The Glory

[Helen]

The penalty for sins was paid in full at the Cross. But no sinner can be justified (declared righteous in Christ) until and until he obeys the Gospel and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 4.

I didn't notice ScottA talking about "sinners."

Rom 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

 

[ScottA]

The penalty for sins was paid in full at the Cross. But no sinner can be justified (declared righteous in Christ) until and until he obeys the Gospel and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 4.

That is only true from a worldly perspective.

Every word from God clearly states (in past tense) that all things "were" accomplished in Christ "before the foundation of the world." Not to be confused with the revelation thereof to and in the world.

If we are in God as Christ is in the Father, it is not proper or accurate to say "I will be" justified, but rather "I am." By definition then, if we say we are not yet justified, we are not "in Christ", though He stands at the door knocking.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Okay...back to shallow waters then...and the fallen world of time.

1. All things were accomplished (finished) at the cross. We "were" crucified with Christ, who "was" slain before the foundation of the world - before time. We "were" raised up with Him. All past tense.
2. No, all are not saved. Each person must decide.
3. Each person who is born [again] of the spirit of God, is a new creation - day one, 100%, gifts and all, used or not. Old things have passed away, and all things have become new.
4. Fruit is from God (the Holy Spirit), not from Christians.
5. As for the scriptures, all knowledge is from God. Do even the unsaved use all of their mind? No. But they have an excuse, we do not - we have God. But the difference is not of doctrine, but of revelation, and there is no revelation given to those who sleep, only to the dead and to the living.
6. "Glory to glory" has nothing to do with what we do in the world. Glory is of the kingdom. Therefore, if and when we go "from glory to glory", we go from life to life (meaning from God to God), not from the world to God as if those of the world could save themselves. Glory and salvation are from God, therefore the scriptures say "from glory to glory."

That is clearer. Thank you. Glad you are not a Universalist, but frankly I couldn't tell before.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The penalty for sins was paid in full at the Cross. But no sinner can be justified (declared righteous in Christ) until and until he obeys the Gospel and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Romans 4.

I think he is quoting Galatians 2:20 and Romans 6.

 

[Enoch111]

If we are in God as Christ is in the Father, it is not proper or accurate to say "I will be" justified, but rather "I am."

This is correct. But what was accomplished at the Cross is applicable to only those who believe. And they are justified at the moment that they believe. And all may be justified if all will believe.

 

[ScottA]

This is correct. But what was accomplished at the Cross is applicable to only those who believe. And they are justified at the moment that they believe. And all may be justified if all will believe.

True. But I would much prefer, and do recommend, that we who have the mind of Christ, stop using the world's perspective and calendar, and begin to use Christ's perspective. In other words, it is not incorrect to say that we are justified beginning on "that day when we believe", as if God really keeps a calendar... but more correct to say "today", just as Jesus did.

The point being, that the scriptures are full of passages that say "On that day, when you...", but only because it speaks to a lost world that has its own schedule, in spite of every day being "I am", as it is with God. But "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"...and we should aspire to be "like Him."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is correct. But what was accomplished at the Cross is applicable to only those who believe. And they are justified at the moment that they believe. And all may be justified if all will believe.

The question then becomes what does it mean to believe? It certainly doesn't mean that you know Jesus is the Son of God - even the demons know that much and tremble. So you have to ask yourself what did Jesus come to do? He was manifest to take away our sin, and in him there is no sin. And what does that mean? It means the first step has to do with our sin, and realizing we can not be holy or righteous on our own. We must turn to Christ and ask Him to save us from ourselves. He does that through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who replaces our old nature and makes us dead to sin, removing us out of the flesh and into the Spirit.

What it does not mean is that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning. No. How can you keep sinning when you are dead to sin? Is the Spirit that weak? Many false teachers have said this because they cannot relate to being filled with the Spirit, so their natural man tries to justify their own sin they have no power over, because the Spirit isn't in them. Then they become the blind leading the blind. They are lukewarm, neither hot, on fire for God; nor cold and refreshing.

 

[Enoch111]

He does that through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who replaces our old nature and makes us dead to sin, removing us out of the flesh and into the Spirit.

According to Scripture, the old sin nature (the "old man" OR "the flesh") is not eradicated. If that were true, we all would be sinlessly perfect. So there is an inner conflict between the flesh and the Spirit.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against [HAS DESIRES OPPOSED TO] the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Gal 5:16,17).

Therefore Christians are told to mortify or crucify "the flesh".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

According to Scripture, the old sin nature (the "old man" OR "the flesh") is not eradicated. If that were true, we all would be sinlessly perfect. So there is an inner conflict between the flesh and the Spirit.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against [HAS DESIRES OPPOSED TO] the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Gal 5:16,17).

Therefore Christians are told to mortify or crucify "the flesh".

Yes, I see it a bit differently, but have been having that same question. My question is, if we are dead to sin Romans 6:2, and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit Romans 8:9, then that takes care of willful sins that our sin nature produced, but that leaves a question regarding our unintentional transgressions we commit. Why does our new nature (new creature in Christ) not take care of transgressions (Leviticus 5:15)? What do you think?

 

[Dcopymope]

There's no *strange obsession* regarding glorification. God's plan of salvation did not stop with simply saving sinners from Hell. His ultimate objective for His children -- who are significantly called "Children of Light" -- is their glorification (the order being justification, sanctification, and glorification -- Rom 8:29,30).

God is Light and Christ is Light also, therefore the children of God will ultimately be perfected (body, soul, and spirit) and their glorified bodies will radiate light. Since the saints will dwell continuously in the very presence of God's light, they will reflect the glory of Christ themselves. Holy angels currently radiate light, but all the saints will also resemble them in the future (and for eternity). Some have postulated that until Adam and Eve sinned, they were clothed in light, hence had no knowledge of nakedness. It is entirely possible.

We see an example of radiating light (after being in the presence of God) in the face of Moses, who literally had to hide his face behind a veil because his radiance was not supposed to be visible to the children of Israel.

EXODUS 34 (KJB)
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Ok, you are the first proponent of the human light bulb belief I've actually seen give a reasonable explanation for it. Maybe now we can actually get somewhere. The difference between your explanation and the wacko, far out of left field one I see typically given is the actual source of the light itself. The usual explanation given is that the body radiates light because it is made of light, while you basically explain it as the body radiating light because of the presence of God, and not so much the body itself. The former explanation makes zero sense to me because it ascribes an attribute to the body that is not justified in scripture. This means that in Adam and Eve's case, they were not really "clothed in light", especially if the shining face of Moses is any indication at all. Its not like the guys face was lit up like a bright torch all the time from there on in. Adam and Eve, as far as scripture is concerned is largely irrelevant anyway concerning the nature of the glorified bodies because it is not Adam's body its compared to.

Paul says the first Adam was made a mortal being while the second Adam is made immortal, like that of Jesus. Jesus didn't say anything about the bodies the saints receive being like Adams either, but like the angels, and he didn't say anything about it shining like a light all the time. I don't recall the resurrected form of Jesus giving off light either. By "like the angels in heaven", he meant in terms of death no longer applying to us and nothing more than that. That is why Adam and Eve needed a "tree of life" to sustain themselves and were later forbidden from eating from it, ensuring their death. Whereas the bodies the saints receive will obviously be so much more than that of Adam. Scripture states that all who believe in Jesus shall never die because he is "the life", and Revelation shows Jesus is the life giving source of the tree. Scripture states that it is by his stripes that we are healed while John states that it is by the leaves from the tree that the nations are healed. That just about excludes the tree of life as being at all relevant to the saints in New Jerusalem and shows there will in fact be many more present than just "the saints".

(John 11:25-26) "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

(Revelation 22:1-3) "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. {2} In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. {3} And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

For the healing of the nations, not for the healing of "the saints".

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, I see it a bit differently, but have been having that same question. My question is, if we are dead to sin Romans 6:2, and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit Romans 8:9, then that takes care of willful sins that our sin nature produced...

So now we need to understand the meaning of “dead to sin”, given the fact that no Christian is sinlessly perfect in his or her mortal body: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Rom 6:2)

The answer is found in some of the succeeding verses:

1. Our “old man” (sin nature) was crucified with Christ, so that we are no longer enslaved to sin: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(v 6)

2. We are to “reckon ourselves” as dead to sin and alive to God: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (v 11). This is an act of faith, just as we believe God that He has justified us by His grace.

3. Therefore sin shall not have dominion (dominance, control) over the Christian: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (v 14). Which means that the "old man" cannot dominate the "new man" unless we allow it.

...but that leaves a question regarding our unintentional transgressions we commit. Why does our new nature (new creature in Christ) not take care of transgressions (Leviticus 5:15)? What do you think?

As already noted in Galatians, our new nature (which has the indwelling Holy Spirit) is at war with our old nature. And there are times that “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”. And so Christians can sin unintentionally (but sometimes intentionally).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So now we need to understand the meaning of “dead to sin”, given the fact that no Christian is sinlessly perfect in his or her mortal body: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Rom 6:2)

The answer is found in some of the succeeding verses:

1. Our “old man” (sin nature) was crucified with Christ, so that we are no longer enslaved to sin: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(v 6)

2. We are to “reckon ourselves” as dead to sin and alive to God: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (v 11). This is an act of faith, just as we believe God that He has justified us by His grace.

3. Therefore sin shall not have dominion (dominance, control) over the Christian: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (v 14). Which means that the "old man" cannot dominate the "new man" unless we allow it.



As already noted in Galatians, our new nature (which has the indwelling Holy Spirit) is at war with our old nature. And there are times that “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”. And so Christians can sin unintentionally (but sometimes intentionally).

Not, intentionally. Otherwise the warnings are meaningless. The works of the flesh are evident, and those who do them shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There's no *strange obsession* regarding glorification. God's plan of salvation did not stop with simply saving sinners from Hell. His ultimate objective for His children -- who are significantly called "Children of Light" -- is their glorification (the order being justification, sanctification, and glorification -- Rom 8:29,30).

God is Light and Christ is Light also, therefore the children of God will ultimately be perfected (body, soul, and spirit) and their glorified bodies will radiate light. Since the saints will dwell continuously in the very presence of God's light, they will reflect the glory of Christ themselves. Holy angels currently radiate light, but all the saints will also resemble them in the future (and for eternity). Some have postulated that until Adam and Eve sinned, they were clothed in light, hence had no knowledge of nakedness. It is entirely possible.

We see an example of radiating light (after being in the presence of God) in the face of Moses, who literally had to hide his face behind a veil because his radiance was not supposed to be visible to the children of Israel.

EXODUS 34 (KJB)
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Wonderful verse, Romans 8:29-30 Thank you very much. That helps a lot in my studies on glorification.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ok, you are the first proponent of the human light bulb belief I've actually seen give a reasonable explanation for it. Maybe now we can actually get somewhere. The difference between your explanation and the wacko, far out of left field one I see typically given is the actual source of the light itself. The usual explanation given is that the body radiates light because it is made of light, while you basically explain it as the body radiating light because of the presence of God, and not so much the body itself. The former explanation makes zero sense to me because it ascribes an attribute to the body that is not justified in scripture. This means that in Adam and Eve's case, they were not really "clothed in light", especially if the shining face of Moses is any indication at all. Its not like the guys face was lit up like a bright torch all the time from there on in. Adam and Eve, as far as scripture is concerned is largely irrelevant anyway concerning the nature of the glorified bodies because it is not Adam's body its compared to.

Paul says the first Adam was made a mortal being while the second Adam is made immortal, like that of Jesus. Jesus didn't say anything about the bodies the saints receive being like Adams either, but like the angels, and he didn't say anything about it shining like a light all the time. I don't recall the resurrected form of Jesus giving off light either. By "like the angels in heaven", he meant in terms of death no longer applying to us and nothing more than that. That is why Adam and Eve needed a "tree of life" to sustain themselves and were later forbidden from eating from it, ensuring their death. Whereas the bodies the saints receive will obviously be so much more than that of Adam. Scripture states that all who believe in Jesus shall never die because he is "the life", and Revelation shows Jesus is the life giving source of the tree. Scripture states that it is by his stripes that we are healed while John states that it is by the leaves from the tree that the nations are healed. That just about excludes the tree of life as being at all relevant to the saints in New Jerusalem and shows there will in fact be many more present than just "the saints".



For the healing of the nations, not for the healing of "the saints".

Are you saying that someone is saying that the body is emanating light, such as energy. I must have missed that post.

 

[Dcopymope]

Are you saying that someone is saying that the body is emanating light, such as energy. I must have missed that post.

Plenty of people here have proposed the human torch belief. It is a very common belief among believers in general. Jesus Christ wasn't lit up like a light bulb after his resurrection yet they believe they will without a shred of evidence justifying this belief in Scripture.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Plenty of people here have proposed the human torch belief. It is a very common belief among believers in general. Jesus Christ wasn't lit up like a light bulb after his resurrection yet they believe they will without a shred of evidence justifying this belief in Scripture.

Never heard of it.

 

[Enoch111]

Not, intentionally. Otherwise the warnings are meaningless.

Not intentionally? Unfortunately that is incorrect. Many do sin intentionally by disregarding the words of Scripture in certain matters.

 

[Dcopymope]

Not intentionally? Unfortunately that is incorrect. Many do sin intentionally by disregarding the words of Scripture in certain matters.

'Intentional' or not, regurgitating scripture on overcoming sin is much, MUCH easier than actually doing it. It isn't any easier than walking on water, or healing the sick, or growing back an arm and a leg. I recall one individual give a prayer request for the latter, and the responses given were expected, and quite nauseating to say the least, because its the typical responses most Christians give. Hes no longer a member of this site and I really can't blame him. The standards ascribed to what are largely viewed as "miracles" are not up held when it comes to "overcoming sin" as if that is any less a "miracle" than any other feat Jesus and the apostles ever did. He wasn't asking for a "parlor trick", yet this is exactly what one claimed he asked for, putting words in his mouth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Not intentionally? Unfortunately that is incorrect. Many do sin intentionally by disregarding the words of Scripture in certain matters.

That is judged by God. We are all capable of sinning intentionally or else Paul wouldn't warn to fervently against quenching the Spirit in that way. It is certainly not something that everyone does though.

 

[epostle1]

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

“Witnesses” of Hebrews 12:1
(Communion of Saints)

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
http://theologyforums.com/index.php?threads/communion-of-saints.928/