The Future Of Naughty Christians

[Webers_Home]

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It's interesting how human nature tends to grade itself on a curve. For
example, a surprising number of Christ's followers-- both his believing
followers and his unbelieving followers --seriously believe that LGBT are the
lowest form of sinners on the earth; but note the variety of behaviors in the
passage below ranked right up there with LGBT.

†. 1Cor 6:9-10 . . Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the
kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor
thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.

Some of the behaviors on that list have become so common in American
society that you'd think they were normal; e.g. sexual immorality, adultery,
theft, alcoholism, slander, and swindling.

I have seen 1Cor 6:9-10 on many occasions used to bash LGBT, but I cannot
remember even one instance of it being used to bash porn stars, or people
that sleep around, cohabitating couples, or people conceiving babies out of
wedlock, or people cheating on their spouses, or that shop lift, or Ponzi
schemers, or unscrupulous investment bankers, or Wall Street barracudas,
or heavy drinkers, or people that say things about others that aren't true.
Curious, isn't it?

An example is Oregon's ex governor John Kitzhaber. Not only was he
shacking up with a girlfriend while in office, but they were living together
right inside the Governor's mansion; and the media, instead of raking
Kitzhaber over the coals for his indiscretion, took to calling his paramour
The First Lady.

Supposing one of Christ's believing followers is pegged in that list of scum
bags that Paul compiled in 1Cor 6:9-10. Will they be banned from the
kingdom if they don't cease and desist whatever it is they're up to that's no
good?

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[pom2014]

The problem is that in the modern Christian community over 80 percent are engaged or have engaged in adultery.

So that many, unless they repent and do it no more, will not see the Kingdom.

 

[KingJ]

There are two things I take from that passage.

1. It says adulterers, homosexual offenders

ers = continuing in. It is referring to those in unrepentant sin.

2. It mentions mortal sins. Not venial sins.

So I conclude that those who continue in mortal sins unrepentant will not be in heaven.

All who make the 'mistake' of adultery will be in heaven.

I have seen 1Cor 6:9-10 on many occasions used to bash LGBT, but I cannot
remember even one instance of it being used to bash porn stars, or people
that sleep around, cohabitating couples, or people conceiving babies out of
wedlock, or people cheating on their spouses, or that shop lift, or Ponzi
schemers, or unscrupulous investment bankers, or Wall Street barracudas,
or heavy drinkers, or people that say things about others that aren't true.
Curious, isn't it?

This question has been adressed in the ''born homosexual thread''.

Adulterers are not in my face rioting and demanding I accept their lifestyle choice / approve of marriage in my church. They are mostly IN THE CLOSET!!!!!!!

 

[pom2014]

Adulterers are not in my face rioting and demanding I accept their lifestyle choice / approve of marriage in my church. They are mostly IN THE CLOSET!!!!!!!

They are certainly in my face. In film, on my tele, in print and digital. They have whole books, movies and songs to glorify it. They push it everywhere.

So you must be completely alone on an island somewhere away from both people and animals, as animals cheat too.

It is so glorified in society that even the church allows it to happen and endorses it by granting marriages to adulterers. WHY? Because that hall for the reception afterwards is a money maker.

 

[Webers_Home]

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†. 1Cor 10:1-6 . . Brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that
all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and
were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the
same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they
drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown
in the wilderness.

Although everyone over the age of twenty was forced to die in the
wilderness except for Joshua and Caleb; none were sent back to die in
Egypt. In other words: God didn't un-save them.

Though God sentenced His people's adults to die in the wilderness; He never
once abandoned them, and He went right on providing for them too. And
though Aaron and the Levites were among those to die, God didn't
decommission the priesthood; nor shut down any of the Tabernacle services.

I committed an act of insubordination back when I was in the US Army in
the early decade of the 1960's. Because of it I was passed over for a
promotion. They didn't kick me out of the Army; I kept right on soldiering till
my enlistment was up and was given an Honorable Discharge.

The point is: though Yhvh's people, whom God rescued from Egyptian
slavery, lost their chance to enter the land of milk and honey, they weren't
kicked out of the family of God. They lost a major blessing yes; but they
kept right on being God's people-- that status was totally unaffected.

†. 1Cor 10:6-15 . . Now these things were our examples, to the intent we
should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters,
as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and
drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of
them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let
us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of
serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were
destroyed of the destroyer.

. . . Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are
written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

. . .There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but
God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;
but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able
to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to
wise men; judge ye what I say.

So then, the lesson is-- at least partially --that if Christ's believing followers
make the same mistakes that Yhvh's people made, they won't lose their
place in God's family. However, those mistakes can cause Christ's believing
followers to lose some major blessings and/or even end up very ill or very
deceased.

FYI: Paul said "I speak as to wise men". Well, I'm afraid not very many
Christians are wise enough to understand the proper application of 1Cor
10:1-15 but instead go about using it as a proof text that Christ's naughty
followers can become un-saved. Trouble is: there's more unwise than wise
so the unwise are heard more often than the wise. And like they say: Repeat
false information often enough and in time people will think it's true;
especially when the information is endorsed by someone they trust.

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[KingJ]

They are certainly in my face. In film, on my tele, in print and digital. They have whole books, movies and songs to glorify it. They push it everywhere.

So you must be completely alone on an island somewhere away from both people and animals, as animals cheat too.

It is so glorified in society that even the church allows it to happen and endorses it by granting marriages to adulterers. WHY? Because that hall for the reception afterwards is a money maker.

All sin is pushed everywhere. But you don't get the point made. Your gay friends are eager to be loud and in your face. Take you to court if you speak against them. Your friends in adultery are not.

Well my church and the Catholic church doesn't, But I can agree many do. Adultery warranted the death penalty just like homosexuality. They both equally disgusting so lets stop discussing.

So then, the lesson is-- at least partially --that if Christ's believing followers
make the same mistakes that Yhvh's people made, they won't lose their
place in God's family. However, those mistakes can cause Christ's believing
followers to lose some major blessings and/or even end up very ill or very
deceased.

What?????

The lesson is that God is very patient and longsuffering. But that the end of those who trample His goodness is death!!!

What is clear is that ANYONE living in unrepentant mortal sins will die and go to hell.
What part of ''they will not be in heaven'' is confusing?

 

[DogLady19]

2. It mentions mortal sins. Not venial sins.

Mortal and venial sins? Didn't Jesus die to forgive ALL sins and not just some? Or was His blood not good enough of a sacrifice to forgive ALL sin? An unrepentant thief needs Jesus' blood as much as an unrepentant fornicator...

ALL sin is forgivable by God. Otherwise, it cheapens the sacrifice He made of His only Son.

 

[pom2014]

Mortal and venial sin is the human dodge for saying my sin is less sinful then another sin.

All sin, ALL will carry death if you don't repent and stop doing it.

No one is going to die less than another dependent on the severity of their sin. They ALL die.

 

[ATP]

Supposing one of Christ's believing followers is pegged in that list of scum
bags that Paul compiled in 1Cor 6:9-10. Will they be banned from the
kingdom if they don't cease and desist whatever it is they're up to that's no
good?

No, Paul is describing non believers in verse 9, 10.
If they are truly born again they are going into the kingdom.
If they are in these lists of sins Paul described, God will convict the believer.
Notice verse 11 says, "And that is what some of you were".

Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Also notice the word "inherit" in verse 10. Scripture teaches us that we have been adopted into an inheritance by the seal of God which makes us heirs of Christ. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children Rom 8:16 NIV, and we are shielded by God's power 1 Peter 1:5 NIV.

Dan 12:13 NIV "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Rom 8:15-17 NIV The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Gal 3:29 NIV If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 1:4-5 NIV For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

 

[Webers_Home]

No

Yes.

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[ATP]

Yes.

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How so? I see you left out 1 Cor 6:11 NIV.

 

[DogLady19]

How so? I see you left out 1 Cor 6:11 NIV.

That says it all...

 

[Webers_Home]

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How so? I see you left out 1 Cor 6:11 NIV.

I'm going to deliberately misquote a portion of that verse. Watch for the
revision.

"And that is what some of you were; but you reformed."

Again:

"And that is what some of you were; but you were cured"

Again:

"And that is what some of you were; but no more"

No, that is not what the verse says; but nevertheless, that is how some
people's minds interpret it because of the past tense verb "were".

If you were to ask me, in the past tense: "Cliff; what were you when Christ
washed, sanctified, and justified you in 1968?" I would reply, in the past
tense: "I was a welder." See how that syntax works? It in no way implies
that I'm no longer a welder; it only states that I was a welder back in 1968.

You know, I've never seen it to fail that wherever the gospel goes, there's
always somebody on hand to pull the rug out from under its beneficiaries with
a slipshod interpretation.

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[ATP]

I'm going to deliberately misquote a portion of that verse. Watch for the
revision.

Brother... washed, sanctified and justified are words that describe salvation. How were we washed, sanctified and justified? By believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ John 1:12 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, 1 John 3:23 NIV. The name of Jesus carries weight Webers. (1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.) We are only believing once on His name, and then we are sealed until redemption..

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 7:38 NIV Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."

John 11:25-26 NIV Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 16:8-11 NIV When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Gal 3:22 NIV But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 John 5:13 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

- ATP

 

[DogLady19]

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I'm going to deliberately misquote a portion of that verse. Watch for the
revision.

"And that is what some of you were; but you reformed."

Again:

"And that is what some of you were; but you were cured"

Again:

"And that is what some of you were; but no more"

No, that is not what the verse says; but nevertheless, that is how some
people's minds interpret it because of the past tense verb "were".

If you were to ask me, in the past tense: "Cliff; what were you when Christ
washed, sanctified, and justified you in 1968?" I would reply, in the past
tense: "I was a welder." See how that syntax works? It in no way implies
that I'm no longer a welder; it only states that I was a welder back in 1968.

You know, I've never seen it to fail that wherever the gospel goes, there's
always somebody on hand to pull the rug out from under its beneficiaries with
a slipshod interpretation.

=========================================

Once you are sanctified and washed by the blood of Jesus, you are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old self is dead. So once sanctified, you are no longer "sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers"...

We do not continue in sin once we have been sanctified. Sure we mess up (fall short, sin), but we do not "live in sin"... we do not continue a perpetual state of sin, being sexually immoral, thieves, greedy, etc.

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?...For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" Romans 6:1-2 & 6

 

[Webers_Home]

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Once you are sanctified and washed by the blood of Jesus, you are a new
creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). The old self is dead,.etc, etc

†. 2Cor 5:17-18 . . From now on we regard no one from a worldly point of
view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the
new has come!

Back in the decade of the nineteen-seventies, I consulted a radio pastor in
Vista California to ask him a question that was really eating at my insides. I
explained that 1John 3:9 says that born-again Christians not only don't
practice sin; but they cannot practice sin. So I logically concluded that I
must not be born again because I was still sinning.

The pastor pointed out that the man who penned 1John 3:9 is the self-same
man who penned 1John 1:8-10; which essentially says that if born-again
Christians claim to be sinless they are not only delusional; but also
insinuating that God is dishonest. And the pronouns "us" and "we" implicate
the author just as much as they implicate his readers.

The pastor went on to explain that the birth about which Christ spoke at
John 3:3-8 does not remove one's human nature; not in this life anyway.
No, born-again Christians retain their human nature and it resides within
them right alongside the divine nature that they obtained from undergoing
the Spirit birth.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born
of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the Spirit of course never sins, nor can it sin because it
takes after God, who cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18) who cannot sin (1John
1:5) and who cannot be tempted to sin (Jas 1:13). But of course human
nature never gives up on sinning because it takes, not after God, but after
Adam; thus the necessity of 1John 1:9

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"our sins" aren't committed by that which is born of the Spirit, but by that
which is born of the flesh; viz: human nature; which born-again Christians
retain until their natural body's demise. That's when the circumcision spoken
of at Col 2:11 takes over and deceased born-again Christians shed their
human nature like a dead skin; which indeed it is.

†. Rom 6:6 . . For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that
the body of sin might be done away with; that we should no longer be slaves
to sin

†. Col 3:3-4 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in
glory.

Bottom line: The Spirit birth about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, and the
circumcision about which Paul wrote at Col 2:11, assure that Christ's
naughty followers won't be naughty in the future. But of course this only
applies to Christ's believing followers. His entourage of disbelieving followers
are excluded.

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[DogLady19]

Bottom line: The Spirit birth about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, and the
circumcision about which Paul wrote at Col 2:11, assure that Christ's
naughty followers won't be naughty in the future. But of course this only
applies to Christ's believing followers. His entourage of disbelieving followers
are excluded.

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Every believer and follower of Christ sins every day... They have to continually and boldly go the Throne of Grace for forgiveness and strength to resist temptation. They must die daily. They must be repentant.. and repentance is a process, not a one-time act.

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Romans 7:15-25

 

[KingJ]

Mortal and venial sins? Didn't Jesus die to forgive ALL sins and not just some? Or was His blood not good enough of a sacrifice to forgive ALL sin? An unrepentant thief needs Jesus' blood as much as an unrepentant fornicator...

ALL sin is forgivable by God. Otherwise, it cheapens the sacrifice He made of His only Son.

Jesus died for all sin and yes all sin can be forgiven. No sin is in God's presence. The significance of mortal sins is that it points to being further lost / closer to sin of a full measure / closer to provoking God's wrath. We can't ignore that Paul described sins above others. 1 Cor 5 is not Paul rebuking Christians for thinking immorally. We can't ignore that God inspired OT prophets and elders to punish evil (not crime) according to its severity.

Did God destroy the people of Sodom for not giving candy to kids, giving too much candy to kids or for their sin being full measure? Full measure = a murderer can be a gay, a thief and give too much candy to kids. As for a thief, he will hesitate to murder.

Your strongest argument is to quote Jesus in Matt 5 saying ''if we think of adultery, we have committed it''. But that is as easily debunked as me asking you to read two verses down to where Jesus says ''do not divorce except for actual adultery''. Matt 5 is full of rhetorical overstatements. Like for example ''do not resist and evil person' = allow yourself to be raped? The point Jesus made is that we have all fallen short.

Mortal and venial sin is the human dodge for saying my sin is less sinful then another sin.

All sin, ALL will carry death if you don't repent and stop doing it.

No one is going to die less than another dependent on the severity of their sin. They ALL die.

Ignoring mortal sins is the excuse for homosexuals, murderers and adulterers to think they deserve the same punishment as others. That is not true in this life or the next.

What part of this verse confuses you? Rom 2:6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."

 

[pom2014]

Kingj I go only by what the King said.

No sinner will see the kingdom. None, nada, nil, zip. So where would they go?

To death.

The King made that quite clear and revelation backs that up.

Now you have the Kings name in your moniker right? Why would you refuse the actual words of the King?

 

[KingJ]

Kingj I go only by what the King said.

No sinner will see the kingdom. None, nada, nil, zip. So where would they go?

To death.

The King made that quite clear and revelation backs that up.

Now you have the Kings name in your moniker right? Why would you refuse the actual words of the King?

Haha, I have grown to like the way you say the ''King says'' ^_^.

I agree with you Pom. Sinners go to death.

As is most often the case in discussion with you I have to just remind you that the King also says Rom 2:6.

I am also wondering if you know that ''sin'' per sae has never equaled Hades / hell? Both those in Abrahams bosom and Hades OT had sin. Loving sin / darkness gets you into hell John 3:19 and continuing in mortal sins points to that.