The Glory
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........M'kay....and? Who was claiming to be "wise"?
Study to show thyself approved. And this post has gone way over your head. It is not on sanctification, but glorification. Bye.
There's no *strange obsession* regarding glorification. God's plan of salvation did not stop with simply saving sinners from Hell. His ultimate objective for His children -- who are significantly called "Children of Light" -- is their glorification (the order being justification, sanctification, and glorification -- Rom 8:29,30).
God is Light and Christ is Light also, therefore the children of God will ultimately be perfected (body, soul, and spirit) and their glorified bodies will radiate light. Since the saints will dwell continuously in the very presence of God's light, they will reflect the glory of Christ themselves. Holy angels currently radiate light, but all the saints will also resemble them in the future (and for eternity). Some have postulated that until Adam and Eve sinned, they were clothed in light, hence had no knowledge of nakedness. It is entirely possible.
We see an example of radiating light (after being in the presence of God) in the face of Moses, who literally had to hide his face behind a veil because his radiance was not supposed to be visible to the children of Israel.
EXODUS 34 (KJB)
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
The process which leads to glorification is sanctification, the setting apart of ourselves to God and to His will, making our calling and election sure.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yeah, all "processes" are of the [created/fallen] world...and justification, sanctification, and glorification are not - they are of God.
This is a topic for "rightly dividing the word." The world and God (darkness and Light) are different and separate, and must be divided in the word as such in order to understand what God is saying. Certainly, He does not mix the two...nor should we.
The whole "process" idea is of the world and relative to time, which is created. God, on the other hand, is timeless.
I'm just now studying this, and still do not see sanctification as a process. But I do see glorification as a process in my way of thinking. As soon as our sin nature was taken away, we were sanctified for a new purpose than sinning. Our free will then longs to do righteousness, and developing the mind of Christ. Taking on that godly trait is part of being glorified. We are not still being set apart. We either are or we aren't.
What would you call this process and why"
2 Peter 1:
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Not justification, because he is already cleansed of his old sins. So is this the process of being set apart as vessels for good works (sanctification), or literally becoming like God in mind, thought and deed as children of God (glorification).
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
As stated the word sanctification means to "set apart to make holy" and it implies the whole continuing process in life whereby the believer is being ' 'made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col. 1:12).
Sanctification is not instantaneous, but is a gradual work, continuing throughout life, that this "setting apart for a sacred purpose," is to prepare us to be "kings" and "priests" and requires not only time, but effort-not only the initial part of coming and presenting ourselves, but the keeping of that consecration alive.
The step of consecration on the part of those who become Jesus' disciples is in the Scriptures called sanctification. But it is not the same sanctification which comes to us through Him. God says, "Sanctify yourselves, and I will sanctify you"--that is, Set yourselves apart, and then I will set you apart; I will put you into this place where you desire to come. So, to all of us who come to the Father through Him, Jesus not only becomes our Justification, but through Him we also have Sanctification-- the complete setting apart. We are accepted in Him, and His grace and Advocacy enable us to attain complete and final sanctification. This is accomplished in the School of Christ.
When you enter this school you are not immediately sanctified, there are lessons to be learned, it is a process which takes a whole life-time.
God sets us apart by begetting us of the Holy Spirit to the new nature and making us prospective members of the Royal Priesthood--prospective members of the Body of the Anointed One. This is scripturally called a foretaste, or "earnest," of our inheritance, which will be experienced to the full when we are changed from the human to the spirit nature--"changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." But this "earnest of our inheritance" is given us with the intention of our growing in the process of sanctification already begun in us until its completion. We attain this through Christ.
Those who make satisfactory progress will have in the resurrection full deliverance from sin, from all imperfections of the flesh, and from the flesh itself--full deliverance through the power of the First Resurrection. Christ thus becomes our Deliverance.
There is no process to glorification, when those who make their calling and election sure pass beyond the second vail (of death) “be thou faithful unto death” then they shall receive their reward, “the crown of life” (Rev 2:10). The new mind is immediately joined to its new body, and WA-la glorified.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Indeed, it is a mere state of mind...and not a process at all.
There is no process with God, whom is forever the same. But rather, what would appear to be a process, is the creation of God's revelation of Himself to the fallen. By the illusion of time, we are caught up to God. Therefore, He said, and for this reason, it is timelessly true of any given day, that "today is the day of salvation." But it is a mere illusion, created in His image.
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Yes, God is timeless - He sees the end before it happens to us. So for us it is a process to get to that end. So do you see glorification as at our death only? This is what I'm trying to figure out. The difference between sanctification and glorification. Justification I think is clearer - it is when our past sins are cleansed. Many believe that includes the sins we are presently committing and those we haven't committed yet. Scripture doesn't bear witness to that belief regarding willful sin, but may only on unintentional sin. It is our past sins that are cleansed, both willful and unintentional. That is why the Holy Spirit is given to us at that moment - so we don't commit intentional sin in the future. I believe that at justification, our whole sin nature is replaced to one which cannot commit willful sin. What do you think? However, even without that sin nature, we still commit unintentional transgressions. So how is that possible to even commit transgressions without a sin nature still intact? The only safe thing to do is to never get out of the Spirit, but to continually walk in the Spirit.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
No...this is a bit more abstract than that. This is God's business, and He doesn't just see the end before it happens, there is no clock or calendar in these matters. That is not how God works - It is finished.
On the contrary, all chronology is a mere component of created time, an illusion that gives one the impression of past, present, and future - that is not real with God. This is Him reading a story that is already written to His children, a story of what is, not what will be. The only thing that makes it appear as the future unfolding, is that we are hearing about it for the first time. But God is not the god of what will be, but the god of what is. Therefore, He does not say, I was, or I will be, but rather, I am.
When we see Him as He is (as "I am"), then we will be like Him. 1 John 3:2
I'm not sure if we are one the same page or not. Regarding our sins and our sin nature, what is justification to you. You aren't a Universalist are you?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I am not sure what a Universalist is...so no. But I do know what "I am."
Justification is what happened in the twinkling of an eye when Jesus said, "It is finished."
That sounds like Universalism. Hmmmm... So since Jesus died, is the whole world justified? Is the whole world now saved? And even those before Christ?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No. I am afraid your use of 'isms has you going off in left field. We were talking about "processes", and my point was/is that there are no processes.
The idea of processes comes from a misunderstanding of what is actually the case - the would be chronology of time is not a chronological process at all, but a revelation in a manner which God has determined we can bear. In other words, when Jesus explained, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now", He had reached the end of the apostles ability to bear all that had been revealed to them in the short time of His teaching them - they, and the world, simply needed more time, meaning more unfolding revelation.
It is for this reason, that Paul declared, "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years [i.e. time]." Saying "I am afraid for you..." and therefore preached the "renewing" of the mind.
Yet here we are, still struggling to bear the full measure of the timeless truth and reality of God, insisting that it all must surely come in terms of time, which is ungodly. And therefore, it is true that "we do not precede the dead" in such knowledge, for it would seem that we prefer the ways of men and of the world.
Nevertheless, if you can receive it, "the truth shall make you free."
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You are still talking riddles. My question is not that hard to give a clear answer. If, as you say, justification is at the cross, then are we involved at all? Are all saved? Or must each person repent first before justification applies to them. And if no process is involved, is each person a mature Christian day one? Have they mature fruit? Have they all the gifts? Do they understand all scripture perfectly as the Author meant it? They don't go from glory to glory, but are already in the glory day one?
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
“Now the free gift (justification to life) is not like the offense. For if through the offence of one (man, Adam) many be dead (under condemnation to death), much more the grace of God (the gracious plan of salvation), and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." (Rom 5:15) Paul here begins to zero in on his main subject, a contrast between original sin and the act, which brings redemption. Although the ransom is a corresponding price, a perfect life for a perfect life, Paul is emphasizing the differences between the redemption and the sin for which it atones. The original sin was of one man; the atoning act covered the sins of many. The original sentence was for one act of disobedience; the atonement covers a multitude of transgressions, i.e. the sins of the world.
The fact is that Jesus’ death was the equivalent or corresponding price for Adam’s sin and penalty, and quite sufficient to legally effect the release of every member of the race.
The economical feature of the Divine Plan is a most wonderful thought. By one man's disobedience God permitted the results of that transgression to affect all of Adam's children. All mankind were involved under the original sin, of the one man.
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men." (Rom 5:12)
Then in due time God so arranged that the sin of the one man, Adam, would be met by the Man Christ Jesus; that thus Adam would in due time be freed from the death penalty; and that all his children, who inherited death as well as weakness and imperfection through him, would also be amenable to this one redemption--that the one Ransom-price was sufficient for Adam and all his posterity.
“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment (i.e. the sentence or curse) came to all men (extensively) resulting in condemnation… (All fall short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one) even so through one man’s righteous act (the Man Christ Jesus who gave his life a ransom for all) the free gift (redemption from the Adamic curse) came to all men (co-extensively) resulting in (the sentence of) justification of life.” (Rom 5:18)
God’s justice which is very precise and exacting cannot be changed nor altered, thus what he declares to be, shall be. “My counsel (my purpose or will) shall stand” Isa 46:10; 55:11
So then shall we understand that the resurrection of the dead is optional or compulsory upon Justice?
Christ having "tasted death for every man," it is certainly compulsory on Justice to release the prisoners held for sin. Christ's sacrifice having been accepted as "the propitiation (settlement) of our sins, and not of ours (believers) only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD," all must go free because God is Just.
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have (unconditionally) ALL MEN to be saved (from the original Adamic curse), and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim 2:3-6)
Understand that we are not Universalist, God having saved (redeemed) all men from the original curse which was upon Adam and his race does not guarantee everlasting life to any, he merely releases us from the original sentence, brought upon us by Adam’s sin. Eternal salvation will be determined upon the conclusion of the trial (a new trial) of each individual, the Church presently during this the Gospel Age as each prospective member of the body passes beyond the Vail of death, and the remainder of the world by the end of the Mediatorial reign at the end of the millennial age.
The penalty for sins was paid in full at the Cross. But no sinner can be justified (declared righteous in Christ) until and until he obeys the Gospel and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 4.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Okay...back to shallow waters then...and the fallen world of time.
- All things were accomplished (finished) at the cross. We "were" crucified with Christ, who "was" slain before the foundation of the world - before time. We "were" raised up with Him. All past tense.
- No, all are not saved. Each person must decide.
- Each person who is born [again] of the spirit of God, is a new creation - day one, 100%, gifts and all, used or not. Old things have passed away, and all things have become new.
- Fruit is from God (the Holy Spirit), not from Christians.
- As for the scriptures, all knowledge is from God. Do even the unsaved use all of their mind? No. But they have an excuse, we do not - we have God. But the difference is not of doctrine, but of revelation, and there is no revelation given to those who sleep, only to the dead and to the living.
- "Glory to glory" has nothing to do with what we do in the world. Glory is of the kingdom. Therefore, if and when we go "from glory to glory", we go from life to life (meaning from God to God), not from the world to God as if those of the world could save themselves. Glory and salvation are from God, therefore the scriptures say "from glory to glory."
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