The fruits of OSAS and fruits its Opponent theolgy

[r4hnsn]

As I said in the second post of this thread, you have not properly framed your OP. Why are you then surprised that everybody is not clear on what the issue is?

hi Stan, I am not a rookie to christian forums so I am not surprised or dismayed that others are unclear as kneejerk reactions to things never said are common place in forums. My post is framed just fine if people actually read it properly, or if unsure the onus is on others to seek clarification.

I asked for peoples opinion of the fruits they see in their OWN congregations, but peeps seem to get stuck on the right/wrong of OSAS again, which is what i clearly stated it wasn`t about.

 

[StanJ]

hi Stan, I am not a rookie to christian forums so I am not surprised or dismayed that others are unclear as kneejerk reactions to things never said are common place in forums. My post is framed just fine if people actually read it properly, or if unsure the onus is on others to seek clarification.
I asked for peoples opinion of the fruits they see in their OWN congregations, but peeps seem to get stuck on the right/wrong of OSAS again, which is what i clearly stated it wasn`t about.

Well then sadly you don't get what it entails when you think everybody else is wrong and you're right? I said nothing about you being a rookie all I said was in my very first post that you didn't frame your OP very well and it was open to all kinds of interpretation, which obviously has happened.
I was just trying to be helpful but apparently you don't want any help.

 

[mjrhealth]

hi Stan, I am not a rookie to christian forums so I am not surprised or dismayed that others are unclear as kneejerk reactions to things never said are common place in forums. My post is framed just fine if people actually read it properly, or if unsure the onus is on others to seek clarification.

I asked for peoples opinion of the fruits they see in their OWN congregations, but peeps seem to get stuck on the right/wrong of OSAS again, which is what i clearly stated it wasn`t about.

dont get mad at him hes like that to everyone. Wont even read my posts anymore even though i read his.

 

[r4hnsn]

dont get mad at him hes like that to everyone. Wont even read my posts anymore even though i read his.

Takes alot more than that to get me riled, thats why i stated i was not a rookie. Its hard to take it too personal when ya been around awhile eh?

 

[StanJ]

Takes alot more than that to get me riled, thats why i stated i was not a rookie. Its hard to take it too personal when ya been around awhile eh?

Good to have people that respond in an adult way rather than take offence at everything that they're told. No offence was intended.

 

[mjrhealth]

Takes alot more than that to get me riled, thats why i stated i was not a rookie. Its hard to take it too personal when ya been around awhile eh?

Jesus had to put up with it, should we expect any less???

 

[Phoneman777]

being "Christ like" is not what a child of God is all about. No one can be like Christ. I remember well that Satan told Eve that if she ate from the tree she would be "LIKE GOD".

The fruit that a child of God is to bring forth is more children of God.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". If a man and Christ are of the same mind, does not that make that man to "be like Christ"?

 

[mjrhealth]

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". If a man and Christ are of the same mind, does not that make that man to "be like Christ"?

Not quiet but close, we stil lhave our flesh to contend with.

 

[H. Richard]

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". If a man and Christ are of the same mind, does not that make that man to "be like Christ"?

The proper reading of that verse which you took out of context is this.

Phil 2:3-7
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

This verse has nothing to do with sins of the flesh and the religious trying to claim sinless perfection.

 

[Wormwood]

The proper reading of that verse which you took out of context is this.

Phil 2:3-7
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

This verse has nothing to do with sins of the flesh and the religious trying to claim sinless perfection.

Did anyone reference "sinless perfection"? I think the Scriptures clearly teach that we should walk as Jesus did and try to be like him. We have been given the example of Christ and the Spirit of Christ. Moreover, the Church is called the "body of Christ" that is to carry on the work of Christ in the world by the power of his Spirit. So, yes, we are to "be like Christ." We are instructed in Scripture to walk like him and conduct ourselves with the same attitude. Yes, we may sin, but that does not mean we should cease trying to be like him and striving to follow his example. Again, Scripture very clearly instructs us to do this. We are not just to "bring forth more children for God." We are to be renewed in our attitudes, behaviors, and strive to live a holy life in all Godliness as we follow Christ's example. I just dont understand why anyone would object to such a notion.

 

[Zachary]

I just dont understand why anyone would object to such a notion.

Yes, I just don't understand why anyone would object to the notion that
it is very possible for a born-again believer to lose his/her salvation ...
for there are dozens of NT verses which teach this!

 

[ScaliaFan]

This is not intended as a mud slinging, point at the log in the others eye discussion/debate.

The premise set here is that right theology proves itself by its fruit.

Does belief in unshakeable eternal security from new birth till death produce good fruit, ie repentance from sin and faith towards God and concern for souls.

And does belief in the danger of losing salvation produce insecurity and neurosis and carnal fear of God?

What is your experience been in your church? Please don`t comment on someone else`s church, or a church not actively involved for reasonable time.

I have not been in a TULIP believing church, so can only say that in my experience (Pentecostal) most seem to have security in Gods love, but not nesessarily thorough repentance from sins. Mostly there is strong emphasis of evangelism and love towards the lost.

Lets be honest with ourselves here.

your post is not exactly clear in some parts but I will jump in on the parts I understand. It is a total lie from the devil that we humans can violate God's moral laws and there will little or no consequences. Yet I think this is bascially what a lot of, maybe most? Christians believe. If they didn't believe that way, why is there so much evil in the world and "Christians" seem to propagate that evil, rather than defy it? If Christians defied evil instead of just going along with it, this world would be a different place and more people would make it into Heaven. Instead, Jesus tells us that few make, few find the "narrow way" Christ's way is "narrow" because it goes against human nature. It is (for example) so much easier to hate others than to love them. Hate comes naturally to us humans, unfortunately, especially those of us who were raised in--well, i dont know how to say it, but a rather un-Christian kind of environment. The personality is formed by the age of about 5, so it's no wonder things get--entrenched in the psyche and it seems you cannot change. But that is what Jesus calls us to, change. It is painful because we dont like to see anything wrong inside us, much less DO anything about the icky stuff inside, the sin, etc.. but of course, its not impossible; god doesn't demand we do something that is not possible

 

[ScaliaFan]

A believer is saved as long as they believe, but anyone can turn their backs on God and fall away, in which case they aren't saved. As Paul said towards his end; "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). OSAS is conditional and dependent on us keeping the faith till our end,

this makes no sense. the 2 sentences contradict one another. osas says you are saved regardless of your sinful conduct. Yet St Paul fought to the end and kept the faith, which is not as easy as it may sound. It is--UH OH.. 4 letter word alert! -- WORK to save your soul (allow Jesus to save you). It is a process, not a one-time event, a day-to-day walk with Jesus and HIS ways, not our own ("Not My will, but Thine be done")

and that is why so many lose the salvation game (as it were) and end up in Hell. Do you think there are no "Christians" in Hell? There are plenty. "To whom more is given, more is required" it says in the Word. and Jesus tells us that the way is narrow and there are FEW who find it (Mt 7:13-21)

He said there are FEW.. whereas in society in general (USA) we find many who call themselves Christian. Well, I pray for them, that they become real Chrsitians. Calling themselves that is a start.. but that's about it


:blink:

 

[FHII]

One of the most important verses in understanding predestination an OSAS (which i don't fully agree with) is 1 john 2:19.

This verse tells me that folks can walk the walk and talk the talk of a believer. They can do and say everything a real believer does for a season. They might even truly believe it while doing it.

But in the end they manifest themselves for whatever reason.

Folks who believe real christians can walk away may like this verse, but they miss something very important. John said they weren't of us. They were (maybe) geniune for a time, but as noted in Jesus's parables, they had no root and could not stand the heat.

So I will restate the leason from this verse. It is important to persevere. Otherwise, despite the fact that you did well, you NEVER were a child of God. You were among the children, but not one of them.

God knew it all along. Just like he knew judas all along, but allowed him to be apart of his ministry.

 

[StanJ]

One of the most important verses in understanding predestination an OSAS (which i don't fully agree with) is 1 john 2:19.
This verse tells me that folks can walk the walk and talk the talk of a believer. They can do and say everything a real believer does for a season. They might even truly believe it while doing it.
But in the end they manifest themselves for whatever reason.
Folks who believe real christians can walk away may like this verse, but they miss something very important. John said they weren't of us. They were (maybe) geniune for a time, but as noted in Jesus's parables, they had no root and could not stand the heat.
So I will restate the leason from this verse. It is important to persevere. Otherwise, despite the fact that you did well, you NEVER were a child of God. You were among the children, but not one of them.
God knew it all along. Just like he knew judas all along, but allowed him to be apart of his ministry.

John was actually speaking in hindsight. What he does here though is add to what Jesus taught in Luke 8. Still he warned about false teaching just as a lot of the New Testament does and if we weren't able to fall away because of false teaching or apostasy or any number of things and there would be no warnings in Scripture to be careful about them. Makes no sense whatsoever to warn about something that's not a danger.

 

[Phoneman777]

One of the most important verses in understanding predestination an OSAS (which i don't fully agree with) is 1 john 2:19.

This verse tells me that folks can walk the walk and talk the talk of a believer. They can do and say everything a real believer does for a season. They might even truly believe it while doing it.

But in the end they manifest themselves for whatever reason.

Folks who believe real christians can walk away may like this verse, but they miss something very important. John said they weren't of us. They were (maybe) geniune for a time, but as noted in Jesus's parables, they had no root and could not stand the heat.

So I will restate the leason from this verse. It is important to persevere. Otherwise, despite the fact that you did well, you NEVER were a child of God. You were among the children, but not one of them.

God knew it all along. Just like he knew judas all along, but allowed him to be apart of his ministry.

The fact that there are those who've never been converted among us that eventually end up revealing their carnal hearts by departing from us is evidence for OSAS if we close the Bible right there. However, Jesus spoke of ex-saints bound for hell with the saint who is heavenbound when He said, "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold (COLD AND DEAD) but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." Also, the Unmerciful Servant was forgiven of his impossible monetary debt, which is a symbol of the sin debt, but wound up having that forgiveness withdrawn because he refused to manifest the loving character of his lord, the same thing that will happen to any saint who returns to the service of Satan.

 

[Zachary]

Thanks, guys, for stepping up to the plate and hitting home runs!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[FHII]

The fact that there are those who've never been converted among us that eventually end up revealing their carnal hearts by departing from us is evidence for OSAS if we close the Bible right there. However, Jesus spoke of ex-saints bound for hell with the saint who is heavenbound when He said, "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold (COLD AND DEAD) but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." Also, the Unmerciful Servant was forgiven of his impossible monetary debt, which is a symbol of the sin debt, but wound up having that forgiveness withdrawn because he refused to manifest the loving character of his lord, the same thing that will happen to any saint who returns to the service of Satan.

I don't dispute any of this but Mat 24:10 does not refute predestination of OSAS, neither does Mat 18:23. It all coincides perfectly and neither of these verses trump 1 John 2:19. That, afterall is what you were trying to do, wasn't it? You were trying to find a verse that would trump what I said and make it not so. But that's not the Bible works.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't dispute any of this but Mat 24:10 does not refute predestination of OSAS, neither does Mat 18:23. It all coincides perfectly and neither of these verses trump 1 John 2:19. That, afterall is what you were trying to do, wasn't it? You were trying to find a verse that would trump what I said and make it not so. But that's not the Bible works.

Regarding whether Matthew 24:12 disproves OSAS:

1. The NT defines the "saints" as possessing perfected agape for God and men.
2. Matthew clearly is not referring to those who've never been converted - the unconverted do not ever possess agape.

Q. What do you call people who once possessed perfected agape for God and men which through iniquity allowed it to become cold, dead, imperfect agape?

A. Ex-saints - former heaven bound saints which are now hell bound (unless they repent and get some living perfected agape in them). Can OSAS stand this test of Biblical scrutiny? If so, please explain how these ex-saints with cold, dead imperfect agape can still be counted among the saints who possess perfected agape for God and man, two groups that are polar opposites.

 

[FHII]

Regarding whether Matthew 24:12 disproves OSAS:

• The NT defines the "saints" as possessing perfected agape for God and men.
• Matthew clearly is not referring to those who've never been converted - the unconverted do not ever possess agape.

Therefore, what do you call people who once possessed perfected agape for God and men which through iniquity allowed it to become cold, dead, imperfect agape? Ex-saints - former heaven bound saints which are now hell bound (unless they repent and get some living perfected agape in them).

Refresh my memory... Where in mat 18 or mat 24 is it referring to saints? Where does it say the parties spoken of were saints and are calked ex saints?

It seems to me you are looking to find such an example to trump or make void 1 john 2:19.

Gods Word does not cancel out Gods word. It has ammended it, but it doesn't trump it.

So if you find a verse that contradicts another verse (or as i say, trumps it), there is a problem in your thinking, not the bible. I speak that not to you, but for us all.