fundamental truth is grasped and accepted, all else falls into place.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Your drivel is juvenile and tiring. That said I will address the above for the sake of others, and hopefully you as well.

Just for the record, with you and your pseudo-philosophical ramblings which are devoid of Scripture or biblical truths, all who are in Christ were "specially chosen." And he is going to save each and everyone he has chosen; 2 Timothy 2:8-10; John 6:39-40; 2 Peter 3:9.

It appears you're really ticked off at God over all this like the Romans 9:20 man. My hope is you will bow your knee to him and his ways and come to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9.

Here's the text showing how we're all (those who are saved and believe the one true Gospel and LORD) "specially chosen" 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; plus these; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Ephesians 1:4; Titus 1:1; Romans 8:33. Look at that! It's all over the place in Scripture!

There's also the "special enlightening" for these "specially chosen ones" as well because, except for God, none would see the truth; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:15-23; Matthew 11:25-30.

I'm fairly certain all the inhabitants of hell ridicule his people in the same manner as you are doing. Think that through, there is a bitterness in you, a resentment toward the truth and the God of truth.

Since all the above is true, and for the fact that you mock it and God's ways, I'm certain it is clear where that would leave any person that rejects and ridicules it. I say this not in glee, not in mockery, but in concern as this is your daily penchant as we continue to build the biblical case against you.

This post is both solid and helpful in that you get right to the heart of the issue and offer the needed verses to help.

 

[Laish]

I offer no defense of luciferian beliefs just pointing out that you have no grasp of their beliefs .
They are just a convenient bugbear used to smear or attack straw man arguments .

1. Calvinists teach Total Depravity.
2. Luciferians teach the uninitiated are hopelessly unworthy, profane, unsophisticated, unintelligent, deserving only of exploitation.

The Bible says God "hath dealt to all men a measure of faith".

First what do you believe total depravity means ? Please supply from Reformed sources sense you say it’s what we believe we need it from the horses mouth. The name of confession and line number will do .
Here is a general overview of what is meant to most Reformed folks .
Total Depravity: ( better put total inability) This doctrine teaches there is no part of our human nature which has not been affected by the taint of sin. Our intellect, emotions, will, and even physical bodies, have been corrupted by the Fall.

As a point of clarification, total depravity does not mean that humanity is as bad as possible or that no good in any sense can be done by unbelievers (though ultimately any good that does come about should be attributed to God's grace). Rather, it means that in the natural fallen state we are born into we are unable to do any spiritual good that will please God and we cannot come to God by our own strength. This is why some theologians refer to this point, perhaps more accurately, as total inability.


As far as what the other guys teach it’s inconsistent with what you say their beliefs are . From their book of the adversary.
1. Lucifer represents the light of intellect, wisdom and power unique to each individual with the courage to ascend to this responsibility.
(2) All are have this power it’s only your choice to use it . M Ford
ISBN 10: 0557044294 The book of the adversary with commentary from M Ford

1. Calvinists teach Irresistible Grace which means humans have no freewill.
2. Satanists teach humans are animals driven by "survival of the fittest" - not freewill but instinct.

The Bible says every man must "choose you this day whom ye will serve."

Ok what is your understanding of Reformed teaching on free will .
Again a reformed source please like I stated above .

Just a side note luciferians are not satanist some get all hurt if ya call them one
They say they have some common beliefs but are not the same
So which is it ?

Again the other guys teach differently than what you say

5. The fall of Lucifer or Satan symbolizes the liberation of the mind from the slave-mentality and the courage to explore and master the darkness within. One may not offer the illumination of the Morning Star without the wisdom of the darkness within.
(23) He fell so we are free not to serve myth We do not make “pacts”or “worship” any external entity nor do we believe in their existence .
(36) Man is liberated given a choice to determine his destiny.
ISBN 10: 0557044294 The book of the adversary with commentary from M Ford

1. Calvinists teach God elects some while denying all others any chance of election.
2. Luciferians teach Lucifer chooses some for "enlightenment" while leaving the rest in hopeless darkness.

The Bible says God wants "all men to be saved and to come unto a knowledge of the truth."

1 can you show me that everyone gets this choice ? Including the ones that never heard the Gospel .

Again those other folks say differently than what you say they do .
As far as what the luciferians teach or believe . From their book of the adversary.
1. Lucifer represents the light of intellect, wisdom and power unique to each individual with the courage to ascend to this responsibility.
(2) All are have this power it’s only your choice to use it . M Ford

ISBN 10: 0557044294 The book of the adversary with commentary from M Ford
You don’t know what your talking about it’s just a easy way to smear somthing you don’t agree with

1. Calvinists teach they cannot resist the compulsory grace of God.
2. Luciferian affiliation becomes compulsory after initiation - defectors are marked for death.

The Bible says while "the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men", it also says "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat."

Ok again what do you mean by compulsory grace ?

Your using terminology that contradicts what Reformed theology states on the subject. Use of terms like compulsory only seek to villainize without representing beliefs accurately.

Please supply from Reformed sources sense you say it’s what we believe we need it from the horses mouth. The name of confession and line number will do .
Calvin put it this way
The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant.
John6:43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Is God’s calling effective yes

Now what the other guys say still again you differ with what you say they believe.
Here again make something up about these occultist in line with your straw man attack to smear folks you don’t agree with .

ISBN 10: 0557044294 The book of the adversary with commentary from M Ford

We categorically reject any act that involves hurting a third party, since we conceive life as something unique and beautiful, and as something to be respected in accordance to our own divinity. Part of the Luciferian morality is to treat others as one would like to be treated.

1. Calvinists teach Christ's atonement is limited to the elect - all others were born without hope.
2. Luciferians teach they alone with inherit the Earth, while all others have no hope of that inheritance.

The Bible says "the meek shall inherit the Earth" while both Luciferians and Calvinists show themselves anything but meek as they both look down their noses upon the wretched with disdain.

Here Is what Calvin had to say on it . Note Calvin said very little on this there are only a few quotes and nothing he stated as doctrine. In His institutes He did say elsewhere along with other Reformed folks on the subject.

Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” He also said this in a prayer
We offer up our prayers unto Thee, O most gracious God and most merciful Father, for all men in general, that as Thou art pleased to be acknowledged the Savior of the whole human race by the redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ Thy Son…
Your demonstrating your unfamiliarity with a subject

Now on to the other guys
Here again this is one of their core beliefs this is not constant with what you say they believe
From a faq in book of the adversary
Luciferians do not believe in the Abrahamic religions' doctrine of an afterlife that is paid for by suffering in the present life. Instead, it is believed that one should live for the present day and make the most of what is here and now.
( 33) There is no expectations of inheritance of the world .
ISBN 10: 0557044294 The book of the adversary with commentary from M Ford
It’s not apart of their belief system
You say they believe they will inherit the earth they say have no expectations .
You posting something out of whole cloth do degrade others you disagree with .

Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

Not sure what you mean by this cryptic remark, but God has made His plan of salvation very clear. He offers salvation to all who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once that fundamental truth is grasped and accepted, all else falls into place.

No not cryptic just poorly written lol not all , as it seems
Meaning not all who are posting here
Blessings
Bill

 

[brakelite]

as we continue to build the biblical case against you.

I am not sure why you would bother to continue to build a Biblical case for, or against, anyone, seeing there is absolutely nothing they can do about it, according to your own teaching? What is it you are attempting to accomplish with all this head-masterly instruction?

 

[justbyfaith]

Please supply from Reformed sources sense you say it’s what we believe we need it from the horses mouth. The name of confession and line number will do .

So then, what the lot of you say when preaching what you believe that Calvin taught doesn't count?

It seems to me that what is preached by Calvinists ought to be included in the set of beliefs that we call Calvinism.

So then, if one of you teaches something as Calvinistic doctrine, can you rightly say later that it isn't truly what Calvinism teaches?

It seems to me that if you can, that you give yourselves the right to misrepresent what is taught by your system of belief.

You can say what is not taught by Calvinism, saying it is Calvinism; and then later say that it is not taught by Calvinism.

Or also, you can say what is taught by Calvinism; and then if it is soundly refuted by your opponents, you can say later that it is not what is really taught by Calvinism and that that "other Calvinist" really didn't know what he was talking about.

Really, if you are going to preach a doctrinal system, you ought to know what is taught by it; and you also ought not to misrepresent what is taught by it.

Therefore, if any of you who is preaching Calvinism says something in defense of your belief system, it can be held to be part of what is believed by Calvinists.

It is not only what is included in the original confessions of faith that can be used to show what is believed by Calvinists therefore.

 

[Laish]

So then, what the lot of you say when preaching what you believe that Calvin taught doesn't count?

It seems to me that what is preached by Calvinists ought to be included in the set of beliefs that we call Calvinism.

So then, if one of you teaches something as Calvinistic doctrine, can you rightly say later that it isn't truly what Calvinism teaches?

It seems to me that if you can, that you give yourselves the right to misrepresent what is taught by your system of belief.

You can say what is not taught by Calvinism, saying it is Calvinism; and then later say that it is not taught by Calvinism.

Or also, you can say what is taught by Calvinism; and then if it is soundly refuted by your opponents, you can say later that it is not what is really taught by Calvinism and that that "other Calvinist" really didn't know what he was talking about.

Really, if you are going to preach a doctrinal system, you ought to know what is taught by it; and you also ought not to misrepresent what is taught by it.

Therefore, if any of you who is preaching Calvinism says something in defense of your belief system, it can be held to be part of what is believed by Calvinists.

It is not only what is included in the original confessions of faith that can be used to show what is believed by Calvinists therefore.

What? Are you talking about ? JBF l
Blessings
Bill

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What? Are you talking about ? JBF l
Blessings
Bill

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So then, what the lot of you say when preaching what you believe that Calvin taught doesn't count?

It seems to me that what is preached by Calvinists ought to be included in the set of beliefs that we call Calvinism.

So then, if one of you teaches something as Calvinistic doctrine, can you rightly say later that it isn't truly what Calvinism teaches?

It seems to me that if you can, that you give yourselves the right to misrepresent what is taught by your system of belief.

You can say what is not taught by Calvinism, saying it is Calvinism; and then later say that it is not taught by Calvinism.

Or also, you can say what is taught by Calvinism; and then if it is soundly refuted by your opponents, you can say later that it is not what is really taught by Calvinism and that that "other Calvinist" really didn't know what he was talking about.

Really, if you are going to preach a doctrinal system, you ought to know what is taught by it; and you also ought not to misrepresent what is taught by it.

Therefore, if any of you who is preaching Calvinism says something in defense of your belief system, it can be held to be part of what is believed by Calvinists.

It is not only what is included in the original confessions of faith that can be used to show what is believed by Calvinists therefore.

Nope. Sorry.

In other words, you're going to just say what we believe no matter how many times we show you you're clueless. Just like Scripture, you twist what we say as well. You're just not a very honest person JFB.

 

[brakelite]

@Preacher4Truth Hi. A while back you said, correctly, that we should all examine ourselves as per Paul's instruction to see if we are in the faith. What would you suggest we ought to do if upon investigating ourselves, we find ourselves deficient?

I am not sure why you would bother to continue to build a Biblical case for, or against, anyone, seeing there is absolutely nothing they can do about it, according to your own teaching? What is it you are attempting to accomplish with all this head-masterly instruction?

I don't want to suggest or even think that the preacher is ignoring me, or hiding, or that such seemingly simple questions are perhaps beneath his dignity to answer, so I'm not sure why they haven't received a reply from him, so is there anyone else who would like to explain to me the above? Or perhaps give the preacher a tap on the shoulder or something to wake him up?

 

[Laish]

So then, what the lot of you say when preaching what you believe that Calvin taught doesn't count?

Where did you get that? Just a heads up Calvinism is Reformed theology.

The term Calvinism was used as a pejorative . Probably used at first by Lutherans in a dispute over the exact nature of Lord’s super.
Also what is taught by Calvinist ( Reformed theology) was not invited by Calvin he just documented it in his writings. Calvin’s books have extensive bibliographies including biblical passages statements of faith and Christian Writers dating back over 1000 years before his birth.

It seems to me that what is preached by Calvinists ought to be included in the set of beliefs that we call Calvinism.

I don’t think you understand what Calvinism( Reformed theology) is . It’s a way we view scripture in its entirety , the nature of The triune God and God’s sovereignty in salvation . There are other things too like the 5 solas . It’s not a single group of people or a single denomination. There over 200 Reformed minded denominations just here in the U.S. alone not including independent groups.
Not all agree on things like the lords supper ,baptism ,charismatic gifts , high or low church They are still Reformed yet there are differences.

Also note it’s obvious that most of the many non reformed posters haven’t taken the time to read up on Reformed theology to know what is understood by Reformed folks . They still post straw man caricatures of Reformed beliefs the proceed to rip it to shreds .

we call Calvinism.

Who is the we ?

So then, if one of you teaches something as Calvinistic doctrine, can you rightly say later that it isn't truly what Calvinism teaches?

Can you give me a example? A simple cut and paste example will do .

Or also, you can say what is taught by Calvinism; and then if it is soundly refuted by your opponents, you can say later that it is not what is really taught by Calvinism and that that "other Calvinist" really didn't know what he was talking about.

Actually when you get a firm grasp of what Reformed theology is you can give this one a try . Ie you can’t refute what you so far have not fully comprehended. Until then you are only attacking a preconceived notion that has no basis in reality.

Really, if you are going to preach a doctrinal system, you ought to know what is taught by it; and you also ought not to misrepresent what is taught by it.

True and it is true if you are critique it you should know what you talking about.
Also if someone is doing this here .
Give examples of this . Cut and paste will do .

Therefore, if any of you who is preaching Calvinism says something in defense of your belief system, it can be held to be part of what is believed by Calvinists.

unless they are wrong lol
Note Reformed theology is teaching what is in the whole of scripture.

It is not only what is included in the original confessions of faith that can be used to show what is believed by Calvinists therefore.

Therefore what?
Not sure what you mean by original confessions.
Like I said above ( Calvinism) Reformed theology covers many denominations many have different views which are covered by different confessions that not all would agree with. Try getting a former grasp on Reformed theology.
It’s not a single group or particular denomination, but a way we approach scripture worship of God
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

I don't want to suggest or even think that the preacher is ignoring me

Perhaps it’s mothers day and he has family set as his priority
Just a thought .
Blessings
Bill