Was Abraham justified by Faith or Works according to Romans 4?
Are we not commanded to obey the gospel?
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The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity
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Was Abraham justified by Faith or Works according to Romans 4?
Are we not commanded to obey the gospel?
@Waiting on him The Philippians 2 passage about the Lord Jesus humbling Himself and being 'obedient unto death, even the death of the cross', is so searching.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
The Biblical God is not desperate to do anything. This shows you do not yet have any notion of the True and Living God.
The Biblical God we worship does whatsoever He has pleased.
Psalm 115.
God has never intended to save every fallen sinner. He is going to save a great number, but not all.
I guess by calling me pal, you hope to deflect from your lack of biblical information. We are here to help, but if you just want to attack what you do not understand that is your right. I also do not like censorship .
If you want help say so...if not keep posting God dishonouring thoughts. ..you might get some "likes", from others who are just as confused as you are.
It is your choice.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Coming from someone who claims the Christ laid aside His divinity.
Eeeeccchhhkkk.He posted that???
Nancy
Well-Known Member
You're quite welcome.
"I am not sure antinomianist is a word."
No, I don't think it's real word either, lol but Antinomianism is
"I am not sure antinomianist is a word."
No, I don't think it's real word either, lol but Antinomianism is
This doesn't make sense to me...the first bullet point you list.
Men everywhere want to escape death (the punishment for sin). They may not know their condition or believe in God, but they ALL would like to escape death.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Abraham the way I understand it was in Mesopotamia among idol worshipers. God approached and chose him, not a good reference in my opinion in the argument of free will
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Phoneman
[When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:
[However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."]
The bible is not a book of poems or random verses that you stick together to create your version of what goes on.
God does not "reason"with anyone. that language is calling rebellious Israel to repent of their vile sins.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
[Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket?]
What a vile and disgusting post. You speak of The Holy God worshipped by millions of saints as if He were a mere man who has to justify himself to fallen humanity! You speak of a perfect God's Purpose as"a celestial eternal life lottery" If this is how you post, how can anyone take you seriously?
You betray a low view of God's mercy and grace in his electing love.
[Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness".]
Man by himself does not want to seek the biblical God. He hates God and His word and his people.
Sin informs his choice and he does not want to"accept" anything.
[The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.
The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.]
Your gospel of works and man centered salvation is false. Real christians are drawn and saved by God the holy Spirit.
[When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:
- man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
- man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.]
[However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."]
The bible is not a book of poems or random verses that you stick together to create your version of what goes on.
God does not "reason"with anyone. that language is calling rebellious Israel to repent of their vile sins.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
[Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket?]
What a vile and disgusting post. You speak of The Holy God worshipped by millions of saints as if He were a mere man who has to justify himself to fallen humanity! You speak of a perfect God's Purpose as"a celestial eternal life lottery" If this is how you post, how can anyone take you seriously?
You betray a low view of God's mercy and grace in his electing love.
[Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness".]
Man by himself does not want to seek the biblical God. He hates God and His word and his people.
Sin informs his choice and he does not want to"accept" anything.
[The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.
The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.]
Your gospel of works and man centered salvation is false. Real christians are drawn and saved by God the holy Spirit.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as "a gospel of works". That is a straw man. And a "man-centered salvation" would not focus exclusively on Christ and His finished work of redemption.
Real Christians obey the Gospel, repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And God and Christ draw ALL MEN to the Savior. But ultimately every sinner must make a decision, a choice (and that includes every Calvinist) to turn from their sins and idols and turn to the living God and Christ. Then God saves (justifies) by His grace those who believe on Christ, after which they are regenerated (having received the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life).
TITUS 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch it forth while he healed it. Repentance is the same and proves our salvation.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
All men ever born were not drawn to the saviour.
All kinds of men are, not Jews only.
Why won't you deal with the scripture I provided? Does it say Abraham was justified by his works and earned salvation like a laborer earns his wages, or does it say that he was deemed righteous through his faith? Will you acknowledge that these passages make a distinction between faith and works?
I'm also going to have to ask you to provide scripture for this "believing in the flesh" concept of yours. You're pretty much the only person I've seen espouse it.
I'm trying to show you the relationship between faith and repentance as demonstrated in the withered hand example.
I don't see how that's related to the subject. The claim being made by your side is that having faith is a work. Both sides accept that nobody is saved based on their works, as only Christ is sufficient. Therefore, our faith cannot be a work in the traditional sense of "labour"
I'm requesting you outline your objection to this from your Calvinistic POV.
The gospel is the good news that whoever believes has eternal life. It's like saying whoever has blue eyes and blond hair hails from northern Europe.
But if you say whoever chooses to believe will have eternal life, it is like saying whoever wears blue contacts and peroxides their hair hails from northern Europe.
You turn the gospel into law and believing into a work.
Jesus instructed us that the work of God, the only "work" we can do that would ever be acceptable in God's sight, is to believe on the One whom God had sent into the world, Jesus Himself. Jesus implores us to do something, to believe in Him of our own volition. Jesus implores us to respond to the gospel. We are urged by Christ to respond positively to the gospel because we have free will, it's just that simple. John 6:29
You are at odds with what scripture plainly states.
Believing is not a work. That's literally my position. Your position as a Calvinist is that we can't choose to accept the gospel on our own as doing so would make salvation be based on our works. I have already provided scripture debunking that claim in Romans 4, but you've chosen not to engage it.
In order to be saved, one must believe the gospel. That is the condition that must be met on our part, for no one can be saved by any other name than Christ. If you want to flip this and make it appear that I'm claiming that accepting the gospel is somehow the equivalent of following the Torah (a claim I'm not making) that's on you, and you'd be wrong because I'm only repeating John 6:29 where Jesus instructs His hearers on how to do the will God desires.
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