The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[RLT63]

I always liked living in the Central Time Zone. Wish I still was.

I had a long day yesterday and ate Chinese food for supper, fours hours past my normal suppertime. Gave me some crazy wild dreams. That’s going to make for another long day today.

Do you work day shift or night shift?

Im on disability. Having sleep issues. I wake up several times a night and I have started seeing things. There’s a word for it, when part of your brain is still asleep.
Last night I saw my wife, she yelled my name then disappeared. Later I saw myself running toward me and pushing my chair back, then I felt something like two arms pushing down on me. It’s kind of scary. I called on Jesus to stop it.

 

[RLT63]

Im on disability. Having sleep issues. I wake up several times a night and I have started seeing things. There’s a word for it, when part of your brain is still asleep.
Last night I saw my wife, she yelled my name then disappeared. Later I saw myself running toward me and pushing my chair back, then I felt something like two arms pushing down on me. It’s kind of scary. I called on Jesus to stop it.

Thanks for the prayers

 

[Matthias]

Is Christianity the religion of peace?

Here’s what AI Overview says about it:

“Christianity contains a profound core message of peace, love, and forgiveness, but history and texts also reveal significant paradoxes. Whether it is considered a peaceful religion depends on whether you look at the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ or the historical and political actions of Christian institutions.

Core teachings and Pacifism

• The example of Jesus: The New Testament centers on the life and words if Jesus, who explicitly preached nonviolence, mercy, and reconciliation.

• Famous Directives: Jesus instructed followers to ‘turn the other cheek,’ love their enemies, and act as peacemakers.

• Early Church: For its first three centuries, Christianity was a marginalized minority. The early church largely practiced strict Christian pacifism, refusing military service and accepting persecution rather than inflicting violence.

• Modern Pacifism: Major historical figures Martin Luther King Jr. and organizations like the historic peace churches draw directly from Christian principles to champion nonviolent social change.

Historical Violence and Conflict

• The ‘Just War’ Tradition: As Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, theologians like Augustine developed ‘just war’ theories, arguing that violence could sometimes be morally necessary to protect the innocent or stop greater evil.

• State-Sanctioned Violence: Christian institutions have a long history of military engagement and coercion. Major examples include the Crusades, the Inquisition, forced conversions, and European wars of religion following the Reformation.

• Political Alignment: Critics point out that when the church had political power, it frequently functioned like any other state empire - using religious justification to conquer, suppress dissent, and wage war.”

I haven’t come up with anything new or clever @Riven. It’s just church history, which anyone can - and should - read for themselves.

 

[Riven]

Is Christianity the religion of peace?

Here’s what AI Overview says about it:

“Christianity contains a profound core message of peace, love, and forgiveness, but history and texts also reveal significant paradoxes. Whether it is considered a peaceful religion depends on whether you look at the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ or the historical and political actions of Christian institutions.

Core teachings and Pacifism

• The example of Jesus: The New Testament centers on the life and words if Jesus, who explicitly preached nonviolence, mercy, and reconciliation.

• Famous Directives: Jesus instructed followers to ‘turn the other cheek,’ love their enemies, and act as peacemakers.

• Early Church: For its first three centuries, Christianity was a marginalized minority. The early church largely practiced strict Christian pacifism, refusing military service and accepting persecution rather than inflicting violence.

• Modern Pacifism: Major historical figures Martin Luther King Jr. and organizations like the historic peace churches draw directly from Christian principles to champion nonviolent social change.

Historical Violence and Conflict

• The ‘Just War’ Tradition: As Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, theologians like Augustine developed ‘just war’ theories, arguing that violence could sometimes be morally necessary to protect the innocent or stop greater evil.

• State-Sanctioned Violence: Christian institutions have a long history of military engagement and coercion. Major examples include the Crusades, the Inquisition, forced conversions, and European wars of religion following the Reformation.

• Political Alignment: Critics point out that when the church had political power, it frequently functioned like any other state empire - using religious justification to conquer, suppress dissent, and wage war.”

I haven’t come up with anything new or clever @Riven. It’s just church history, which anyone can - and should - read for themselves.

The Catholics gets a bad rep because of the crusades. I assume you think they were wrong for defending their territories from Islamic expansion? Is there any case in history where you think Christians were justified in picking up the sword?

 

[Matthias]

The Catholics gets a bad rep because of the crusades. I assume you think they were wrong for defending their territories from Islamic expansion?

The Catholics didn’t obey the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

The state, not the church, has the God-given role and responsibility of protecting its citizens.

Once the roles of church and state are mixed, we’re outside the bounds of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It’s a scenario which they didn’t address.

Were the Catholics wrong? No. The church-state is like any other nation of the world and had the right to defend its citizens.

Were the Catholics wrong? Yes. The church-state treatment of its enemies is on the same level as Islams treatment of its enemies.

Is there any case in history where you think Christians were justified in picking up the sword?

No.

 

[Riven]

The Catholics didn’t obey the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

The state, not the church, has the God-given role and responsibility of protecting its citizens.

Once the roles of church and state are mixed, we’re outside the bounds of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It’s a scenario which they didn’t address.

Were the Catholics wrong? No. The church-state is like any other nation of the world and had the right to defend its citizens.

Were the Catholics wrong? Yes. The church-state treatment of its enemies is on the same level as Islams treatment of its enemies.

So all we need is theocracy and then Christians gain the right to self defense.

 

[Matthias]

So all we need is theocracy and then Christians gain the right to self defense.

Christians already have the right to self-defense. It has to be done in accordance with the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

How did they defend themselves? (Not with the weapons of the world.) That’s the way the followers of Jesus may defend themselves.

 

[Riven]

Christians already have the right to self-defense. It has to be done in accordance with the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

How did they defend themselves? (Not with the weapons of the world.) That’s the way the followers of Jesus may defend themselves.

What do you think is going to happen to the may Christians in the military and elsewhere that use lethal force in self defense, or offensively in war?

 

[Matthias]

What do you think is going to happen to the may Christians in the military and elsewhere that use lethal force in self defense, or offensively in war?

They’ll answer to Jesus for not obeying his teaching.

 

[Triumph1300]

What do you think is going to happen to the may Christians in the military

Maybe they should not be in the army in the first place.

 

[Debp]

The Catholics gets a bad rep because of the crusades. I assume you think they were wrong for defending their territories from Islamic expansion? Is there any case in history where you think Christians were justified in picking up the sword?

I understand that The Crusades took a long time to come about, after much torture, rape, kidnapping and murder by the Muslim invaders.

 

[Matthias]

The Catholics gets a bad rep because of the crusades.

How much have you read about the Crusades?

The Crusaders killed Jews, Muslims, Catholics and Byzantine Christians; men, women and children. They raped, they pillaged, they tortured, they tried to force conversions. They earned their bad reputation -> doing to their enemies - and then some - what their enemies did to them.

Jesus and the apostles didn’t teach them to treat their enemies that way. Jesus and the apostles didn’t treat their enemies that way.

And they ultimately failed.

Knock. Knock.

The Muslims are back. Have we learned anything?

 

[Matthias]

@Riven I invite you to watch this one minute clip.

What we’re seeing here is the veneration of relics (specifically, the skull of a woman who lived in the 3rd century) by the Catholic Church.

Pope Leo XIV Sends Cardinal Parolin to Catania for 900th Anniversary of Saint Agatha’s Relics – EWTN Great Britain

ewtn.co.uk

It isn’t New Testament Christianity.

The Crusaders fought to defend the practice.

What do you think about it?

 

[Matthias]

 

[markalan]

Im on disability. Having sleep issues. I wake up several times a night and I have started seeing things. There’s a word for it, when part of your brain is still asleep.
Last night I saw my wife, she yelled my name then disappeared. Later I saw myself running toward me and pushing my chair back, then I felt something like two arms pushing down on me. It’s kind of scary. I called on Jesus to stop it.

I don't want to derail this thread, but just to let you know that I found it helpful to realize my similar symptoms have a natural explanation.

Hypnopompia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[markalan]

What do you think is going to happen to the may Christians in the military and elsewhere that use lethal force in self defense, or offensively in war?

If they have fulfilled their duty with integrity, I believe they will be rewarded by God for their courage in being willing to put their lives on the line to protect others.

I am not sure how God will judge those who misuse Scripture to undermine their commitment in fulfilling God's will for their lives.

My bias is that three generations of my family have served in the Australian Army or Reserve Army.

John 15:12-13
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Riven]

View attachment 88600

This doesn't contradict the idea that defending yourself, your family, or even your nation, is a moral and civic duty.

 

[Debp]

This doesn't contradict the idea that defending yourself, your family, or even your nation, is a moral and civic duty.

Riven you might find this video interesting. Raymond Ibrahim is a Christian of Egyptian ancestry. He is a historian and writes books about the Crusades and why they happened.

If you think about it, if the Crusaders hadn't pushed back the Muslim invaders, Europe would have been overtaken by Islam. North Africa, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey used to be Christian nations.

 

[Matthias]

This doesn't contradict the idea that defending yourself, your family, or even your nation, is a moral and civic duty.

Did Jesus and the apostles defend the Roman Empire? Was it their “moral civic duty” to do so?

If you want to kill your enemies, go and do it. Jesus and the apostles didn’t, nor did they teach the followers of Jesus to do it.

You would kill Christians serving in the military of other nations, and they would kill you.

 

[Riven]

Did Jesus and the apostles defend the Roman Empire? Was it their “moral civic duty” to do so?

No. Because the Roman Empire was an occupying force.