The Garden

[Truthnightmare]

Gen 2:17 (God speaking to Adam)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (KJV)

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes*1, and a tree to be desired*2 to make one wise*3, she took*4 of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I think you will find that this is certainly no ordinary tree, for it wasn't a tree at all, it was satan. *1 pleasant to the eyes= Hebrew word #2530; chamad: To desire, to covet, to take pleasure in, to delight in, to be desirable, to delight greatly, to desire greatly, desirableness, preciousness.*2 desired = Hebrew word # 8378 ta'avah (tah-av-aw'); from 183 (abbreviated); to yearn for, to lust after (used of bodily appetites) a longing; by implication, a delight (subjectively, satisfaction, objectively, a charm): a desire, a wish, longings of one's heart; lust, an appetite, covetousness (in a bad sense), to covet, to wait longingly. *3 make one wise= Apple trees don't make you smart. But satan can fill your mind with evil 'wisdom' and evil thoughts! *4 took = Hebrew word # 3947 laqach (law-kakh'); a primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications): to take, to lay hold of, to receive, to marry, to take a wife, to take to or for a person, to procure, to get, to take possession of, to select, to choose, to take in marriage, to receive, to accept.

Is it not in the realm of possibility that sexual matters took place?

 

[Aunty Jane]

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes*1, and a tree to be desired*2 to make one wise*3, she took*4 of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Looking at the big picture.....
1) Why was there a “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” there in the first place?
2) Why was there such a severe penalty attached to partaking of the only fruit in the garden that was forbidden to them?
3) What was the payoff to satan in tempting them to eat it?
4) Was the fruit itself poisonous?
5) If the tree represented something, what might it have been?
6)Why was the partaking if this fruit so life altering?

Why don’t we start there...? How does the Bible answer?

How would you answer?

Is it not in the realm of possibility that sexual matters took place?

Since the very first emotion produced on partaking of the fruit was shame at their nakedness....why was it not enough for them to simply cover their private parts with fig leaves? Why did God make long garments of skin for them before he evicted them from the garden?

Unless we understand what took place at the beginning....we will never understand why God handled matters as he did.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Looking at the big picture.....
1) Why was there a “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” there in the first place?
2) Why was there such a severe penalty attached to partaking of the only fruit in the garden that was forbidden to them?
3) What was the payoff to satan in tempting them to eat it?
4) Was the fruit itself poisonous?
5) If the tree represented something, what might it have been?
6)Why was the partaking if this fruit so life altering?

Why don’t we start there...? How does the Bible answer?

How would you answer?


Since the very first emotion produced on partaking of the fruit was shame at their nakedness....why was it not enough for them to simply cover their private parts with fig leaves? Why did God make long garments of skin for them before he evicted them from the garden?

Unless we understand what took place at the beginning....we will never understand why God handled matters as he did.

A lot of questions, I will address the first and move on accordingly..

Why was there a “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” there in the first place?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is Satan. So the question becomes why was Satan there.
He (Satan) was there to disrupt the plan of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A lot of questions, I will address the first and move on accordingly..


The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is Satan. So the question becomes why was Satan there.
He (Satan) was there to disrupt the plan of God.

Thank you for the response.....is there scripture to back up what you believe here?

 

[Truthnightmare]

Thank you for the response.....is there scripture to back up what you believe here?

Yes, the Bible often uses trees to symbolize men or beings.

Mark 8:24
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

God is referenced as a tree.

Hosea 14:8
have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree.

Satan is a box cypress tree… Analogy of Satan..

Ezekiel 31
Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, the Bible often uses trees to symbolize men or beings.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

The significance of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and of the restriction placed on its fruit has often been incorrectly viewed as relating to the sexual act between the first human pair. This view is contradicted by God’s plain command to them as male and female to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” (Since God told them to have children, no sin was committed even if it was sex. Gen 1:18)

Rather, by God’s pronouncement, decreeing it to be out-of-bounds for the human pair, the tree became a symbol of God’s right to determine or set the standards for man as to what is “good” (approved by God) and what is “bad” (condemned by God). We see, even to this day, that humans have a problem discerning the difference. To some, good is bad, and bad is good....but if God sets the standard, then no excuses or arguments are needed.

So, it basically constituted a test of man’s respect for his Creator’s position, as well as his declared property.....and his willingness to remain within the area of freedom decreed by the Creator....an area that was by no means cramped and that allowed for the greatest enjoyment of human life. Therefore, to violate God’s command by eating of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” would be an a revolt against God’s Sovereign right to set limits on the freedom he offered them.

To eat of that tree, meant denial of access to “the tree of life” and the possibility of living forever in mortal flesh. (Gen 3:22-24) Only obedience would allow humans to eat of that fruit....

 

[Truthnightmare]

The significance of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and of the restriction placed on its fruit has often been incorrectly viewed as relating to the sexual act between the first human pair. This view is contradicted by God’s plain command to them as male and female to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” (Since God told them to have children, no sin was committed even if it was sex. Gen 1:18)

Rather, by God’s pronouncement, decreeing it to be out-of-bounds for the human pair, the tree became a symbol of God’s right to determine or set the standards for man as to what is “good” (approved by God) and what is “bad” (condemned by God). We see, even to this day, that humans have a problem discerning the difference. To some, good is bad, and bad is good....but if God sets the standard, then no excuses or arguments are needed.

So, it basically constituted a test of man’s respect for his Creator’s position, as well as his declared property.....and his willingness to remain within the area of freedom decreed by the Creator....an area that was by no means cramped and that allowed for the greatest enjoyment of human life. Therefore, to violate God’s command by eating of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” would be an a revolt against God’s Sovereign right to set limits on the freedom he offered them.

To eat of that tree, meant denial of access to “the tree of life” and the possibility of living forever in mortal flesh. (Gen 3:22-24) Only obedience would allow humans to eat of that fruit....

This view is contradicted by God’s plain command to them as male and female to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.”

The male and female (people/races) in Genesis 1 are not Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were formed in Genesis 2 not created in Genesis 1.

Also…

They are told to multiply.
"...Be fruitful and multiply..." (Gen 1:28)

No such command is given to Adam and Eve
(Adam's family was told to multiply after the flood; i.e., Noah's family was told in Gen 9:1).

But my notion is not relations between man and woman, but between Eve and the tree of knowledge (Satan)

 

[Aunty Jane]

The male and female (people/races) in Genesis 1 are not Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were formed in Genesis 2 not created in Genesis 1.

Also…

They are told to multiply.
"...Be fruitful and multiply..." (Gen 1:28)

No such command is given to Adam and Eve
(Adam's family was told to multiply after the flood; i.e., Noah's family was told in Gen 9:1).

I have heard this mentioned before, but there is no scriptural reason to believe that Gen 1 and Gen 2 are speaking about a different race of people......created in a different time period. Gen 2 is a “history” of the creation account, related not necessarily in chronological order.
We need to count back from a pivotal date to calculate when the human race made its appearance on planet earth.
The pivotal date for counting back to Adam’s creation is that of Cyrus’ overthrow of the Babylonian dynasty, 539 B.C.E. Cyrus issued his decree of liberation for the Jews during his first year, before the spring of 537 B.C.E.

Ezra 3:1 reports that the sons of Israel were back in Jerusalem by the seventh month, Tishri, corresponding to parts of September and October. So the autumn of 537 B.C.E. is reckoned as the date of the restoration of Jehovah’s worship in Jerusalem and marked the end of a prophetic period, which was the “seventy years” during which the Promised Land “must become a devastated place” and concerning which Jehovah also said that he would restore a remnant of Israel to their homeland after that.

When a famine brought Jacob’s family to Egypt seeking food, at Acts 7:6, mention is made of the seed of Abraham as being afflicted 400 years.....which brings us to 1913 B.C.E.

Going still farther back in the stream of time, we find that the Bible dates the period from the Deluge all the way to Adam’s creation. This is determined by Genesis 5:3-29 and Genesis 7:6.

Counting from Adam’s creation to the birth of Seth..... 130 years

Then to the birth of Enosh 105 “

To the birth of Kenan 90 “

To the birth of Mahalalel 70 “

To the birth of Jared 65 “

To the birth of Enoch 162 “

To the birth of Methuselah 65 “

To the birth of Lamech 187 “

To the birth of Noah 182 “

To the Deluge 600 “

Total 1,656 years between Adam’s creaction and the flood.

God repeated his Edenic mandate to Noah because these were now going to be the progenitors of the human race.
All humankind would descend from these 8 souls saved through the water that cleansed the earth of all its wickedness back then.....but it did not eliminate sin because Noah and his family were still descended from Adam. (Rom 5:12)

But my notion is not relations between man and woman, but between Eve and the tree of knowledge (Satan)

Where do you get the idea that the TKGE was satan?...and you think satan had relations with Eve? Are you serious? Where does it say that?.......if that is what you think the scenario in Eden was about.....then the Bible’s whole narrative collapses. What is redemption all about?
Why did Jesus have to be born as a human and give his life for mankind?

I have been down this rabbit hole before and not keen to go down there again. If the Bible does not specifically say so....and it does not even hint at such a scenario....it’s the product of a rather vivid imagination, IMO.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I have heard this mentioned before, but there is no scriptural reason to believe that Gen 1 and Gen 2 are speaking about a different race of people......created in a different time period. Gen 2 is a “history” of the creation account, related not necessarily in chronological order

Well let’s see……

In Genesis chapter One They all (plural) were CREATED. Created is Hebrew word #1254 bara' "...male and female created he them" (Gen 1:27)​	But in Genesis chapter Two Adam alone (singular) is FORMED Formed is Hebrew word #3335 yatsar "...in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed." (Gen 2:8)​
They are created male and female at the same time. No 'Adam's Rib' here!​	Adam is formed some time before Eve. She later being made from him.​
They were simply created, human and mortal. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"(Heb 9:27).​	Adam given the breath of life, became a living soul. (Adam would have lived forever had he not fell - see Gen 6:3 "for that he also is flesh"). Ask yourself, "also," as in whom else?​
They are told to multiply. "...Be fruitful and multiply..." (Gen 1:28)​	No such command is given to Adam and Eve (Adam's family was told to multiply after the flood; i.e., Noah's family was told in Gen 9:1).​
Mankind given dominion over animals and fish.​	Adam was a farmer.​
The animals were wild animals and the plants were wild plants. No names given.​	They were domestic animals and crop plants. Adam named these.​
There was not yet rain.​	"...went up a mist from the earth..."(Gen 2:6)​
The creation was completed. All the various races, men and women alike, were created. THEN ------ >>>​	But after that, in Gen 2:5, God saw that He "did not have a man to till the ground" (farmer). So God then FORMED Adam.​

But probably the most striking evidence that Genesis chapter Oneand Genesis chapter Two are not speaking of the same event would be:

In Gen 1, the plants and animals were created BEFOREman(kind) was created.
In Gen 2, the plants and animals were formed AFTER the man Adam was formed.

This immediately dismisses the misconception that the account in Gen 2 is merely a deeper explanation of the events in Gen 1, as many will say and teach. For if it were, then God 'messed up' on the order of His creation, which is of course impossible. When God and man are at variance, man is always wrong and God always right. Let's now go to the Creation Scriptures themselves for further evidence and documentation.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The Hebrew clarification of these events explains much…

CREATED: Hebrew word # 1254; bara' - to shape, to fashion, to create (always with God as subject) used of individual man,used of new conditions and circumstances, to be created, used of birth, used of something new. FORMED: Hebrew word # 3335; yatsar - to form, to fashion, to frame, used of human activity, used of divine activity, used of Israel as a people, to frame, to pre-ordain, to plan (figurative of divine) to purpose of a situation, to be predetermined, to be pre-ordained, to be formed. Gen 2:7) is the first time in the Bible that the title 'The Lord God' appears, and it is in connection with the forming of Adam in the garden of Eden. This title or name 'The Lord God' is: Jehovah 'Elohiym, and it means: The Lord God of the Angels. Prior to this, the title of the Creator of mankind on the sixth day was 'God' which as you remember is: 'Elohiym, and means: God and the Angels. (Gen 1:26). This serves to further distinguish the Forming of Adam from the creation of the rest of mankind in general. formed = Here again we see a unique word use in connection with Adam in the Garden of Eden. Compare the fact that Adam was FORMED, but those from the sixth day (Gen 1:27) were CREATED. Also notice that Adam was formed alone, for Eve does not show up until eighteen verses later in (Gen 2:22); but in the sixth day creation, man and women were created same simultaneously (Gen 1:27). The word “man” is a very special word in the Hebrew language, and this is the first time that it appears in connection with The Lord God . It is also seen in Gen 1:27 Gen 2:8, 2:15 and Gen 6:4, it has a special word in the Hebrew text that is not used in the English language. This particular English word 'man,' has in the Hebrew language what is called the article and it also has the particle. This makes this word very emphatic.

Eve will be MADE (Hebrew word #1129) from Adam later in Gen 2:22. The reason for Adam and Eve being singled out from the creation of the rest of mankind is because that through the womb of Eve, umbilical cord to umbilical cord, would eventually four-thousand years later, be born the Messiah Jesus the Christ. The Bible is basically the story of one man's family and the peoples that they encounter through-out history. That is the history of Adams family, through which Jesus Christ would come. And through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, all peoples from all the Nations (eth'-nos in the Greek of the New Testament, & goyem in the Hebrew of the Old Testament) of the earth can be grafted into the eternal family of God in the eternity, in Heaven.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Where do you get the idea that the TKGE was satan?...and you think satan had relations with Eve? Are you serious? Where does it say that?.......if that is what you think the scenario in Eden was about.....then the Bible’s whole narrative collapses. What is redemption all about?
Why did Jesus have to be born as a human and give his life for mankind?

I have been down this rabbit hole before and not keen to go down there again. If the Bible does not specifically say so....and it does not even hint at such a scenario....it’s the product of a rather vivid imagination, IMO.

Sorry you feel that way… But I can prove what I said.

Your disagreement is with the Bible not with me.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The seed of the woman (Eve) is Jesus.. Jesus literally was born from Eve through a bloodline.
Satan has a seed literal children from his union with Eve. You cannot disprove this, you simply don’t want to believe it because it tears down your understanding of scripture. Be that as it may. Peace to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But I can prove what I said.

There is no way that you can “prove” it unless there is a direct statement confirming what you believe. We could argue all day and it wouldn’t alter a thing. Like the triune godhead, there are scriptures that might suggest it if you twist them enough, but since there is no direct statement confirming it, it too is based on supposition and interpretation…..these are not facts. Your assumptions about who God created and when are therefore not provable….but you will hold to them anyway because you want to.

Your disagreement is with the Bible not with me.

My beliefs are in full agreement with the Bible, and the reason why the human race needs redemption as descendants of Adam….not just Noah. God did not wipe sin out of the world with the flood…he merely reset the path that the human race was treading, under influence from satan and his demons….cleansing it and starting again with a faithful, and more importantly, an obedient man who followed God’s direction to the letter. But sin being a powerful influence for the evil they introduced into the human race, it wasn’t long before rebellion reared it’s ugly head again….with Nimrod.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The meaning of this first recorded Bible prophesy remained a mystery for centuries until it was God’s time to reveal who the players were.
This prophesy revealed that there would be a deliverer who would destroy the one really represented by the serpent, namely, the great serpent and enemy of God, Satan the Devil. (Rev 12:9)
It also indicated that the Devil would have a “seed.” It would require time for the two seeds to be brought forth and for enmity to develop between them.
So the characters in the prophesy are for the most part, symbolic, not literal.
1 John 3:10-12…
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

It is the characteristics of both in their behavior that identifies these ”children”.

The true “mother” from whom Jesus came is God’s symbolic “wife”…..his heavenly family of spirit beings. (Gal 4:21-31)
Jesus came from heaven originally, so that he could be given “birth” as a human to offer his life for the one Adam lost for us.

The seed of the woman (Eve) is Jesus.. Jesus literally was born from Eve through a bloodline.
Satan has a seed literal children from his union with Eve. You cannot disprove this, you simply don’t want to believe it because it tears down your understanding of scripture. Be that as it may. Peace to you.

You see, this is the scary part of your belief to me, because what you are suggesting invalidates everything Jesus taught….it isn’t tearing down my beliefs, but is insulting the very reason why Jesus came. You are suggesting that the human race is the spawn of the devil! If that was the case, then these “humans”, like the Nephilim (spawned by the demons) had no right to live, and God would have wiped them all out, but not including the supposedly first humans who were sinless, not being Adam’s offspring….as I said…it’s a rabbit hole that I will not go down with you any further. The scenario has no valid foundation except in interpretation and suggestion….my faith requires more than that.

Why would God record himself creating the first humans and say nothing about them…..only to record a second creation and make the Bible all about them and their sinful actions, requiring his rescue mission for their children? What about those people who supposedly existed before them, outside the garden, and whose story is missing? They were apparently sinless, since God’s creation is without defect and humankind were created to live forever on earth in their mortal flesh. Where was “the tree of life” for them? It was the only source of everlasting life mentioned to Adam….were the “other” people prevented from eating of this tree’s fruit if they were sinless? If so, why….since they were apparently around for 1656 years before Adam’s creation?

Your favored scenario makes absolutely no sense. If all the wicked died in the flood, what happened to the “others”? Does the invention of these “other” humans stem from the question as to where Cain got his wife?

 

[Truthnightmare]

There is no way that you can “prove” it unless there is a direct statement confirming what you believe. We could argue all day and it wouldn’t alter a thing. Like the triune godhead, there are scriptures that might suggest it if you twist them enough, but since there is no direct statement confirming it, it too is based on supposition and interpretation…..these are not facts. Your assumptions about who God created and when are therefore not provable….but you will hold to them anyway because you want to.

My beliefs are in full agreement with the Bible, and the reason why the human race needs redemption as descendants of Adam….not just Noah. God did not wipe sin out of the world with the flood…he merely reset the path that the human race was treading, under influence from satan and his demons….cleansing it and starting again with a faithful, and more importantly, an obedient man who followed God’s direction to the letter. But sin being a powerful influence for the evil they introduced into the human race, it wasn’t long before rebellion reared it’s ugly head again….with Nimrod.

The meaning of this first recorded Bible prophesy remained a mystery for centuries until it was God’s time to reveal who the players were.
This prophesy revealed that there would be a deliverer who would destroy the one really represented by the serpent, namely, the great serpent and enemy of God, Satan the Devil. (Rev 12:9)
It also indicated that the Devil would have a “seed.” It would require time for the two seeds to be brought forth and for enmity to develop between them.
So the characters in the prophesy are for the most part, symbolic, not literal.
1 John 3:10-12…
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

It is the characteristics of both in their behavior that identifies these ”children”.

The true “mother” from whom Jesus came is God’s symbolic “wife”…..his heavenly family of spirit beings. (Gal 4:21-31)
Jesus came from heaven originally, so that he could be given “birth” as a human to offer his life for the one Adam lost for us.

You see, this is the scary part of your belief to me, because what you are suggesting invalidates everything Jesus taught….it isn’t tearing down my beliefs, but is insulting the very reason why Jesus came. You are suggesting that the human race is the spawn of the devil! If that was the case, then these “humans”, like the Nephilim (spawned by the demons) had no right to live, and God would have wiped them all out, but not including the supposedly first humans who were sinless, not being Adam’s offspring….as I said…it’s a rabbit hole that I will not go down with you any further. The scenario has no valid foundation except in interpretation and suggestion….my faith requires more than that.

Why would God record himself creating the first humans and say nothing about them…..only to record a second creation and make the Bible all about them and their sinful actions, requiring his rescue mission for their children? What about those people who supposedly existed before them, outside the garden, and whose story is missing? They were apparently sinless, since God’s creation is without defect and humankind were created to live forever on earth in their mortal flesh. Where was “the tree of life” for them? It was the only source of everlasting life mentioned to Adam….were the “other” people prevented from eating of this tree’s fruit if they were sinless? If so, why….since they were apparently around for 1656 years before Adam’s creation?

Your favored scenario makes absolutely no sense. If all the wicked died in the flood, what happened to the “others”? Does the invention of these “other” humans stem from the question as to where Cain got his wife?

The Bible is not about all the other races that existed… It’s about the family that would lead to the messiah..

Let me ask you.. Who was made first, Eve, or animals?

 

[Mr E]

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes*1, and a tree to be desired*2 to make one wise*3, she took*4 of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



Is it not in the realm of possibility that sexual matters took place?

There's no doubt that it relates to sexual matters. But the account is speaking first of the spiritual woman-- Eve and the spiritual man-- Adam while they were both 'in spirit' -- divine beings, in the heavenly garden-- a paradise-- with God. That is their beginning and that is the estate from which they "fell" and were sent away from due to this disobedient act of eating from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The trees as you point out are not trees at all-- but as seen from the spiritual perspective- they are physical people. Remember that in the beginning it isn't "God the Father" that is creating these physical things.... it's the elohim who are making physical representations of spiritual things-- they are in a sense replicating physical copies of heavenly things up to and including copies of themselves. "Let us make man in our image" they say.... little physical likenesses, litte "I dolls" that they animate and 'play with' like all children do.

So this tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a physical archetype of the spiritual woman--- the mother of all she is called, and the fruit of her tree and this carnal knowledge is humanity. Of course it's sexual-- but from the spiritual perspective and the spiritual woman above-- to eat of this tree can be a trap, just as sexuality can be a trap for anyone, and so it was for her.... the love of the flesh below is spiritual idolatry. Loving the created image and those desires at the expense of the Father. And so there was a consequence.

 

[Mr E]

A lot of questions, I will address the first and move on accordingly..


The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is Satan. So the question becomes why was Satan there.
He (Satan) was there to disrupt the plan of God.

I'll propose a different explanation.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the woman--- the physical reflection/image of the woman animated by the spirit/elohim.

And Satan was there because Satan too--- was/is an elohim himself. A spiritual being that similarly inhabits/animates physical people below and so the temptor that came was of course-- was this spiritual man above who convinced the woman that the fruit of that tree was going to be eye-opening. The physical representation of this act, was a physical man below who seduced the physical woman below into the sexual act-- a violation of God's intent for one man and one woman, male and female to be united and naked without shame, together forever.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, the Bible often uses trees to symbolize men or beings.

Mark 8:24
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

God is referenced as a tree.

Hosea 14:8
have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree.

Satan is a box cypress tree… Analogy of Satan..

Ezekiel 31
Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

As seen above-- the physical things below are just material things-

The trees are always men. Never spiritual beings, but represented as essentially building materials.... the things you make houses or containers of/from.... Wood. Stone. Mud. Cloth. Jars. Dwelling places- Tents. Houses. Temples.

The animals are always spiritual attributes that animate the people. The spirit of a lion, a lamb, a dove, a donkey, a horse and so on..... these describe the spiritual nature in all it's kinds and none of these was a perfect match for the spiritual man-- because at times he could be animated by each and all of these.... so a new mate was formed out of him-- to be like him, but different. Same, but different.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Bible is not about all the other races that existed… It’s about the family that would lead to the messiah..

What other races that existed? You have not proven that there were any “other races”.

If that is what you believe, then you miss the whole point of the scenario in Eden......let me ask you….why was there a need for a Messiah in the first place?
Would Messiah have been sent if Adam and his wife had not disobeyed? Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been tempted by the serpent, whom we know was satan the devil? Where were these “other” people?

As free willed beings, the human’s choices led to God’s response. Jehovah acted only once....creation was his only independent action......all that transpired after that was a REaction to the choices made by his intelligent creation, both human and angelic.

Let me ask you.. Who was made first, Eve, or animals?

In reading the first three chapters of Genesis , we see how it all began.
Chapter 2 begins where chapter 1 leaves off…..but it is a more general account adding details that are missing in ch 1.
Gen 2:1-3
”Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

Verse 4 says…
”This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.”
This is clearly the beginning of creation.

It goes on to relate details about how the earth sustained its vegetation…the water needed for plants and other living creatures to live, was provided by a canopy of water above the atmosphere held in place “by the word of God”.….(2 Peter3:5-6) That canopy of water was used to flood the earth in Noah’s day. God provided the means before they were needed by plants, animals or man.

“No bush of the field was yet on the earth and no vegetation of the field had begun sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain on the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist would go up from the earth, and it watered the entire surface of the ground.” (See Gen 1:6-7)

Now it goes on to relate details of God’s human creation….remember that this is being related to someone who was not yet in existence to observe how or in what order things were created. Moses wrote as God’s spirit directed him to record the creation account. Would God have told Moses to write something contradictory? Or is it that humans are trying to find something contradictory in his words?

“And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

This is the beginning of the human race….there are no “other” humans in existence because the whole of mankind inherited sin from Adam. If other humans existed before him, then these would be sinless, allowing them to live forever…..”the wages of sin is death” and all humans die because of Adam’s sin. (Rom 5:12)

Your attempts to prove that other humans existed before Adam and Eve make no sense whatsoever.

Your question is answered in Genesis ch 1, which is a general description of creation and the order in which it took place…..so humans were created last. Animals were created on the same “day”.

In Genesis the “days” were not 24 hour days, because the word “day” in Hebrew has a much broader meaning. These “days” could have been thousands or even million of years long. The Creator is not constrained by earth time…he is a timeless Being with no limitations. Science proves that the earth is ancient and that many creatures were extinct long before humans arrived. Giving Genesis the time needed to create all that God made, tells us why he gave himself a period of rest from his labors. The 7th day was his opportunity to evaluate his creation and to see what would transpire as a result of giving his intelligent creatures free will. He did not rest from his interest in what he created, but from creation itself.

Jehovah had a purpose in his creation, but needed time to test things out. Free will was not absolute, it was constrained by the limits placed by God’s law. Yet God never forces his intelligent children to obey him. To transgress and abuse that precious gift, brought the whole human race undone, and introduced a rebel spirit into mankind’s history. The Bible is the story of how the Creator solves the problem of dealing with all who want to disobey him, whist still preserving the gift. It is part of being “made in God’s image”.

Abusing free will has repercussions as we have seen in human history. God has allowed us to see where such abuse has taken us…..have we learned the lesson?

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Mr E…..that is the most convoluted story I have ever heard…..with not a single scriptural foundation to support any of it. Did you think this up by yourself, or is it something you have learned from others?

Who or what on earth would lead you to such ridiculous conclusions?

 

[Truthnightmare]

What other races that existed? You have not proven that there were any “other races”.

If that is what you believe, then you miss the whole point of the scenario in Eden......let me ask you….why was there a need for a Messiah in the first place?
Would Messiah have been sent if Adam and his wife had not disobeyed? Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been tempted by the serpent, whom we know was satan the devil? Where were these “other” people?

As free willed beings, the human’s choices led to God’s response. Jehovah acted only once....creation was his only independent action......all that transpired after that was a REaction to the choices made by his intelligent creation, both human and angelic.

In reading the first three chapters of Genesis , we see how it all began.
Chapter 2 begins where chapter 1 leaves off…..but it is a more general account adding details that are missing in ch 1.
Gen 2:1-3
”Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

Verse 4 says…
”This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.”
This is clearly the beginning of creation.

It goes on to relate details about how the earth sustained its vegetation…the water needed for plants and other living creatures to live, was provided by a canopy of water above the atmosphere held in place “by the word of God”.….(2 Peter3:5-6) That canopy of water was used to flood the earth in Noah’s day. God provided the means before they were needed by plants, animals or man.

“No bush of the field was yet on the earth and no vegetation of the field had begun sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain on the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist would go up from the earth, and it watered the entire surface of the ground.” (See Gen 1:6-7)

Now it goes on to relate details of God’s human creation….remember that this is being related to someone who was not yet in existence to observe how or in what order things were created. Moses wrote as God’s spirit directed him to record the creation account. Would God have told Moses to write something contradictory? Or is it that humans are trying to find something contradictory in his words?

“And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

This is the beginning of the human race….there are no “other” humans in existence because the whole of mankind inherited sin from Adam. If other humans existed before him, then these would be sinless, allowing them to live forever…..”the wages of sin is death” and all humans die because of Adam’s sin. (Rom 5:12)

Your attempts to prove that other humans existed before Adam and Eve make no sense whatsoever.

Your question is answered in Genesis ch 1, which is a general description of creation and the order in which it took place…..so humans were created last. Animals were created on the same “day”.

?

Why must we make the discussion difficult? My questions to you are simple.

In Genesis 1 God created אָדָ֛ם
In Genesis 2 God formed הָֽאָדָ֗ם

Do you see a difference in the words “created” and “formed”

CREATED: Hebrew word # 1254; bara' - to shape, to fashion, to create (always with God as subject) used of individual man,used of new conditions and circumstances, to be created, used of birth, used of something new.

FORMED: Hebrew word # 3335; yatsar - to form, to fashion, to frame, used of human activity, used of divine activity, used of Israel as a people, to frame, to pre-ordain, to plan (figurative of divine) to purpose of a situation, to be predetermined, to be pre-ordained, to be formed.

Do you not see a difference in..

The different forms of the Hebrew word 'adaam
(Note: The Hebrew characters are reversed
from our English, and read right to left)

'adam is man, any man, men, mankind.

haa-'adam with the Article is the man.

'eth haa-'adam with the Article & Particle is this particular man Adam.​

It seems you don’t have a clear understanding of how the word “man” is rendered in the Hebrew.

There are four principal Hebrew words rendered "man", and these must be carefully discriminated. Every occurrence is noted in the margin of The Companion Bible. They represent him from four different points of view :--

1. 'Adam, denotes his origin, as being made from the "dust of the Adamah" ground (Lat. homo).
2. 'Ish, has regard to sex, a male (Lat. vir).
3. 'Enosh, has regard to his infirmities, as physically mortal, and as to character, incurable.
4. 'Geber, has respect to his strength, a mighty man.

1. 'Adam, without the article, denotes man or mankind in general (Gen. 1:26; 2:5; 5:1, followed by plural pronoun). With the article, it denotes the man, Adam, though rendered "man" in Gen. 1:27; 2:7 (twice), 8, 15, 16, 19 (marg.), 22 (twice); 3:12, 22, 24; 5:1; 6:1 (rendered "men"), 2, 3, 4. After this, the Hebrew 'Adam = man or men, is used of the descendants of Adam. Hence, Christ is called "the son of Adam", not a son of Enosh.
   With the particle ha ('eth) in addition to the article it is very emphatic, and means self, very, this same, this very. See Gen. 2:7 (first occurrence), 8, 15.
   Rendered in the Septuagint (anthropos) 411 times; (aner) eighteen times (fifteen times in Proverbs); (brotos), mortal (all in Job); once (gegenes), earth-born, Jer. 32:20.
   
   
   
2. 'Ish. First occurrence in feminine, Gen. 2:23, 'ishah = woman. Therefore, 'ish = male, or husband; a man, in contrast with a woman. A great man in contrast with ordinary men (Ps. 49:2, where "low" are called the children of Adam, and the "high" = children of 'ish. So Ps. 62:9 and Isa. 2:9; 5:15; 31:8). When God is spoken of as man, it is 'ish (Ex. 15:3. So Josh. 5:13. Dan. 9:21; 10:5; 12:6, 7. Zech. 1:8, &c.). Also, in such expressions as "man of God", "man of understanding", &c. In the early chapters of Genesis we have it in chapters 3:33, 34 and 4:1.
   Translated in Septuagint 1,083 times by (aner), Latin vir, and only 450 by (anthropos), Latin homo.
   It is rendered "husband" sixty-nine times, "person" twelve times, and once or twice each in thirty-nine different ways.
   
   
   
3. 'Enosh. First occurrence Gen. 6:4, men of name. Always in a bad sense (Isa. 5:22; 45:14. Judg. 18:25). Morally = depraved, and physically = frail, weak. It is from 'anash, to be sick, wretched, weak, and denotes inability, for strength, physically; and for good, morally (cp. 2Sam. 12:15. Job 34:6. Jer. 15:18; 17:9; 30:12, 15. Mic. 1:9). Note the contrasts, Isa. 2:11 and 17, "The lofty looks of man ('Adam) shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men ('Enosh) shall be bowed down" (Cp. Isa. 13:12. Job 25:6. Ps. 8:4; 90:3; 144:3. Job 4:17; 10:5; 7:17. Dan. 4:16). Other instructive passages are Isa. 8:1; 66:24. Ezek. 24:17 (afflicted, or mourners. Cp. Jer. 17:16, "day of man"). In 1Sam. 4:9 it is probably plural of'Ish (so probably Gen. 18 and 19, where the indefinite plural must be interpreted by the context, because 'Adam would have denotedhuman, and 'Ish, males).
   It is rendered "man" 518 times, "certain" eleven times, and once or twice each in twenty-four other and different ways.
   
   
   
4. Geber. First occurrence in Gen. 6:4 (*1), mighty men, and denotes man in respect of his physical strength, as 'Enosh does in respect of the depravity of his nature. It is rendered "man" sixty-seven times, "mighty" twice, "man-child" once, "every one" once. In the Septuagint rendered fourteen times (anthropos) and the rest by (aner).
   For illustrative passages see Ex. 10:11; 12:37. 1Sam. 16:18. 2Sam. 23:1. Num. 24:3, 15. 1Chron. 26:12; 28:1. 2Chron. 13:3. Ezra 4:21; 5:4, 10; 6:8.
   
   
   
5. Methim (plural) = adults as distinguished from children, and males as distinguished from females. Occurs Gen. 34:30. Deut. 2:34; 3:6; 4:27; 26:5; 28:62; 33:6. 1Chron. 16:19. Job 11:3, 11; 19:19; 22:15; 24:12; 31:31. Ps. 17:14; 26:4; 105:12. Isa. 3:25; 5:13; 41:14. Jer. 44:28.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why must we make the discussion difficult? My questions to you are simple.

In Genesis 1 God created אָדָ֛ם
In Genesis 2 God formed הָֽאָדָ֗ם

Do you see a difference in the words “created” and “formed”

CREATED: Hebrew word # 1254; bara' - to shape, to fashion, to create (always with God as subject) used of individual man,used of new conditions and circumstances, to be created, used of birth, used of something new.

FORMED: Hebrew word # 3335; yatsar - to form, to fashion, to frame, used of human activity, used of divine activity, used of Israel as a people, to frame, to pre-ordain, to plan (figurative of divine) to purpose of a situation, to be predetermined, to be pre-ordained, to be formed.

Do you not see a difference in..

The different forms of the Hebrew word 'adaam
(Note: The Hebrew characters are reversed
from our English, and read right to left)



It seems you don’t have a clear understanding of how the word “man” is rendered in the Hebrew.

There are four principal Hebrew words rendered "man", and these must be carefully discriminated. Every occurrence is noted in the margin of The Companion Bible. They represent him from four different points of view :--

1. 'Adam, denotes his origin, as being made from the "dust of the Adamah" ground (Lat. homo).
2. 'Ish, has regard to sex, a male (Lat. vir).
3. 'Enosh, has regard to his infirmities, as physically mortal, and as to character, incurable.
4. 'Geber, has respect to his strength, a mighty man.

1. 'Adam, without the article, denotes man or mankind in general (Gen. 1:26; 2:5; 5:1, followed by plural pronoun). With the article, it denotes the man, Adam, though rendered "man" in Gen. 1:27; 2:7 (twice), 8, 15, 16, 19 (marg.), 22 (twice); 3:12, 22, 24; 5:1; 6:1 (rendered "men"), 2, 3, 4. After this, the Hebrew 'Adam = man or men, is used of the descendants of Adam. Hence, Christ is called "the son of Adam", not a son of Enosh.
   With the particle ha ('eth) in addition to the article it is very emphatic, and means self, very, this same, this very. See Gen. 2:7 (first occurrence), 8, 15.
   Rendered in the Septuagint (anthropos) 411 times; (aner) eighteen times (fifteen times in Proverbs); (brotos), mortal (all in Job); once (gegenes), earth-born, Jer. 32:20.
   
   
   
2. 'Ish. First occurrence in feminine, Gen. 2:23, 'ishah = woman. Therefore, 'ish = male, or husband; a man, in contrast with a woman. A great man in contrast with ordinary men (Ps. 49:2, where "low" are called the children of Adam, and the "high" = children of 'ish. So Ps. 62:9 and Isa. 2:9; 5:15; 31:8). When God is spoken of as man, it is 'ish (Ex. 15:3. So Josh. 5:13. Dan. 9:21; 10:5; 12:6, 7. Zech. 1:8, &c.). Also, in such expressions as "man of God", "man of understanding", &c. In the early chapters of Genesis we have it in chapters 3:33, 34 and 4:1.
   Translated in Septuagint 1,083 times by (aner), Latin vir, and only 450 by (anthropos), Latin homo.
   It is rendered "husband" sixty-nine times, "person" twelve times, and once or twice each in thirty-nine different ways.
   
   
   
3. 'Enosh. First occurrence Gen. 6:4, men of name. Always in a bad sense (Isa. 5:22; 45:14. Judg. 18:25). Morally = depraved, and physically = frail, weak. It is from 'anash, to be sick, wretched, weak, and denotes inability, for strength, physically; and for good, morally (cp. 2Sam. 12:15. Job 34:6. Jer. 15:18; 17:9; 30:12, 15. Mic. 1:9). Note the contrasts, Isa. 2:11 and 17, "The lofty looks of man ('Adam) shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men ('Enosh) shall be bowed down" (Cp. Isa. 13:12. Job 25:6. Ps. 8:4; 90:3; 144:3. Job 4:17; 10:5; 7:17. Dan. 4:16). Other instructive passages are Isa. 8:1; 66:24. Ezek. 24:17 (afflicted, or mourners. Cp. Jer. 17:16, "day of man"). In 1Sam. 4:9 it is probably plural of'Ish (so probably Gen. 18 and 19, where the indefinite plural must be interpreted by the context, because 'Adam would have denotedhuman, and 'Ish, males).
   It is rendered "man" 518 times, "certain" eleven times, and once or twice each in twenty-four other and different ways.
   
   
   
4. Geber. First occurrence in Gen. 6:4 (*1), mighty men, and denotes man in respect of his physical strength, as 'Enosh does in respect of the depravity of his nature. It is rendered "man" sixty-seven times, "mighty" twice, "man-child" once, "every one" once. In the Septuagint rendered fourteen times (anthropos) and the rest by (aner).
   For illustrative passages see Ex. 10:11; 12:37. 1Sam. 16:18. 2Sam. 23:1. Num. 24:3, 15. 1Chron. 26:12; 28:1. 2Chron. 13:3. Ezra 4:21; 5:4, 10; 6:8.
   
   
   
5. Methim (plural) = adults as distinguished from children, and males as distinguished from females. Occurs Gen. 34:30. Deut. 2:34; 3:6; 4:27; 26:5; 28:62; 33:6. 1Chron. 16:19. Job 11:3, 11; 19:19; 22:15; 24:12; 31:31. Ps. 17:14; 26:4; 105:12. Isa. 3:25; 5:13; 41:14. Jer. 44:28.

I made it simple…you made it complicated….whoever has persuaded you to believe that convoluted nonsense is trying to blur the clear lines of scripture…..reading into words, meanings that are misapplied.
If you do not understand the meaning of the Edenic scenario and how it relates to God’s creation then whoever holds your views has lost the plot completely.…right from the start.

If there were “other humans” in existence before Adam, then nothing in your version makes any sense.