The Future Of Naughty Christians

[pom2014]

I'll have to remind you that before the Greek influence on the region there was no hades.

There was only sheol.

So the idea of a split land of the dead is totally against what God says. The Abraham bosom was a story for Jews that embraced the Greek ideals of the time. It was a story. Not fact.

The inane idea that every scrap of scripture was a fact is erroneous. There was no prodigal son, there was no good Samaritan, there was no certain king nothing. They were stories used to teach a lesson.

The King said there is only two places for people, heaven or hell. And hell is cast into the lake of fire with death and destroyed. No more hell, no more death, no more sadness, no more evil, no more anything that is contrary to what God had intended all along.

I can't see why that's so hard a concept for anyone. Black and white, true or false, reverse or obverse, left or right, one or zero. Dichotomy. Its what the physical universe is all about.

But that will change at the end. Sinners do not go to a lesser or greater death. They all have the same death. There is no difference in punishment for an unrepentant murderer than from an unrepentant liar. Death is death.

Break the rules and you die. Full stop.

 

[KingJ]

Break the rules and you die. Full stop

Does that sound right? If the unsaved don't treat people like that, what makes you think God is worse?

 

[ATP]

The significance of mortal sins is that it points to being further lost / closer to sin of a full measure / closer to provoking God's wrath.

Actually, believers are not appointed to God's wrath, ever.

 

[DogLady19]

Your strongest argument is to quote Jesus in Matt 5 saying ''if we think of adultery, we have committed it''. But that is as easily debunked as me asking you to read two verses down to where Jesus says ''do not divorce except for actual adultery''. Matt 5 is full of rhetorical overstatements. Like for example ''do not resist and evil person' = allow yourself to be raped? The point Jesus made is that we have all fallen short.


Ignoring mortal sins is the excuse for homosexuals, murderers and adulterers to think they deserve the same punishment as others. That is not true in this life or the next.

Paul did not see one sin above another... he was pointing out that there is a life of sin as opposed to just sinning in an otherwise righteous lifestyle. If you live a life of sin, then you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If you live a life of righteousness (striving to be like Jesus) and sin, you will be forgiven.

The only "mortal" sin is the sin of rejecting God's salvation and calling upon your life.

God made "rhetorical overstatements"??? That would make Him a manipulator, a sinner...

 

[KingJ]

Actually, believers are not appointed to God's wrath, ever.

ATP it doesn't really matter what you or I believe. Paul tells us all in simple speech that if we die as adulterers / homosexuals / murderers / idolaters....we have one destination.

The only argument you can raise that has validity is if you say the saved would not do such.

1. Paul did not see one sin above another... he was pointing out that there is a life of sin as opposed to just sinning in an otherwise righteous lifestyle. If you live a life of sin, then you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If you live a life of righteousness (striving to be like Jesus) and sin, you will be forgiven.

2. The only "mortal" sin is the sin of rejecting God's salvation and calling upon your life.

3. God made "rhetorical overstatements"??? That would make Him a manipulator, a sinner...

1. 1 Cor 5: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. Sounds pretty specific to me.

2. Can a human outright reject Jesus in one action? If someone says they reject Jesus do they immediately go to hell? Handed over immediately to the devil? You need to understand that rejecting Jesus is not a single sin / action. It is an accumulation of sins from will / desire. The more mortal they are, the greater the desire to love what is evil / reject Jesus.

Does your church practice discipline? Do they / would they remove mortal sinners with those who tell a weekly white lie?

Like I said to ATP, do you think Christians continuing in any of those sins Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 6:9-12 will be in heaven? You and ATP know better then Paul?

3. A rhetorical overstatement does not make Him a liar. Jesus used them with parables to make a point Matt 5:28 and stress His heart condition Matt 5:39. It is like me telling my wife that 'I love her madly'. Does that mean I do crazy things? I am lying to her if I am not mad?

Do you believe a woman should not resist a rapist according to Matt 5:39. Yes or No?
Do you believe we should all divorce if we suspect our spouse has had thoughts of someone else according to Matt 5:28. Yes or No?

Jesus made an excellent point in Matt 5:28. His point that hits immediate home (because we have all had immoral thoughts) is that we are all sinners. But He clarifies that the only grounds for divorce is a mortal sin / actual adultery in verse 31.

 

[DogLady19]

ATP it doesn't really matter what you or I believe. Paul tells us all in simple speech that if we die as adulterers / homosexuals / murderers / idolaters....we have one destination.

The only argument you can raise that has validity is if you say the saved would not do such.


1. 1 Cor 5: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. Sounds pretty specific to me.

2. Can a human outright reject Jesus in one action? If someone says they reject Jesus do they immediately go to hell? Handed over immediately to the devil? You need to understand that rejecting Jesus is not a single sin / action. It is an accumulation of sins from will / desire. The more mortal they are, the greater the desire to love what is evil / reject Jesus.

Does your church practice discipline? Do they / would they remove mortal sinners with those who tell a weekly white lie?

Like I said to ATP, do you think Christians continuing in any of those sins Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 6:9-12 will be in heaven? You and ATP know better then Paul?

3. A rhetorical overstatement does not make Him a liar. Jesus used them with parables to make a point Matt 5:28 and stress His heart condition Matt 5:39. It is like me telling my wife that 'I love her madly'. Does that mean I do crazy things? I am lying to her if I am not mad?

Do you believe a woman should not resist a rapist according to Matt 5:39. Yes or No?
Do you believe we should all divorce if we suspect our spouse has had thoughts of someone else according to Matt 5:28. Yes or No?

Jesus made an excellent point in Matt 5:28. His point that hits immediate home (because we have all had immoral thoughts) is that we are all sinners. But He clarifies that the only grounds for divorce is a mortal sin / actual adultery in verse 31.

You do see that the list of sins in the various verses of the NT are all-encompassing, don't you? Everyone does some of them every day. All sin is forgivable because any sin separates you from God.

Jesus has no need to make "overstatements"... and I didn't say it would make Him a lair, I said it would make Him a manipulator... Look at it logically. Why does anyone make an overstatement? Why does anyone use rhetoric? It is a means of getting something you want from someone without being completely honest. It is a form of persuasion. God has no need to persuade anyone. He lays it out there, and you have a choice to take it or not.

I think you are taking Matthew 5:39 out of context. With that said, many survivors of rape did so by not resisting.

As for Matthew 5:28 - Jesus never mandated divorce for adultery. He said it's the only justification for divorce, and ONLY if your heart has become hardened. Not everyone who has a cheating spouse hardens their heart towards them.

And adultery is a forgivable sin. You know that.

 

[KingJ]

1. You do see that the list of sins in the various verses of the NT are all-encompassing, don't you? Everyone does some of them every day. All sin is forgivable because any sin separates you from God.

2. Jesus has no need to make "overstatements"... and I didn't say it would make Him a lair, I said it would make Him a manipulator... Look at it logically. Why does anyone make an overstatement? Why does anyone use rhetoric? It is a means of getting something you want from someone without being completely honest. It is a form of persuasion. God has no need to persuade anyone. He lays it out there, and you have a choice to take it or not.

3. I think you are taking Matthew 5:39 out of context. With that said, many survivors of rape did so by not resisting.

4. As for Matthew 5:28 - Jesus never mandated divorce for adultery. He said it's the only justification for divorce, and ONLY if your heart has become hardened. Not everyone who has a cheating spouse hardens their heart towards them.

And adultery is a forgivable sin. You know that.

1. I don't see that. Paul spoke about specific sins that disqualified elders. Paul addressed certain churches doing specific sins that others were not. How do you still think that when I showed you 1 Cor 5:1? Paul even says ''kind''. I even underlined and bolded it. Did Paul mean to say ''It is actually reported that there are people here committing the all encompassing sins, that are not the same as the all encompassing sins that pagans tend to tolerate: Some men are thinking of, others are sleeping with their father's wife and others are giving too much candy to kids''. You are completely twisting Paul's words. He will not be impressed with you in heaven. Now you can be forgiven for your belief as it is a popular belief. But as you can see it is actually nonsense / a half truth.

2. Matt 5:28 is an overstatement. I don't see how you can not read it as one. Adultery got you stoned to death OT. Jesus now says if you just think of it you have committed it ...deserve to be stoned to death? :lol:. He got everyone's attention with that statement! No manipulation. Just like with parables, Jesus knew He was talking to '''those in darkness'' who needed absolutely clear examples.

3. I can only think of scripture on the defense of weak and helpless to provide context. What context are you referring too? That many survived by not resisting is moot point. Would that be your advice to others?

4. Agreed. That does shed more light on Matt 5:31 but not Matt 5:28. All you have said is that adultery is justification. So now I just need to ask if the thought of adultery is justification, yes or no? Do you preach that? If not why not?

 

[BlackManINC]

-
It's interesting how human nature tends to grade itself on a curve. For
example, a surprising number of Christ's followers-- both his believing
followers and his unbelieving followers --seriously believe that LGBT are the
lowest form of sinners on the earth; but note the variety of behaviors in the
passage below ranked right up there with LGBT.

†. 1Cor 6:9-10 . . Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the
kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor
thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.

Some of the behaviors on that list have become so common in American
society that you'd think they were normal; e.g. sexual immorality, adultery,
theft, alcoholism, slander, and swindling.

I have seen 1Cor 6:9-10 on many occasions used to bash LGBT, but I cannot
remember even one instance of it being used to bash porn stars, or people
that sleep around, cohabitating couples, or people conceiving babies out of
wedlock, or people cheating on their spouses, or that shop lift, or Ponzi
schemers, or unscrupulous investment bankers, or Wall Street barracudas,
or heavy drinkers, or people that say things about others that aren't true.
Curious, isn't it?

An example is Oregon's ex governor John Kitzhaber. Not only was he
shacking up with a girlfriend while in office, but they were living together
right inside the Governor's mansion; and the media, instead of raking
Kitzhaber over the coals for his indiscretion, took to calling his paramour
The First Lady.

Supposing one of Christ's believing followers is pegged in that list of scum
bags that Paul compiled in 1Cor 6:9-10. Will they be banned from the
kingdom if they don't cease and desist whatever it is they're up to that's no
good?

=============================================

You should have just called this thread the future of unrepentant naughty scum bags Mr. Webers_Home, because Biblically YOU and everyone that's ever existed apart from Jesus are all scum bags. The difference is we as Christians admit that we are scum bags, unbelievers however, either believe that they are inherently "good" or "righteous" or can work themselves towards it, even though the Bible clearly states that there is none "good" but God almighty and there is no possible way you can become "good" in Gods eyes by your works. This is the Gospel in a nutshell, Mr. Weber's, the law condemns, but the Gospel redeems.

 

[ATP]

ATP it doesn't really matter what you or I believe. Paul tells us all in simple speech that if we die as adulterers / homosexuals / murderers / idolaters....we have one destination.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV But that is what some of you were.................................................

 

[KingJ]

1 Cor 6:11 NIV But that is what some of you were.................................................

Oh I don't disagree at all, as long as it remains were...........because if it doesn't, then it becomes are and those warnings are for us too.

 

[ATP]

Oh I don't disagree at all, as long as it remains were...........because if it doesn't, then it becomes are and those warnings are for us too.

Notice it says in 1 Cor 6:11 NIV "in the name of Jesus". What is it saying there, why does it say name?

 

[Webers_Home]

-

1 Cor 6:11 NIV But that is what some of you were

See post #13

_________________________________________

Somebody may have already pointed this out, but the most important
category that Paul listed in 1Cor 6:9-11 is the "unrighteous" category. Well
correct me if I'm wrong but the only righteousness that God will accept is
the righteousness of Christ, which is a righteousness impossible to produce
by human effort and that's because it's an imputed righteousness.

So even if somebody is no longer sexually immoral, nor an adulterer, nor a
male prostitute, nor a homosexual offender, nor a thief, nor greedy, nor an
alcoholic, nor a slanderer, nor a swindler; they will still go to hell when they
pass on if they leave here without the righteousness of Christ.

====================================

 

[DogLady19]

1. I don't see that. Paul spoke about specific sins that disqualified elders. Paul addressed certain churches doing specific sins that others were not. How do you still think that when I showed you 1 Cor 5:1? Paul even says ''kind''. I even underlined and bolded it. Did Paul mean to say ''It is actually reported that there are people here committing the all encompassing sins, that are not the same as the all encompassing sins that pagans tend to tolerate: Some men are thinking of, others are sleeping with their father's wife and others are giving too much candy to kids''. You are completely twisting Paul's words. He will not be impressed with you in heaven. Now you can be forgiven for your belief as it is a popular belief. But as you can see it is actually nonsense / a half truth.

2. Matt 5:28 is an overstatement. I don't see how you can not read it as one. Adultery got you stoned to death OT. Jesus now says if you just think of it you have committed it ...deserve to be stoned to death? :lol:. He got everyone's attention with that statement! No manipulation. Just like with parables, Jesus knew He was talking to '''those in darkness'' who needed absolutely clear examples.

3. I can only think of scripture on the defense of weak and helpless to provide context. What context are you referring too? That many survived by not resisting is moot point. Would that be your advice to others?

4. Agreed. That does shed more light on Matt 5:31 but not Matt 5:28. All you have said is that adultery is justification. So now I just need to ask if the thought of adultery is justification, yes or no? Do you preach that? If not why not?

1. I didn't say "all encompassing sins"... that changes the meaning of what I said drastically...
I said the list of sins is all-encompassing, as in: The list of sins covers the gamut of sinful behavior seen in every person.

2. Matthew 5:28: Did you forget that Jesus fulfilled the law? That we no longer live under the law, but under grace. So no, adultery (or the thought of it) is not a sentence of death by stoning.

3. Matthew 5:39: In context, He is explaining that vengeance is His. We do not repay evil for evil on our own.

Abuse of power was rampant in Jesus' day... Did you know that the crowd that tried to stone the adulteress were breaking the law themselves? Only a magistrate could impose the penalty for breaking a law.

Jesus, IN CONTEXT, was telling them that it isn't their job to impose punishment on law-breakers. Jesus expects us to forgive the wrong-doer, and leave the punishment to Him.

IN CONTEXT, a slap on the face is an assault to one's dignity, not at the level of rape.

IN CONTEXT, Matthew 5 is a lesson on righteousness directed at His followers, not a lesson on legal rights or for unbelievers.

4. Adultery in your mind violates the 10th Commandment. It has always been a sin.

I don't "preach" at all... and I don't ever single out one sin to condemn when I myself sin everyday. But I would follow these instructions when confronting someone about their sin:

"Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently." Galatians 6:1

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

 

[ATP]

See post #13

See post #14. What does the "name of Christ" and "inheritance" mean to you.

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Webers_Home]

-

See post #14.

NO!

=====================================

 

[ATP]

-

NO!

=====================================

Then focus on post 34.

 

[Webers_Home]

Then focus on post 34.

NO!

====================================

 

[ATP]

Ok, well for anyone who would like to learn more..what does the "name of Christ" and "inheritance" mean here..

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

When we believe in the name of Jesus, we are believing in the resurrection and life of Jesus Christ. We are believing He is in fact our Savior and redeemer from death to life. Once you believe, God the Father sends His Holy Spirit to you, to indwell you and mark you with His seal. By believing in the name of Jesus, we then and only then become born again. What are we believing in? That Jesus is God, died for your sins and then rose again, and we are believing in a Savior. We are only believing once here...

John 1:12 NIV Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.)

1 John 2:12 NIV I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

You might be asking, well isn't 1 Cor 6:9-10 NIV speaking of believers? The answer is no. Notice it says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God". Well, scripture plainly states that our inheritance can never perish, spoil or fade, it is kept in heaven for you and is waiting for us at the first resurrection..

Dan 12:13 NIV "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

 

[KingJ]

NO!

====================================

Why would you spoil your own thread? ATP has less say then you?

Ok, well for anyone who would like to learn more..what does the "name of Christ" and "inheritance" mean here..

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

When we believe in the name of Jesus, we are believing in the resurrection and life of Jesus Christ. We are believing He is in fact our Savior and redeemer from death to life. Once you believe, God the Father sends His Holy Spirit to you, to indwell you and mark you with His seal. By believing in the name of Jesus, we then and only then become born again. What are we believing in? That Jesus is God, died for your sins and then rose again, and we are believing in a Savior. We are only believing once here...

John 1:12 NIV Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.)

1 John 2:12 NIV I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

You might be asking, well isn't 1 Cor 6:9-10 NIV speaking of believers? The answer is no. Notice it says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God". Well, scripture plainly states that our inheritance can never perish, spoil or fade, it is kept in heaven for you and is waiting for us at the first resurrection..

Dan 12:13 NIV "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

Thanks for the effort in your post here.

You are presuming though. ''They will not inherit the kingdom'' = anyone who does such. They = They who do X and Y. As I have already said it is the '''ers'' that stands out in 1 Cor 6:9-12. Adulterers = continuing unrepentant. That is not something a Christian will/ should do. If we truly love Jesus we will desire immediate repentance of such mortal sins.

As for name, I agree, nobody can snatch us out of His hands. God and us are excluded from this statement however. We can jump 1 Tim 1:19 and He can spew.

Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

 

[DogLady19]

Ok, well for anyone who would like to learn more..what does the "name of Christ" and "inheritance" mean here..

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

When we believe in the name of Jesus, we are believing in the resurrection and life of Jesus Christ. We are believing He is in fact our Savior and redeemer from death to life. Once you believe, God the Father sends His Holy Spirit to you, to indwell you and mark you with His seal. By believing in the name of Jesus, we then and only then become born again. What are we believing in? That Jesus is God, died for your sins and then rose again, and we are believing in a Savior. We are only believing once here...

John 1:12 NIV Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.)

1 John 2:12 NIV I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

You might be asking, well isn't 1 Cor 6:9-10 NIV speaking of believers? The answer is no. Notice it says "they will not inherit the kingdom of God". Well, scripture plainly states that our inheritance can never perish, spoil or fade, it is kept in heaven for you and is waiting for us at the first resurrection..

Dan 12:13 NIV "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

I'm with you on this ATP. Not sure why some here are having trouble with the concept of a Christian sinning vs a person unrepentantly living a sinful life.

Wasn't it Paul who said "I die daily"? So, even those who are saved must surrender everyday and resist the temptation to sin.