The Future Of Naughty Christians

[DogLady19]

The point on paradise is that WE got ourselves there OT. Paradise is not heaven. It was a waiting place.

My only point is that mortal sins point to being further lost. Of course a repentant mortal sinners goes to heaven. Of course an unrepentant white liar goes to hell. God sees a heart that loves darkness > light John 3:19. God is the judge, not us. But God forbid we wear blind folds when scripture says we can know someone by their works.

I have no idea how anyone can be "further lost" than not being saved. Show me scriptures that explain these degrees of lost-ness.

And show me the scriptures that says paradise is a waiting place.

 

[ATP]

My only point is that mortal sins point to being further lost.

Actually, the word "lost" never applies to believers..

Matt 10:5-7 NIV These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Luke 15:4-7 NIV “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

- ATP

 

[KingJ]

1 I have no idea how anyone can be "further lost" than not being saved. Show me scriptures that explain these degrees of lost-ness.

2 And show me the scriptures that says paradise is a waiting place.

1. I have been giving you scripture with detailed explanations from post # 1 -_-. All you have given me is an opinion off a rhetorical overstatement by Jesus. Can you give me scripture that says all sin = sin other then Matt 5:28 and Mary about to be stoned?

2. Luke 16.

Actually, the word "lost" never applies to believers..

Matt 10:5-7 NIV These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Luke 15:4-7 NIV “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

- ATP

If we see people going to church and suddenly delve into mortal sins....we must believe they were not Christians or that they are making shipwreck of their salvation? The first is playing God. The second is giving them the benefit of the doubt and using our God given brain to discern. As long as someone is living they should get the benefit of the doubt.

 

[DogLady19]

1. I have been giving you scripture with detailed explanations from post # 1 -_-. All you have given me is an opinion off a rhetorical overstatement by Jesus. Can you give me scripture that says all sin = sin other then Matt 5:28 and Mary about to be stoned?

2. Luke 16.

Saying Jesus used over-statements is an opinion too, you know... And I have said all along, God has no reason to use rhetoric. He's a straight-shooter. No reason to embellish or exaggerate.

I never heard anything about Mary "about to be stoned"... and if that really happened, then it was obviously a) by people who still followed the old law and/or; b) before the New Covenant - before Jesus fulfilled the law by taking the death-sentence for breaking the law upon Himself.

The law was not abolished. It was fulfilled. The law still stands but Jesus paid the penalty on our behalf.

The wages of ANY sin is death, not just some of them. That is why Jesus had to die to pay the penalty. If we choose to pay the penalty ourselves, we will die... and by "die" I mean eternally separated from God for eternity, which is the second death. Revelations 20

 

[KingJ]

Saying Jesus used over-statements is an opinion too, you know... And I have said all along, God has no reason to use rhetoric. He's a straight-shooter. No reason to embellish or exaggerate.

I never heard anything about Mary "about to be stoned"... and if that really happened, then it was obviously a) by people who still followed the old law and/or; B) before the New Covenant - before Jesus fulfilled the law by taking the death-sentence for breaking the law upon Himself.

The law was not abolished. It was fulfilled. The law still stands but Jesus paid the penalty on our behalf.

The wages of ANY sin is death, not just some of them. That is why Jesus had to die to pay the penalty. If we choose to pay the penalty ourselves, we will die... and by "die" I mean eternally separated from God for eternity, which is the second death. Revelations 20

So Jesus did not use parables?

Mary the prostitute.

Wages of sin is death, Amen. We just need to understand that sin / death has never ever automatically equaled hell.

 

[ATP]

If we see people going to church and suddenly delve into mortal sins....we must believe they were not Christians or that they are making shipwreck of their salvation? The first is playing God. The second is giving them the benefit of the doubt and using our God given brain to discern. As long as someone is living they should get the benefit of the doubt.

We shall know them by their fruits.

 

[DogLady19]

So Jesus did not use parables?

Mary the prostitute.

Wages of sin is death, Amen. We just need to understand that sin / death has never ever automatically equaled hell.

Parables are not overstatements. They are stories that teach a moral lesson. And Jesus always explained parables... "Turn the other cheek" was not said in parable... it was not an overstatement. In context, it pertained to personal/civil offenses, not sexual assaults and murders. Just do some cross-referencing on your favorite Bible study website. You don't have to take my word for it... I'd prefer that you didn't.

I already explained about the near-stoning of the adulteress and why Jesus stopped it. I have never seen any scripture about a prostitute named Mary about to be stoned. The only Mary's I know about are Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene whom Jesus cured of demon possession and sickness.

The "second death" ALWAYS equals HELL.

 

[KingJ]

1. Parables are not overstatements. They are stories that teach a moral lesson. And Jesus always explained parables... "Turn the other cheek" was not said in parable... it was not an overstatement. In context, it pertained to personal/civil offenses, not sexual assaults and murders. Just do some cross-referencing on your favorite Bible study website. You don't have to take my word for it... I'd prefer that you didn't.

2. I already explained about the near-stoning of the adulteress and why Jesus stopped it. I have never seen any scripture about a prostitute named Mary about to be stoned. The only Mary's I know about are Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene whom Jesus cured of demon possession and sickness.

3. The "second death" ALWAYS equals HELL.

1. Parables are used when speaking to people in darkness. Much like rhetorical overstatements and sarcasm. Consider Matt 6:26. They are not ''stories''. Hansel and Gretel is a story with a moral lesson.

That take on Matt 5:39 is rather silly. Do not resist personal loss but resist a rapist? Virginity is not personal loss? Someone taking your car and house is not raping / abusing you? Matt 5:39 reads just fine as a stand alone verse. The only issue is the reader needs common sense to grasp it is speaking of a heart condition and is 100% in contrast to eye for an eye.....all encompassing eye for an eye.

2. I am hoping you grasp that the prostitute did not continue whoring her body. Yes, it was not Mary. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I have made that mistake h34r:.

3. You are changing your statement now. The second death is after you are judged. You don't enter second death for having sin. You enter the second death for loving sin and hating what is good. Ie you don't want to repent. Ie you don't want to accept Jesus. Do babies have sin? Do babies go to hell?

What you need to try and grasp is that we all have sin. All those in Abrahams bosom OT were people with sin. But yet not en route to hell....

 

[DogLady19]

1. Parables are used when speaking to people in darkness. Much like rhetorical overstatements and sarcasm. Consider Matt 6:26. They are not ''stories''. Hansel and Gretel is a story with a moral lesson.

That take on Matt 5:39 is rather silly. Do not resist personal loss but resist a rapist? Virginity is not personal loss? Someone taking your car and house is not raping / abusing you? Matt 5:39 reads just fine as a stand alone verse. The only issue is the reader needs common sense to grasp it is speaking of a heart condition and is 100% in contrast to eye for an eye.....all encompassing eye for an eye.

2. I am hoping you grasp that the prostitute did not continue whoring her body. Yes, it was not Mary. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I have made that mistake h34r:.

3. You are changing your statement now. The second death is after you are judged. You don't enter second death for having sin. You enter the second death for loving sin and hating what is good. Ie you don't want to repent. Ie you don't want to accept Jesus. Do babies have sin? Do babies go to hell?

What you need to try and grasp is that we all have sin. All those in Abrahams bosom OT were people with sin. But yet not en route to hell....

1. Of course they are stories. They tell of fictional characters that represent real moral situations. Are you saying that the Prodigal Son was a real person? Matt 6:26 is not a parable. That is a truthful example of how much God cares for us. And it is not an overstatement!

2. The woman about to be stoned was an adulteress, not a prostitute, and yes, I believe she repented and did not commit adultery again.

3. Didn't change my statement. I mentioned the second death in an earlier post, and I have mentioned several times that there is more than one kind of death mentioned in the scriptures you and I have exchanged so far. I think this is where some confusion might lie... that when the Bible says the wages of sin is death, it refers to the second death. Everybody dies the first death, which is the end of our physical life. The second death refers to our spirit, which is eternal, and will spend eternity in Hell if we do not accept God's grace.

I don't know if babies go to hell. I don't think so because they do not yet have the conscious capacity to reject God. But many Christians believe that until you consciously accept God's grace, you're going to hell, and that would include babies. But I personally don't know.

4. The people in the OT had the law to keep them in relationship with God. They had a priest in the Holy of Holies to atone for their sins. We have Jesus, the ultimate high priest, to open that door. But yes, we all sin. But the sin that gets a person into hell is rejection of God's grace.

 

[KingJ]

1. Of course they are stories. They tell of fictional characters that represent real moral situations. Are you saying that the Prodigal Son was a real person? Matt 6:26 is not a parable. That is a truthful example of how much God cares for us. And it is not an overstatement!

2. The woman about to be stoned was an adulteress, not a prostitute, and yes, I believe she repented and did not commit adultery again.

3. Didn't change my statement. I mentioned the second death in an earlier post, and I have mentioned several times that there is more than one kind of death mentioned in the scriptures you and I have exchanged so far. I think this is where some confusion might lie... that when the Bible says the wages of sin is death, it refers to the second death. Everybody dies the first death, which is the end of our physical life. The second death refers to our spirit, which is eternal, and will spend eternity in Hell if we do not accept God's grace.

I don't know if babies go to hell. I don't think so because they do not yet have the conscious capacity to reject God. But many Christians believe that until you consciously accept God's grace, you're going to hell, and that would include babies. But I personally don't know.

4. The people in the OT had the law to keep them in relationship with God. They had a priest in the Holy of Holies to atone for their sins. We have Jesus, the ultimate high priest, to open that door. But yes, we all sin. But the sin that gets a person into hell is rejection of God's grace.

1. Well now you are saying what I have been saying. Yes, it is God's heart. If we read it literally, well we are not birds and we can't presume that no Christians are in poverty. I would add that it is Jesus being sarcastic. But no train smash if you don't read it like that.

2. Now what would have happened if she did continue in adultery? Did she continue in other sin?

3. You ignored the reference to Abrahams bosom. That fully explains my point. NO salvation. NO Jesus. Yet IN sin. IN death. But yet NOT suffering like those in Hades, why? God's grace had NOTHING to do with it. God's grace was Jesus which took them from paradise (death) to Heaven.

4. So how did those OT reject God's grace? Not repenting is rejecting God. Because Heaven is not a place for people who love evil > good. When we repent OT we found God Psalm 51:17. When we repent NT we find Jesus.

Sincere repentance carries weight. Much like a decision to marry. But continuing in mortal sins also carries weight. Much like adultery in marriage. If I bullied you your entire life, then took a bullet for you...You would immediately forget the past and tolerate many more evils from me. But should I kill your sister, rape your daughter...suddenly that bullet I took for you seems like it just may have been an accident / or I have allowed myself to become so lost to evil that you can no longer tolerate me.

Bottom line is that Christians or the unsaved who continue in mortal sins have their days numbered.

5. The baby example is meant to prove the madness in our beliefs. Babies do not go to hell, period. God is not evil. God explained / defined His nature to us in His word, using our vocabulary. God does not lie. So when He says He is good Psalm 136:1, He expect us to judge Him as good. Hence believing God can and will send a baby to hell just to fulfill a law that wages of sin = hell (not death cough cough) is ridiculously unscriptural. Just as proposing simply '''not saying the magical words ''I believe in Jesus'' gets you into hell''.

I know you are not guilty of half I am suggesting. This is not an attack on you.

 

[DogLady19]

I know you are not guilty of half I am suggesting. This is not an attack on you.

Thank you. And I understand... I don't have all the answers that you ask of me, but I am skeptical about the ones I've collected so far on this subject...

I am enjoying discussing this with you. And I pray for God to enlighten me, and help me sift out the doctrines of man from the truth of His Word. There is so much junk out there disguising itself as truth!

Let me mull on your last post over the weekend and get back to you...

In His grasp, DogLady