If only a "select few", then Adams sin effect more people than the cross of Christ. "As in Adam ALL die, so ALSO in Christ ALL will live. Christ has/will restore ALL that Adam broke.
The Garden or the Cross
- Thread starter Angelina
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so does the sin of the one man (Adam) have a greater effect on humanity then the one man (Christ Jesus)? Pauls answer is NO! Romans 5:15-21, the righteous of Christ bring justification to ALL those whom Adam cursed. Is God dependent upon man, or man dependent upon God for salvation. If man MUST DO anything for salvation, then its not all the blood of Christ. Its Blood + belief, or blood + repentance, or blood + acceptance, or blood + confession, or blood + obedience, acceptance, belief, confessing, forgiving, love, obedience, trust, serving, all these are verbs, action words, things you DO. Salvation is not of works lest anyman boast. If you contributed in anyway to your salvation then you can boast. But salvation is of God, its a gift. Faith is a gift.
God made man capable of sin just as he made the angels capable of sin. This does not mean that God allowed sin to go on unpunished but that through Adam's disobedience, God was able to restore what had been stolen from the beginning.
All the above is not salvation by works but faith in action. Faith has an action.
God is God and never does any thing more or less then He should have. He does all things exactly as He purposes.lforrest said:
Quantrill
Adams sin affected all of his race. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all of Adams race.lukethreesix said:
Yes, "in Christ all will live". But you have to be 'in Christ'. And not all are.
Quantrill
But, did God just restore what Adam lost. Or, as your original question was, have we been brought to a much higher place than the Garden? And, was that always the plan of God or was God just reacting to something?Angelina said:
Quantrill
Why was Jesus Christ the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world? Rev. 13:8Pelaides said:It sounds almost as if you are blaming God for adams disobediance,Adam was a man,he did not need a babysitter.
Seems as though God had a plan. And the fall of man was very much a part of that plan.
Quantrill
Yes, "in Christ all will live". But you have to be 'in Christ'. And not all are.
- Quantrill
Do we have to be "in Adam" to die?
1 Cor 15:22 makes it VERY clear! Paul uses the words "JUST AS" In Adam, "SO ALSO" in Christ.
Just as...so also...this means EXACTLY in the same way, effecting the same people Christ brings life to all those Adam cursed.
In Romans 5:15-21 Paul again makes it VERY clear..."The Many" were cursed becaused of Adam, "The Many" justified by Christ.
AGAIN, your theology teaches that Christs' blood is not enough to save. But His Blood must be added with your will power. That is so wrong. Gods will saves, not ours. God was not crossing His fingers when He sent Christ to "Save the World". Saying "Gee, I hope this works?" NO!!! Your putting the burden of salvation upon the shoulders of men, not on the shoulders of Christ where it belongs.
- Quantrill
Do we have to be "in Adam" to die?
1 Cor 15:22 makes it VERY clear! Paul uses the words "JUST AS" In Adam, "SO ALSO" in Christ.
Just as...so also...this means EXACTLY in the same way, effecting the same people Christ brings life to all those Adam cursed.
In Romans 5:15-21 Paul again makes it VERY clear..."The Many" were cursed becaused of Adam, "The Many" justified by Christ.
AGAIN, your theology teaches that Christs' blood is not enough to save. But His Blood must be added with your will power. That is so wrong. Gods will saves, not ours. God was not crossing His fingers when He sent Christ to "Save the World". Saying "Gee, I hope this works?" NO!!! Your putting the burden of salvation upon the shoulders of men, not on the shoulders of Christ where it belongs.
That is the way I see it too.
And if something "went wrong" it was in the heavenly realms (Satan & angels) before the earth and Adam were formed.
And somehow the effects are played out through mankind until the fallen Spirits are locked up for good.
Just an overview of my thoughts after 27 years of thinking about it. Kind of a ... "best guess"
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
If God planned Humanities Fall, He used evil to bring about Good. No one can use evil for any reason without being tainted by it. If God planned The Fall, He fell first. I do not believe God is evil.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I agree,until satan and his angels are removed from this world we will always have evil.Arnie Manitoba said:
Isaiah 45:7 (ESV): "I form light and create darkness,lukethreesix said:
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 (HCSB): "I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, Yahweh, do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV): "I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 (NASB): "The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these."
Isaiah 45:7 (JPS Tanakh): "I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe -
I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 (Orthodox Jewish Bible): I form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things."
In the Hebrew of Isaiah 45:7, the word that the KJV translates as "evil" is the Hebrew word ra' ( רָע )
Regarding the use of ra' in Isaiah 45:7, Nelson's Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament states the following:
"Moral "evil" is not intended in this context, but rather the antithesis of šālôm ("peace; welfare; well-being")."
So the KJV's rendition of Isaiah 45:7 isn't saying what the verse actually says in the Hebrew.
In this verse, ra' means adversity, which is how Strong's Concordance defines it and how the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon defines it.
So, the KJV mistranslates ra'.
Yes, those in Adam die. And all of the human race is in Adam. Which is why you and I will still experience death unless the Rapture comes first. Because though we are now 'in Christ', it is only our born-again spirits that are. Our body is still from Adam.lukethreesix said:
Again, yes, all in Christ will live. But you have to be 'in Christ'. That transference has to take place by faith in Christ. If faith in Christ is not there, then the individual is still only 'in Adam'.
Again, Christ's blood is sufficient to save all who are in Adam. Though it is sufficient doensn't mean all will be saved. They won't. Just because it is sufficient doesn't mean all are 'in Christ'. They are not. Only those who place faith in Christ.
No one is 'in Adam' except those born into that race. No one is 'in Christ' except those born into that race.
Quantrill
God is not evil. But God uses the evil that is there all the time. And no, God is not tainted with any evil just because He uses it. Who turned Job over to Satan? God. In fact, Who brought up Job to Satan in the first place? God.aspen said:
The brothers of Joseph sold Joseph into slavery. They did it for evil purpose. But God did it for good. God is not guilty of evil and God is not evil. He did it for good. But, He still did it.
Quantrill
Quantrill, do you honestly think you are saved because YOU were a little smarter, or a bit less stubborn or wicked than the next guy? You are saved because of what you have done? Sorry dude, God at some point knocked you off your horse, as he did Paul. He just hasn't knocked everyone off their horse yet.
At the Easter Vigil Mass the Deacon intones the Exultet. An ancient (5th century) and joyfull hymn praising God. It contains the stanza:Angelina said:
Father, how wonderful your care for us!
How boundless your merciful love!
To ransom a slave you gave away your Son.
O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I do not think evil makes us better. In fact, I think we chose how to learn about forgiveness the hard way.
Think about what you are actually saying in this statement - a parallel statement might be 'the President isn't a liar, but He uses lies that have already been told all the time'. Using a lie for the greater good is justifying the end with the means - it is immoral.
Liars are liars because they lie.
Do you really think the story of Job is about Gods morality? Far from it - if it was God would be immoral and unworthy of worship. Job is about Gods sovereignty over all His creation - He is watching over us through the good and the bad times of our lives - our justification, sanctification, the temporal consequences of our Fall and the consequences of our neighbors Fall on ourselves.
I agree with you that God brings Good from Evil, but that is not the same thing as USING Evil for Good. God does not need evil to bring about good things, but He is not going to let Evil stop Him from bringing about Good, either. CS Lewis and Jerry Sistter say it best when they describe the problem of pain - God always brings about blessings regardless of Pain - but the Pain is not required, nor is it worth the blessings. I believe Gods Will will be done in our lives regardless of all the consequences of the Fall. Jesus would have come for us even if we never sinned in the Garden - and He would have given us what we needed most - unfortunately, because of our Fall we needed Him to die for us the most. We would have learned forgiveness without the Fall, but, thankfully, God used the Fall to make forgiveness extra clear.
You just don't want to believe what the Bible says. I asked Who it was that turned Job over to Satan. Did God do it or not? And, we are told that it was God that sent Joseph into slavery. 'God meant it for good.' But evil was being used to accomplish it because the brothers did it for 'evil'.aspen said:
God is not a liar, but He can send a lying spirit. 1 Kings 22:22-23 " And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouthj of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. "
If the fall was not planned by God, why is Christ slain from the foundations of the world?
Quantrill
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Again you are talking about God's sovereignty. Everything that happened in the lives of all ancient people and every event recorded in the OT is described as Gods Will by His people because they valued His sovereignty over all other aspects of His character. The Bible is about God and how He interacts with us, but it is written from mans point of view. It tells us more about how man viewed God over the centuries than it does about Gods intentions or morality. The most valuable aspect of Gods character in the Bible is His prevailing faithfulness and never ending love for His people despite our self centered, extremely narrow focus of His intentions and the reality of the world around us. If your dog kept a journal of his relationship with you, no matter how much you revealed about yourself, and no matter how much you helped him understand love, he would focus on what is most important to him about the relationship - based on my experience owning a dog, it would be food related and intense happiness in the moment.Quantrill said:
The fact that the Bible is limited in its scope and understanding of God, does not mean God is limited - instead, it reveals our limitations for understanding the big picture. I believe the OT is accurate about what happened to His people, His faithfulness towards His people; and every word is inspired, but I also think, at times, the attempts of the authors to exalt Gods sovereignty over His other attributes is akin to a character assisination. The result is a god who can look nationalistic on the side of the 12 tribes; sadistic towards His people when they touch the Ark or fail to be circumcised (even when he fails to tell them that is why he is trying to kill Moses) or brings natural disasters to punish disobedience. I have no doubt that life was extremely difficult back then and that God allowed people to experience pain and death, but I do not agree with the intentions that the authors attribute to God regarding the pain they endured. It is a trait of humanity to justify pain by giving it meaning or justifying the intentions of the authority responsible for inflicting the pain. Abused women stay with there abusers because they are more afraid of the unknown - abused children return to their abusive parent for comfort, even when they know the parent will hurt them - it is called a disordered attachment. Ancient people responded to Gods faithfulness and love in the same way because they attributed all the pain in their lives to Him - they were superstitious, favored the strength of a tyrant over the fear of the unknown, and bent towards hedonism rather than unity. This is how it was during the centuries that God was reintroducing Himself to a Fallen people.
Of course, we are still prone to all of the insecurities and superstitious thinking that are written about in the OT, but Gods Spirit has also been at work in the lives and hearts of believers for the past 2,000 years and I believe we are able to trust Him more than ever - our world makes more sense, we understand that our neighbors are valuable and worthy of love because God loves us and them, and that pain in life is going to happen, but we are called to trust and love through it, not give in to bitterness and hatred. I believe in the power and commitment of God to justify, sanctify, and redeem us, despite our limitations.
So you can accuse me of throwing out all the hard parts of the Bible, if you want to; and tell me that I just can't face the difficult parts of Gods crushing power and the reality of His punishment for disobedience, but I will remind you that it would be immoral for me to obey and love a god that treats His people worse than I treat my dog. The fact is, I know better than to adore and worship any person or personage as emotionally unstable and sadistic as God is often portrayed by His people thoughout the OT.
One last thing - regarding God sending a lying spirit - it is just another example of attributing reality or predicted events to Gods sovereignty. People we trust lie - it is a painful, and dangerous fact, and it feels emotionally safer to attribute it to the iron will of an all powerful, punishing God than it does to the consequences of our own failed morality. It is the same reason we like to blame the devil for the consequences of our personal sin.
Folks, be careful with the way that you accuse others of wrongdoing.
Some accusations are insults and are in violation of this site's rules.
Some accusations are insults and are in violation of this site's rules.
aspen
Of course God is sovereign. But that is not what I am talking about. I am saying God is the One who gave Job over to Satan. I am saying God is the One who sent Joseph as a slave into Egypt. But, you are saying you cannot believe in a God like that.
Thus you call it 'character assasination' by the writers of the Old Testament.
You say you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, yet you say, " but I do not agree with the intentions that the authors attribute to God".
These statements show you do not believe every word is inspired because if you did you would believe the record as it is presented. But you don't. You believe the record as long as it presents God in the way you think He should be.
Did God send the lying spirit or not?
Why was Christ slain from the foundation of the world if the fall was not part of God's plan?
Quantrill
Of course God is sovereign. But that is not what I am talking about. I am saying God is the One who gave Job over to Satan. I am saying God is the One who sent Joseph as a slave into Egypt. But, you are saying you cannot believe in a God like that.
Thus you call it 'character assasination' by the writers of the Old Testament.
You say you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, yet you say, " but I do not agree with the intentions that the authors attribute to God".
These statements show you do not believe every word is inspired because if you did you would believe the record as it is presented. But you don't. You believe the record as long as it presents God in the way you think He should be.
Did God send the lying spirit or not?
Why was Christ slain from the foundation of the world if the fall was not part of God's plan?
Quantrill
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