The Garden

[Mr E]

@Mr E…..that is the most convoluted story I have ever heard…..with not a single scriptural foundation to support any of it. Did you think this up by yourself, or is it something you have learned from others?

Who or what on earth would lead you to such ridiculous conclusions?

Well sweet cheeks. Remember you heard it from me first.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I made it simple…you made it complicated….whoever has persuaded you to believe that convoluted nonsense is trying to blur the clear lines of scripture…..reading into words, meanings that are misapplied.
If you do not understand the meaning of the Edenic scenario and how it relates to God’s creation then whoever holds your views has lost the plot completely.…right from the start.

If there were “other humans” in existence before Adam, then nothing in your version makes any sense.

You won’t answer my questions… Why are you concerned with someone persuading me..

Just answer the questions… or don’t, totally up to you.

I’m not trying to trick you, or use the Hebrew as a pat on my back for what you may not know.

If you are not familiar with Hebrew article and particle, that’s fine. Lord knows I’m a simpleton.

However, I fully understand your posistion, but you don’t seem willing to entertain mine.

That being said, do you know what I believe, do you want to know I guess is the question.

 

[Waiting on him]

My beliefs are in full agreement with the Bible, and the reason why the human race needs redemption as descendants of Adam….not just Noah. God did not wipe sin out of the world with the flood…he merely reset the path that the human race was treading, under influence from satan and his demons….cleansing it and starting again with a faithful, and more importantly, an obedient man who followed God’s direction to the letter. But sin being a powerful influence for the evil they introduced into the human race, it wasn’t long before rebellion reared it’s ugly head again….with Nimrod.

I’m surprised to hear that the JWs have the opinion that God would drown the entire world.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well sweet cheeks. Remember you heard it from me first.

I don’t have to….perhaps God will though….you may remember what you heard from me…won’t it be interesting….?

 

[Waiting on him]

I made it simple…you made it complicated….whoever has persuaded you to believe that convoluted nonsense is trying to blur the clear lines of scripture…..reading into words, meanings that are misapplied.
If you do not understand the meaning of the Edenic scenario and how it relates to God’s creation then whoever holds your views has lost the plot completely.…right from the start.

If there were “other humans” in existence before Adam, then nothing in your version makes any sense.

Moses seems to have some very detailed facts about something that occurred 1800 years befor his existence.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’m surprised to hear that the JWs have the opinion that God would drown the entire world.

He didn’t drown the entire world…he actually instructed Noah on how to save his whole family.
And because the demons had interfered so much with the condition of the human race at that time, they had descended into a level of evil that was contrary to his purpose. So as the giver of life, he can also judge them and execute offenders who violate his laws. He gave them due warning via Noah’s words and activity…..but instead of heeding what Noah told them, they ignored and ridiculed him…..I wonder what they were thinking when the water started rising and there was nowhere to run to for safety?

Why would you be surprised that God can and does remove offenders from existence? There is no hell of eternal torment because God does not need to torture anyone….he just removes them, and that’s that.…like they never existed. Not complicated is it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Moses seems to have some very detailed facts about something that occurred 1800 years befor his existence.

He did, because “all scripture is inspired of God”….God was there, and told Moses what to record….again very simple. Moses wrote a first hand account of something that happened centuries before he existed.

 

[Waiting on him]

He did, because “all scripture is inspired of God”….God was there, and told Moses what to record….again very simple. Moses wrote a first hand account of something that happened centuries before he existed.

What if it’s the other way around and Moses wrote a first hand account of something that happened centuries after he existed?

 

[Waiting on him]

He didn’t drown the entire world…he actually instructed Noah on how to save his whole family.
And because the demons had interfered so much with the condition of the human race at that time, they had descended into a level of evil that was contrary to his purpose. So as the giver of life, he can also judge them and execute offenders who violate his laws. He gave then due warning via Noah’s words and activity…..but instead of heeding what Noah told them, they ignored and ridiculed him…..I wonder what they were thinking when the water started rising and there was nowhere to run to for safety?
Why would you be surprised that God can and does remove offenders form existence? There is no hell of eternal torment because Gods does not need to torture anyone….he just removes them, and that’s that.…like they never existed. Not complicated is it?

It isn’t complicated, until we are given an account of the Christ, which is the image of the invisible God. All he bestowed was love mercy and grace.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You won’t answer my questions…

I did answer you question in a very detailed way…..did you read what I wrote?

Why are you concerned with someone persuading me..

Because we are all persuaded by someone…..there are only two persuaders in the world vying for our worship…..you know who they are, and that one of them is a pathological liar.

However, I fully understand your posistion, but you don’t seem willing to entertain mine.

“Entertain” is an interesting word…..could I be ‘entertained’ by things that are completely illogical to me as a student of God’s word for over 50 years? My studies have been thorough because I am one who is not easily convinced about anything. Those who want to present scripture that I have studied for years, yet present a completely unscriptural and fanciful interpretation, reading into scripture what is clearly not there in any stated form, will have to do better than ignore my own questions to you.

You seem so intent on presenting what you believe or have been persuaded to believe, that you you cannot handle the simple truth when it is presented to you.

That being said, do you know what I believe, do you want to know I guess is the question.

I’m not sure I want to know because, what can you offer me as an alternative? The truth has no alternatives….it has no versions….it is what it is, and no one can change it.

At this juncture, there are only “sheep and goats” in the world, and soon Christ will make a clear distinction between the two…..which side we will be found on is for us to experience, since Gods will not correct us if we are wrong. As free willed beings, our decisions made in this time period will determine our eternal destiny.

Make sure that what you believe is backed up by the scriptures without the convoluted definitions. The truth has to be simple enough for a child to understand it. If it is too complicated, then God is discriminating against those who are not well versed in the scriptures, or well educated in the general sense.

Man is his own worst enemy….the devil knows how to manipulate the human psyche like no other.…and he has thousands of years of experience. All I can say is be careful who you listen to, because many will seek to get into the kingdom but will not be accepted. (Luke 12:23-24)

 

[Waiting on him]

I did answer you question in a very detailed way…..did you read what I wrote?

Because we are all persuaded by someone…..there are only two persuaders in the world vying for our worship…..you know who they are, and that one of them is a pathological liar.

“Entertain” is an interesting word…..could I be ‘entertained’ by things that are completely illogical to me as a student of God’s word for over 50 years? My studies have been thorough because I am one who is not easily convinced about anything. Those who want to present scripture that I have studied for years, yet present a completely unscriptural and fanciful interpretation, reading into scripture what is clearly not there in any stated form, will have to do better than ignore my own questions to you.

You seem so intent on presenting what you believe or have been persuaded to believe, that you you cannot handle the simple truth when it is presented to you.

I’m not sure I want to know because, what can you offer me as an alternative? The truth has no alternatives….it has no versions….it is what it is, and no one can change it.

At this juncture, there are only “sheep and goats” in the world, and soon Christ will make a clear distinction between the two…..which side we will be found on is for us to experience, since Gods will not correct us if we are wrong. As free willed beings, our decisions made in this time period will determine our eternal destiny.

Make sure that what you believe is backed up by the scriptures without the convoluted definitions. The truth has to be simple enough for a child to understand it. If it is too complicated, then God is discriminating against those who are not well versed in the scriptures, or well educated in the general sense.

Man is his own worst enemy….the devil knows how to manipulate the human psyche like no other.…and he has thousands of years of experience. All I can say is be careful who you listen to, because many will seek to get into the kingdom but will not be accepted. (Luke 12:23-24)

I don’t for one second believe that anyone will enter the kingdom base on which organization they choose to tell them what they believe. Assuming that a group of men have a more superior narrative than another group is a very sketchy thing to hang one’s eternal security on.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What if it’s the other way around and Moses wrote a first hand account of something that happened centuries after he existed?

If that is the case then the scriptures are a trap, baited by the devil, rather than God’s word.
How can you even entertain such an illogical belief?
We make the choice to believe or not…..that choice is also yours…I have made my decision. If you have made yours, what more needs to be said?

It isn’t complicated, until we are given an account of the Christ, which is the image of the invisible God. All he bestowed was love mercy and grace.

Which occurred at a completely different time, under different circumstances, and under an old covenant, different from the one that replaced it.

As the “Prince of Peace”, Jesus came to demonstrate the personal qualities of his God and Father. His love, justice, wisdom and power….
His reign will reflect the qualities that he himself displayed as he was the image of his God, who reflected his Father’s personality perfectly.

Israel, in their time, was more intent on defending their God-given land from their enemies. Each of those nations came in the name of their false gods, so in order for those nations to understand who Jehovah was, and the power that he had at his disposal, it was an important period in establishing his superiority.

Fast forward hundreds of years with no prophets to correct them, (they were incorrigible so it was pointless) God sent his son into that wayward nation, and in spite of their corrupt teachings and traditions, he gathered “the lost sheep” and gave them a hope and a future.
After the Jews had executed their own Messiah, God turned to the nations and invited them into his kingdom arrangement. He called them “a people for his name”. (Acts 15:14)

Who is it that comes with his angelic forces to destroy all opposers to his incoming Kingdom? It is the very same Jesus Christ, in his role as judge and executioner…..Jesus is not some wimpy, all forgiving sop….he is a mighty warrior King who will destroy all of God’s enemies.
I can see how that might be a confronting thought to those who believe as you do. (Matt 25:41-46)

I don’t for one second believe that anyone will enter the kingdom base on which organization they choose to tell them what they believe. Assuming that a group of men have a more superior narrative than another group is a very sketchy thing to hang one’s eternal security on.

You are free to believe whatever you wish…..those who are called out of Christendom have to have somewhere to go, and God has always had his people…..organized to worship him acceptably. He also provided teachers who were to take the lead among them…and we are told to obey them. (Heb 13:13, 17)

In the first century there was just one “Christianity” so the choice was clear…but today when the devil has spawned so many ‘counterfeits’, people are confused as to who has the true teachings of Christ.
How were we to identify them? By their “fruits”, Jesus said……not what they said, but what they did to demonstrate that they were genuine disciples of their Master.

What were the traits that would clearly identify those genuine disciples?
1) Unity. (1 Cor 1:10) No divisions, all teaching one truth.

2) Love among themselves (John 13:35-35) No political involvement that would pit one Christian against another in times of political war. (1 John 4:19-20) There can be no differences of opinion causing divisions and friction.

3) We are to be “no part of the world”….not involved in it’s politics or its conflicts. (John 17:16; John 18:36)

4) No bloodguilt. (Isaiah 1:15; Romans 12:17-21) No Christian can have blood on their hands.

5) Active in the work Jesus assigned to all his disciples. (John 10:11-14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

6) Removing ourselves from “Babylon the great” (Rev 18:4-5) Original Babylon was where all false religion originated. So you will not find genuine Christians to be part of the counterfeit “Christianity“ sown by the devil and saturated with false teachings. Why do you think there are so many bickering churches?

Find the ones who are carrying out all of that, and you will have found the “sheep”, who will be the only survivors of the coming “war of the great day of God the Almighty”.

It’s our choice to make…..and time is running out.

 

[Waiting on him]

If that is the case then the scriptures are a trap, baited by the devil, rather than God’s word.
How can you even entertain such an illogical belief?
We make the choice to believe or not…..that choice is also yours…I have made my decision. If you have made yours, what more needs to be said?

Is it such a stretch to see that the Genesis account is speaking of a man created in Gods image?
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
— Colossians 1:15

Jesus was born in the first century. I would respond to the rest of your post if it were not a convoluted bunch of nonsense.

 

[Mr E]

Is it such a stretch to see that the Genesis account is speaking of a man created in Gods image?
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
— Colossians 1:15

Jesus was born in the first century. I would respond to the rest of your post if it were not a convoluted bunch of nonsense.

But wait-- there's more.

God is spirit. His offspring are spirit. Heavenly beings, divine.... elohim. And those elohim made man in their image.

And everything went downhill.

But God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten son to save the world.... And that son became flesh.... manifest or incarnated in human form when the Father breathed His life into adam-- into man, and he became a living being, born from above.

That first man, made in the image of the divine, without human father-- he became the physical Adam, but as seen from above-- that man was the tree of life. There are the two trees in the center of the garden-- Adam, the tree of life and his wife Eve-- the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And Adam-- the son of God was made Lord of all the earth having dominion over every living thing. From his seed, we have all descended.



If you want to catch a glimpse of the reality above, look at the image below. Everything above has a likeness below.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is it such a stretch to see that the Genesis account is speaking of a man created in Gods image?
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
— Colossians 1:15

It’s not about it being a “stretch” or not.....it’s about our beliefs being scriptural....solidly based on God’s word. I cannot find any evidence for your beliefs in scripture. I am thinking that you don’t need any and that is your prerogative.

Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature”.......but does that somehow make him Adam? Where is that written?
If he is the firstborn of EVERY creature, then that includes the spirit creatures who inhabit the same realm as God does. His angels are also called “sons of God”.
Where do you put them in your creation timeline? They were in existence before the creation of the Universe....

Jesus was born in the first century. I would respond to the rest of your post if it were not a convoluted bunch of nonsense.

Jesus the human was born around the beginning of the first century.....but as he said...he “came down from heaven” (John 6:38) where he was “with” the Father “in the beginning” as the “only begotten son” of God.

What does “only begotten” mean. (monogenes)? It means an “only child”, yet Jesus has many spirit ‘brothers’ in heaven, but none were created by the Father......the son was used as the agency “through” whom all creation came......including the angels. (Col 1:15-17)

“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2-3)

It is apparent that you do no personal study of the scriptures yourself, but parrot off what someone has told you......since it has no scriptural backing whatsoever, I cannot understand why you accept what the Bible does not say....who told you it was the truth?
Mr Ed is a horse.....is he the horse’s mouth?

Sorry, there is no way that the Bible backs up what you are saying.

 

[Waiting on him]

If he is the firstborn of EVERY creature, then that includes the spirit creatures who inhabit the same realm as God does. His angels are also called “sons of God”.
Where do you put them in your creation timeline? They were in existence before the creation of the Universe....

The sons of God were not manifest until the gifting of the spirit of God. This began with Jesus, and continued post Pentecost.

The epistles state they were the children of God/ born of God. Genesis is an allegorical story given of God to Moses it is referring to the Christ.

I understand that it is virtually impossible for you too understand that God in his infinite wisdom showed Moses what would happen in the first century.

 

[Waiting on him]

“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2-3)

It is apparent that you do no personal study of the scriptures yourself, but parrot off what someone has told you......since it has no scriptural backing whatsoever, I cannot understand why you accept what the Bible does not say....who told you it was the truth?
Mr Ed is a horse.....is he the horse’s mouth?

Sorry, there is no way that the Bible backs up what you are saying.

I heard a song by an artist years ago that reminds me of the voice I hear in your posts. This artist to my understanding was heavily indoctrinated in Mormonism in his adolescence.

Have a listen?

 

[Waiting on him]

Mr Ed is a horse.....is he the horse’s mouth?

I’m rather fond of @Mr E s post, he has a very unique perspective. The thing I like most about his perspective is that he doesn’t vilify God.

 

[Waiting on him]

“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2-3)

Precisely, Gods creation began with Jesus in the first century, this is why Paul stated a new creature. They looked for new heavens and a new earth. Your looking for the literal I’m looking for those that are spiritual.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The sons of God were not manifest until the gifting of the spirit of God. This began with Jesus, and continued post Pentecost.

The epistles state they were the children of God/ born of God. Genesis is an allegorical story given of God to Moses it is referring to the Christ.

I understand that it is virtually impossible for you too understand that God in his infinite wisdom showed Moses what would happen in the first century.

This is your belief, not supported by scripture unless it is twisted beyond all recognition.....but you are welcome to it.....not an ounce of truth in it.

The angels are described in the book of Job as applauding creation.....that happened when God brought the universe into existence, not just Jesus....he was born as a human about 2000 years after Adam....and here we are another 2000 years later, and he is about to return...are you ready?

I heard a song by an artist years ago that reminds me of the voice I hear in your posts. This artist to my understanding was heavily indoctrinated in Mormonism in his adolescence.

I am not a Mormon....so what has that got to do with what I believe?

Precisely, Gods creation began with Jesus in the first century, this is why Paul stated a new creature. They looked for new heavens and a new earth. Your looking for the literal I’m looking for those that are spiritual.

If that is what you think is the truth, then you go with that....not much more I can say when there is not a single scripture that backs up what you wish to believe....IMO, you have overlooked everything the Bible specifically says about all of it. But we will all stand before the same judge, and he will tell us if we got it right, or if we failed to “do the will” of the Father. (Matt 7:21-23)