The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Keturah]

IMO based on the very faith given to me by God to accept his gift of salvation; also by that faith built up through prayer and study, I will stand before him as HE SEES ME.

It does not matter whether we think we each fall well below the plum line. What matters is HOW God sees us walking in his word and his will.

It is God I will stand before for HIS final judgment by having my name in the " Book of Life".

 

[Keturah]

I would like to say to @Johann
I read the first few pages of your thread and thank you for stating it simply.

The word is  not hard if we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit of God.

Who among us counts sin attributed to another?

If our eyes are always casting about to check everyone's progress then they are not examining self against the word for our own transgressions.

Edit addition:

Every man's ways are right in their own eyes. Their doctrines are as well bc this is what they  want to believe as OPPOSED to what God says.

 

[-Phil]

Reality is sheer perfection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you are making false assumptions, I am very familiar with the Westcott and Hort controversy brother, like you, I don't hold to textual criticism either, once again, the way you study/read the scriptures and the way I study is my business.

2Ti_2:19 Neuerthelesse the foundation of God standeth sure, hauing the seale, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let euery one that nameth the Name of Christ, depart from iniquitie.

ο μεντοι στερεος θεμελιος του θεου εστηκεν εχων την σφραγιδα ταυτην εγνω κυριος τους οντας αυτου και αποστητω απο αδικιας πας ο ονομαζων το ονομα χριστου

2Ti 2:19 But the firm foundation of (laid by) God stands, sure and unshaken, bearing this seal (inscription): The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names [himself by] the name of the Lord give up all iniquity and stand aloof from it. [Num_16:5; Isa_26:13]
AMPC
View attachment 27793

Textus Receptus.
J.

Grace and peace to you this fine day that the Lord Jesus has made. His mercy and goodness endures forever (despite our disagreement here).

Anyways, to get down to the topic at hand:

Please take no offense, but you said you don’t hold to Textual Criticism. Yet, you don’t know what this term means because you contradict yourself by employing Textual Criticism in the very same post. Here is the definition of Textual Criticism by a simple Google search, my friend.

Source:

what is textual criticism - Google Search

www.google.com

Notice, that Textual Criticism is the process of attempting to ascertain the original wording of a text.

This is exactly what you tried to do in your post by looking to the original languages to find out the meaning (Instead of believing any Bible in the English). YOU become the authority (instead of the Bible) because YOU are picking and choosing what definition you prefer out of multiple definitions for that one word in a Lexicon (Original Languages Dictionary made by Modern scholars and not God). This would be choosing a word that runs contrary to the English (Making yourself in higher authority than the 47 translators of the King James Bible).

Notice that you did not employ Textual Criticism with 1 John 1:8. Why? Because you like the out of context reading of 1 John 1:8 in the English because it caters to your preferred mindset in setting out to defend sin (Just as others falsely use Isaiah 45:7 to defend the wrong idea that God creates evil directly by our Modern understanding on that word). But God cannot agree with your sin. Therein lies the problem (of which you cannot see). So when you are confronted with a truth you don’t like in the Bible in the English, you have to play the Textual Criticism game and try to undo the text in English (With selecting an original languages definition from a Lexicon you prefer).

My encouragement: Pray to ask God to seek ye out the book of the LORD (Isaiah 34:16).

The problem in Textual Criticism is that most of them don’t actually believe there is any perfect inerrant divinely inspired Bible in the original languages that exists that they can hold in their hands and read and speak from.

Let God’s Spirit guide you to the right Bible. I believe if you do so… He will guide you to the King James Bible (while also using Modern Bibles to help update the 1600’s English in the KJB). At least that has been my journey so far with the LORD. For you cannot have a final Word of authority in our our own current modern day language by looking to dead languages that you cannot possibly really know. God will hold us accountable to the language we know and not to a language we don’t know. I believe God preserved His words for today just as His Word says (Psalms 12:6-7 KJB). One of the goals of the devil is to attack God’s Word and to distort it. We see this both in the Garden of Eden with the serpent and Eve and we also see this with Jesus in the wilderness (a desert area) with the devil.

Textual Criticism is about having faith in scholars and or Lexicons and in yourself (picking and choosing a definition of your choice out of an array of definitions). Not even all Lexicons are the same. Not all manuscripts are the same. So where is your Bible in the original languages? There isn’t one. You need a perfect Bible because if you don’t have a perfect Bible then how do you know you have the correct doctrines? Yet…

Every word of God is pure (Proverbs 30:5).

 

[RLT63]

To quote a fellow Christian,

”The error in your reasoning is that it fails to account for differences that occur over time. The state of a particular man at time A does not necessitate that he be in that same state at time B. John Doe may not be keeping all of our Lord's commandments today, but tomorrow it is possible for him, by the grace of God.” ~ Swag365 (Source).​

In other words, do you still drink only milk like when you were a baby (Whereby you could not have solid food)? So to reason that is how you must be your whole life does not necessitate how you will always be that way. So confession of sin is something a believer will do in the early years (and possibly the mid years) of their faith before they completely mature in perfection and ween themselves to a point in being a slave to righteousness. Yep. Romans 6 talks about how you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. One is either one or the other.

The devil was said to be perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found within him.
So even if one was perfect, it does not mean they cannot choose to walk away from God.
I believe Christians must go through a Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit as a part of their growth in overcoming sin eventually in this life and being perfect. Are all Christians who are in the Sanctification Process “perfect” now? No. But they can be If they persevere in the faith with God’s help and power. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God. So it’s a perfecting of holiness to the end goal of being perfect at some point in this life. The goal is to not to stumble or fall. There are ways not to stumble as a Christian. 1 John 2:10 says if you love your brother there will be nothing on the inside of you that will make you stumble. So you could still sin of your free will choice, but you will not be controlled by sin if you are loving your brother (by helping in need, etcetera). In 2 Peter 1:5-11, there are certain things we add to our faith that if we have these things in abundance, we will not stumble or fall and an entrance will be abundantly be ministered to us to the everlasting Kingdom. This is also how you make your call and election sure, as well. But these are verses that many in your type of belief do not truly believe. You don’t believe adding to your faith certain things is tied to not falling and entering the Kingdom.

​

​

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14–24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that people sometimes get confused about is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11–13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected, and the bodies of the living will be changed (Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9–15). Our redemption will be complete, and our sin will be gone forever. We will live and reign with Christ in sinless perfection forever.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14–24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Good day to you, and greetings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ who is forever blessed.

To get down to business:

First, the thing is if you keep reading the context of the chapter it supports how we are no longer to walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk (Ephesians 4:17). We are told to put off the former conduct (bad behavior) (Ephesians 4:22).

​

17 "This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,​

18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;​

19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.​

20 But you have not so learned Christ,​

21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:​

22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,​

23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,​

24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24) (NKJV).​

We are told to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:27).
Let him who stole steal no longer, (Ephesians 4:28). This sounds like overcoming a particular sin to me (Which in this case would be stealing).

One is not really putting off their former conduct if they are still sinning daily or weekly. They would be walking as the Gentiles walk.

Second, Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This is in context to DOING certain things like loving your enemies, giving to those who desire to borrow from you, etcetera. The Heavenly Father is perfect not because He believes on the finished work of the cross (Because God needs no Savior) but because God is perfect and holy in His conduct. We are to be as perfect as the Heavenly Father is according to the words of Jesus (of which I cannot see how you believe them in this particular instance with your current belief). 1 Peter 1:16 says, "Be ye holy; for I am holy." God desires us to be holy as He is. Imagine that? But to the carnal mind it sounds impossible. But with God, all things are possible. During the time of the Old Covenant, the Israelite was capable of winning against great odds when their enemies outnumbered them in battle. The carnal minded Israelites throughout history did not think it was possible to win in such scenarios. So it is today. Men today walk by sight and not by faith in what God says.

As for Romans 7:14-24: Again, this is an infamous passage that is used by those who attempt to excuse sin and deny true Sanctification that leads to eventual perfection in this life. The surrounding context (the chapter itself, the previous chapter and the following chapters) does not support the notion that one is a slave to sin as a Christian. Romans 6, Paul says that we are not slaves to sin but we are slaves to righteousness. Romans 7 sets out to talk to those who know the Old Law (i.e. the Laws of Moses) setting the framework that the struggle Paul was having was when he was under the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. This is obvious when you keep reading in the next chapter when it says in Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." So the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant Law) sets us from the Law of Sin and Death (i.e. the Torah or the Old Law). This is why Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Paul illustrates his struggle in trying to keep the righteous aspect of the Old Law (Romans 13:8-10) (Romans 8:4) in Romans 7:14-24 because he was under the Old Law. This again is evident because Paul asks the question: "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Christians would not ask such a question because they already know the answer to such a question in that it is Jesus. Only the Israelite who is under the Old Law still and who does not know Jesus is their Savior would ask such a question. So your sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 does not hold water (Not to mention it is immoral because God cannot agree with your sin).

Another passage that people sometimes get confused about is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the Greek word for perfect should be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “having no sin.”

Respectfully, that is incorrect. If one is a mature adult, they are not going to be making the same mistakes they did as a child. Your not mature if you are enslaved to sin. So the next time you slip up into sin, can you really say you are mature? Surely not. It would mean you are a slave to sin and not a slave to righteousness. If a person declares they will always sin (then they are declaring that they are a slave to sin). Jesus says the person who sins is a slave to sin and a slave (slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35). We see this truth illustrated in Matthew 13:41-42. In Matthew 13:41-42, the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS Kingdom all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So those in Christ's Kingdom who justify sin or make a defense for sinning will be cast out of Christ's Kingdom at the Judgment.

Again, the argument against being perfect is demolished by looking at the whole counsel of God's Word. As I stated before, Jesus said be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. God does not justify sin. So you cannot either. 1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ. Jesus did not justify sin like many Christians today do. Do you have the mind of Christ? You cannot have the mind of Christ if you justify the idea that you must sin again. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. This was in context to their holy conduct (See: Revelation 14:1-5). The list goes on and on and you have to duck, dodge, and ignore the whole counsel of God's Word at every turn. I mean, I would pray over these verses and be really sure. Because if you are wrong, you have everything to lose, my friend (By not submitting to God's way of righteousness).

 

[RLT63]

Good day to you, and greetings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ who is forever blessed.

To get down to business:

First, the thing is if you keep reading the context of the chapter it supports how we are no longer to walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk (Ephesians 4:17). We are told to put off the former conduct (bad behavior) (Ephesians 4:22).

​

17 "This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,​

18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;​

19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.​

20 But you have not so learned Christ,​

21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:​

22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,​

23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,​

24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-24) (NKJV).​

We are told to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:27).
Let him who stole steal no longer, (Ephesians 4:28). This sounds like overcoming a particular sin to me (Which in this case would be stealing).

One is not really putting off their former conduct if they are still sinning daily or weekly. They would be walking as the Gentiles walk.

Second, Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This is in context to DOING certain things like loving your enemies, giving to those who desire to borrow from you, etcetera. The Heavenly Father is perfect not because He believes on the finished work of the cross (Because God needs no Savior) but because God is perfect and holy in His conduct. We are to be as perfect as the Heavenly Father is according to the words of Jesus (of which I cannot see how you believe them in this particular instance with your current belief). 1 Peter 1:16 says, "Be ye holy; for I am holy." God desires us to be holy as He is. Imagine that? But to the carnal mind it sounds impossible. But with God, all things are possible. During the time of the Old Covenant, the Israelite was capable of winning against great odds when their enemies outnumbered them in battle. The carnal minded Israelites throughout history did not think it was possible to win in such scenarios. So it is today. Men today walk by sight and not by faith in what God says.

As for Romans 7:14-24: Again, this is an infamous passage that is used by those who attempt to excuse sin and deny true Sanctification that leads to eventual perfection in this life. The surrounding context (the chapter itself, the previous chapter and the following chapters) does not support the notion that one is a slave to sin as a Christian. Romans 6, Paul says that we are not slaves to sin but we are slaves to righteousness. Romans 7 sets out to talk to those who know the Old Law (i.e. the Laws of Moses) setting the framework that the struggle Paul was having was when he was under the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. This is obvious when you keep reading in the next chapter when it says in Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." So the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant Law) sets us from the Law of Sin and Death (i.e. the Torah or the Old Law). This is why Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Paul illustrates his struggle in trying to keep the righteous aspect of the Old Law (Romans 13:8-10) (Romans 8:4) in Romans 7:14-24 because he was under the Old Law. This again is evident because Paul asks the question: "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Christians would not ask such a question because they already know the answer to such a question in that it is Jesus. Only the Israelite who is under the Old Law still and who does not know Jesus is their Savior would ask such a question. So your sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 does not hold water (Not to mention it is immoral because God cannot agree with your sin).


Respectfully, that is incorrect. If one is a mature adult, they are not going to be making the same mistakes they did as a child. Your not mature if you are enslaved to sin. So the next time you slip up into sin, can you really say you are mature? Surely not. It would mean you are a slave to sin and not a slave to righteousness. If a person declares they will always sin (then they are declaring that they are a slave to sin). Jesus says the person who sins is a slave to sin and a slave (slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35). We see this truth illustrated in Matthew 13:41-42. In Matthew 13:41-42, the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS Kingdom all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So those in Christ's Kingdom who justify sin or make a defense for sinning will be cast out of Christ's Kingdom at the Judgment.

Again, the argument against being perfect is demolished by looking at the whole counsel of God's Word. As I stated before, Jesus said be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. God does not justify sin. So you cannot either. 1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ. Jesus did not justify sin like many Christians today do. Do you have the mind of Christ? You cannot have the mind of Christ if you justify the idea that you must sin again. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. This was in context to their holy conduct (See: Revelation 14:1-5). The list goes on and on and you have to duck, dodge, and ignore the whole counsel of God's Word at every turn. I mean, I would pray over these verses and be really sure. Because if you are wrong, you have everything to lose, my friend (By not submitting to God's way of righteousness).

I have the blood of Jesus to justify me before God. I’m thankful my salvation is not earned by my own efforts, lest I should boast, It is the result of Jesus’ sacririce on the cross. There is nothing I can add to it. Sanctification is a process but it doesn’t earn us our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Jesus saves us

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have the blood of Jesus to justify me before God.

While trusting in the blood is necessary for salvation according to Romans 3:25, we also need to believe in 1 John 1:7, too.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light… the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
So if your not meeting the condition of walking in the light… the blood of Jesus will not continue to cleanse you from all sin.
Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.

I’m thankful my salvation is not earned by my own efforts,

Acts 2:40 (NIV)
”Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

Granted, Salvation is Synergistic (Whereby both God and man are involved).
But salvation is not of our our own efforts alone (Without God).
Nobody died for their own sins and had risen the third day for their conquering the penalty of sin (Which is death).
Nobody can forgive their own sins.
For we had to respond to His call to seek forgiveness with Him and believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Nobody can do the work of the Spirit involving their Sanctification without the Spirit (Which is a part of our salvation).
How so? Well, we also have to accept verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13 in addition to grace verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etcetera.

lest I should boast,

Stop! Boasting from Ephesians 2:9 is not the kind of work that is of the faith because it involves boasting.
Read Romans 3:27. It basically says boasting is excluded when it comes to the Law of Faith.
So this lets us know that Ephesians 2:9 are man directed works that is not of the faith, and Ephesians 2:10 are God directed works that ARE a part of the faith. So we are not saved by man directed works. But God directed works are required as a part of salvation (John 15:4-6) (James 2:17) (James 2:24) (Galatians 6:8-9).

But there is no boasting in works God tells you to do by faith (Romans 3:27).

In other words, you cannot boast if you are simply obeying what God told you to do according to His Word.

Luke 17:10
”So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

It is the result of Jesus’ sacririce on the cross. There is nothing I can add to it. Sanctification is a process but it doesn’t earn us our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Jesus saves us

It’s not about adding to the cross. The Bible says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). Christ gave Himself for us for the purpose that He might sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word so as to present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians5:25-27). Yes, Sanctification is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly says that God has chosen you to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14), not that it is the gospel.

Read again 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13 very slowly in prayer (and don’t seek to change these verses in what they say because you don’t like what they say). If you are unbiased reader of the text, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is simply describing a secondary aspect of salvation which is the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (After we are saved by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). For Hebrews 12:14 says follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Sanctification is a process but it doesn’t earn us our salvation.

Really? Actually, sanctification IS salvation

 

[RLT63]

Really? Actually, sanctification IS salvation

There’s salvation, sanctification and glorification. Salvation is freedom from the penalty of sin. Sanctification is freedom from the power of sin and Glorification is freedom from the presence of sin.

 

[RLT63]

While trusting in the blood is necessary for salvation according to Romans 3:25, we also need to believe in 1 John 1:7, too.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light… the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
So if your not meeting the condition of walking in the light… the blood of Jesus will not continue to cleanse you from all sin.
Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.



Acts 2:40 (NIV)
”Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

Granted, Salvation is Synergistic (Whereby both God and man are involved).
But salvation is not of our our own efforts alone (Without God).
Nobody died for their own sins and had risen the third day for their conquering the penalty of sin (Which is death).
Nobody can forgive their own sins.
For we had to respond to His call to seek forgiveness with Him and believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Nobody can do the work of the Spirit involving their Sanctification without the Spirit (Which is a part of our salvation).
How so? Well, we also have to accept verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13 in addition to grace verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etcetera.


Stop! Boasting from Ephesians 2:9 is not the kind of work that is of the faith because it involves boasting.
Read Romans 3:27. It basically says boasting is excluded when it comes to the Law of Faith.
So this lets us know that Ephesians 2:9 are man directed works that is not of the faith, and Ephesians 2:10 are God directed works that ARE a part of the faith. So we are not saved by man directed works. But God directed works are required as a part of salvation (John 15:4-6) (James 2:17) (James 2:24) (Galatians 6:8-9).

But there is no boasting in works God tells you to do by faith (Romans 3:27).

In other words, you cannot boast if you are simply obeying what God told you to do according to His Word.

Luke 17:10
”So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”


It’s not about adding to the cross. The Bible says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). Christ gave Himself for us for the purpose that He might sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word so as to present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians5:25-27). Yes, Sanctification is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly says that God has chosen you to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14), not that it is the gospel.

Read again 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13 very slowly in prayer (and don’t seek to change these verses in what they say because you don’t like what they say). If you are unbiased reader of the text, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is simply describing a secondary aspect of salvation which is the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (After we are saved by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). For Hebrews 12:14 says follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

So how many steps are there in your salvation plan? What if someone dies before they complete all the steps?

 

[mailmandan]

There’s salvation, sanctification and glorification. Salvation is freedom from the penalty of sin. Sanctification is freedom from the power of sin and Glorification is freedom from the presence of sin.

3 tenses of salvation.

We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (Justification)

We are being saved from the POWER of sin. (ongoing Sanctification)

We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (Glorification)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So how many steps are there in your salvation plan? What if someone dies before they complete all the steps?

While technically there are four aspects of salvation (Provisional Atonement, God’s grace, Sanctification, and Glorification - See here) there are only two aspects of salvation we as believers need to be primarily concerned with in this life.

For the Bible teaches:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,…”

This is not Calvinism by any means. Man has free will to either accept or reject God, but this happens when God illuminates the truth to a person at the right time or times in their life (Under the drawing of Christ and the conviction of the Spirit). For even Lydia’s heart was opened to understand Paul’s message. In other words, a person cannot believe without the working of God in their life to make that happen. But a person will know of the truth at the right time God chooses them to know the truth. It is up to the individual if they accept or reject the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

But there is only two steps we need to be concerned with (According to the Bible).
Grace and Sanctification (Which are by faith).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So how many steps are there in your salvation plan? What if someone dies before they complete all the steps?

The problem I have with your belief or those who believe as you do is that…

You don’t give an explanation (that gives honor to believing the text) to various verses that refutes your belief.

Generally in my experience verses are either…

#1. Ignored, or…
#2. Explained away by playing the original languages game, or by giving some odd ball definition that does not support the context (i.e. the chapter, or surrounding chapters).

But again, the Bible teaches that we need to be concerned with two steps in our salvation.

#1. God’s grace through faith (a process of salvation without works) (Ephesians 2:8-9).
#2. Sanctification and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (For other Sanctification for salvation verses: - See: Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So how many steps are there in your salvation plan? What if someone dies before they complete all the steps?

I mean, my problem is that you have to re-write Scripture at every turn to fit your belief. For example: When you encounter verses like 1 Timothy 6:12 (Which is a command) you have to change it’s meaning to fit your belief.

1 Timothy 6:12
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

This verse is saying I have to FIGHT the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. Most Christians have that deer in the headlights look when I tell them they have to fight. They don’t know that their own Bible is telling them to fight. It’s not just believing in the finished work of the cross (Which is a saying that is not even in the Bible). Your camp generally just has their own pet words or phrases that are not in the Bible and they ignore any other parts of the Bible that refutes their pet sayings that they invented (like…. “Hey, that’s Works Salvation if you do anything to be saved”). Little do they realize they do not even know their own Bible when they declare these types of statements. They don’t understand that grace gives us the ability do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). They don’t understand that a good tree that does not bear fruit will be cast forth as a branch and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

There’s salvation, sanctification and glorification. Salvation is freedom from the penalty of sin. Sanctification is freedom from the power of sin and Glorification is freedom from the presence of sin.

What did Jesus mean by lukewarm?

 

[RLT63]

I mean, my problem is that you have to re-write Scripture at every turn to fit your belief. For example: When you encounter verses like 1 Timothy 6:12 (Which is a command) you have to change it’s meaning to fit your belief.

1 Timothy 6:12
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

This verse is saying I have to FIGHT the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. Most Christians have that deer in the headlights look when I tell them they have to fight. They don’t know that their own Bible is telling them to fight. It’s not just believing in the finished work of the cross (Which is a saying that is not even in the Bible). Your camp generally just has their own pet words or phrases that are not in the Bible and they ignore any other parts of the Bible that refutes their pet sayings that they invented (like…. “Hey, that’s Works Salvation if you do anything to be saved”). Little do they realize they do not even know their own Bible when they declare these types of statements. They don’t understand that grace gives us the ability do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). They don’t understand that a good tree that does not bear fruit will be cast forth as a branch and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).

You really don’t know much about my beliefs, you couldn’t from a few posts, and you just lumped me in with others who disagree with you.

 

[RLT63]

What did Jesus mean by lukewarm?

What did he mean when he said not to judge people? Matthew 7:1-5

 

[RLT63]

I mean, my problem is that you have to re-write Scripture at every turn to fit your belief. For example: When you encounter verses like 1 Timothy 6:12 (Which is a command) you have to change it’s meaning to fit your belief.

1 Timothy 6:12
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

This verse is saying I have to FIGHT the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. Most Christians have that deer in the headlights look when I tell them they have to fight. They don’t know that their own Bible is telling them to fight. It’s not just believing in the finished work of the cross (Which is a saying that is not even in the Bible). Your camp generally just has their own pet words or phrases that are not in the Bible and they ignore any other parts of the Bible that refutes their pet sayings that they invented (like…. “Hey, that’s Works Salvation if you do anything to be saved”). Little do they realize they do not even know their own Bible when they declare these types of statements. They don’t understand that grace gives us the ability do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). They don’t understand that a good tree that does not bear fruit will be cast forth as a branch and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).

You really don’t know much about my beliefs, you couldn’t from a few posts, and you just lumped me in with others who disagree with you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You really don’t know much about my beliefs, you couldn’t from a few posts, and you just lumped me in with others who disagree with you.

You said in another thread: “Isaiah says our works are as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6” (Source).
This was in reply to another poster talking about Faith Alone. You appeared to affirm his statement by your misinterpretation of Isaiah. Note: Isaiah was talking about man made works and not the works of God that He was requiring of them to do. Read Isaiah 64:5.

You said: “There’s salvation, sanctification and glorification. Salvation is freedom from the penalty of sin. Sanctification is freedom from the power of sin and Glorification is freedom from the presence of sin.”

This again is the same exact thing that others in the Belief Alone Camp will mindlessly repeat as some kind of factual mantra.

You also gave plenty of like reps to MailmanDan. Dan and I go back in our discussions on this topic on another forum (And I know what he believes). So now you are acting like you hit your head and are pretending like you have not revealed anything about your beliefs here (When that is simply not the case). You also said you watch Chuck Missler. He is for Once Saved Always Saved and the standard cookie cutter Belief Alone Salvationism type belief, as well. You hold to the excuse to sin interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 (Which is common again amongst the Belief Alone Salvationist camp). You also asked me how many steps in salvation are there. This suggests you are unaware of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9 in what they plainly say. You have rejected their plain normal reading just like other Belief Alone Salvationists have done. For a Christian would know that it’s not all grace we are saved by if they were to simply read and believe their Bible plainly. You also talked about how you are saved only by the blood in post #787. So lets not pretend like your beliefs are hidden here (When they are not). You cannot undo what you said here.