The Gospel And The Inner And Outer Man

[BarneyFife]

Nuts and bolts here. What is it? Why aren't we getting it? Why do we argue and insult and condemn, when we know that's not what we're supposed to be doing? What are we missing?

I have a strict policy against calling into question others' standing with God into question. But I know there are varying degrees to this offense. And I know that I sometimes venture too close to what I profess to hate.

Maybe we should confess our faults one to another more often. I just, in the last few days went too far in a thread about the Sabbath. Big surprise, huh?

The thread was, no question about it, calculated to agitate and antagonize Sabbath-keepers. In fact, the author of the OP had started no less than -5- such threads within the space of 10 days. That right there should have told me he was trying to get my goat. And it did. But I let myself go to war, anyway.

If it weren't for Sister @stunnedbygrace I'd probably still be over there hollering.

What're we gonna do?

I'm talking about growth in Christian Spirituality, here.

Why, oh why, do I fall time and time again.

I would concede that it's my agenda if I didn't know so many people with the same agenda who don't carry on as I do.

Most folks here have an agenda. I admit I do. My activity here is not seasoned with the fruit of the Spirit... at least, not usually.

Are there any agendas worth having? Could it be that some of us (my hand is raised right now) are letting the Good News take a back seat to peripherals that we're peddling?

What is the key to bringing ourselves to allow God to do what He wants to do with our inner and outer men?

I started this thread in this forum for a reason.

It's not a Bible Study, Christian Debate, Christion Theology, Apologetics, Fellowship, Prayer, or Praise-oriented issue I'm suggesting should be addressed. Although I realize that these concerns are bound, and rightly so, to overlap fairly often.

What if we prayed for each other, studied the Bible together, praised and thanked God for His unutterable love together, gave testimony to God's faithfulness together, marveled at His beautiful character as displayed in His word together all in one or more threads at the same time.

Would anyone object to that as being off-topic?

Anyhoo, whaddya think, everybody?

How do we avail ourselves of the proper working of the Gospel on the inner and outer man?

Please please, PLEASE!! No impassioned debate!

.

 

[marks]

Firstly I think we need to be able to understand and identify within ourselves when we are functioning from flesh and when from spirit. The person who is impatient and harsh as they are posting may be thinking they are doing the Lord's will, but impatience and harshness are not spiritual fruit, and therefore are not what the Spirit is doing.

And what are we instigating? I cringe when I look in on my pre-trib thread, and then jump in to participate again. I started that thread being bored one day, and just 'knew' that would fill some empty hours, but was that the right way?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Nuts and bolts here. What is it? Why aren't we getting it? Why do we argue and insult and condemn, when we know that's not what we're supposed to be doing? What are we missing?

I have a strict policy against calling into question others' standing with God into question. But I know there are varying degrees to this offense. And I know that I sometimes venture too close to what I profess to hate.

Maybe we should confess our faults one to another more often. I just, in the last few days went too far in a thread about the Sabbath. Big surprise, huh?

The thread was, no question about it, calculated to agitate and antagonize Sabbath-keepers. In fact, the author of the OP had started no less than -5- such threads within the space of 10 days. That right there should have told me he was trying to get my goat. And it did. But I let myself go to war, anyway.

If it weren't for Sister @stunnedbygrace I'd probably still be over there hollering.

What're we gonna do?

I'm talking about growth in Christian Spirituality, here.

Why, oh why, do I fall time and time again.

I would concede that it's my agenda if I didn't know so many people with the same agenda who don't carry on as I do.

Most folks here have an agenda. I admit I do. My activity here is not seasoned with the fruit of the Spirit... at least, not usually.

Are there any agendas worth having? Could it be that some of us (my hand is raised right now) are letting the Good News take a back seat to peripherals that we're peddling?

What is the key to bringing ourselves to allow God to do what He wants to do with our inner and outer men?

I started this thread in this forum for a reason.

It's not a Bible Study, Christian Debate, Christion Theology, Apologetics, Fellowship, Prayer, or Praise-oriented issue I'm suggesting should be addressed. Although I realize that these concerns are bound, and rightly so, to overlap fairly often.

What if we prayed for each other, studied the Bible together, praised and thanked God for His unutterable love together, gave testimony to God's faithfulness together, marveled at His beautiful character as displayed in His word together all in one or more threads at the same time.

Would anyone object to that as being off-topic?

Anyhoo, whaddya think, everybody?

How do we avail ourselves of the proper working of the Gospel on the inner and outer man?

Please please, PLEASE!! No impassioned debate!

.

Where are we going and how is it be opposed to where God would like for us to be going?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing." Jerem 10:23-24

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nuts and bolts here. What is it? Why aren't we getting it? Why do we argue and insult and condemn, when we know that's not what we're supposed to be doing? What are we missing?

I have a strict policy against calling into question others' standing with God into question. But I know there are varying degrees to this offense. And I know that I sometimes venture too close to what I profess to hate.

Maybe we should confess our faults one to another more often. I just, in the last few days went too far in a thread about the Sabbath. Big surprise, huh?

The thread was, no question about it, calculated to agitate and antagonize Sabbath-keepers. In fact, the author of the OP had started no less than -5- such threads within the space of 10 days. That right there should have told me he was trying to get my goat. And it did. But I let myself go to war, anyway.

If it weren't for Sister @stunnedbygrace I'd probably still be over there hollering.

What're we gonna do?

I'm talking about growth in Christian Spirituality, here.

Why, oh why, do I fall time and time again.

I would concede that it's my agenda if I didn't know so many people with the same agenda who don't carry on as I do.

Most folks here have an agenda. I admit I do. My activity here is not seasoned with the fruit of the Spirit... at least, not usually.

Are there any agendas worth having? Could it be that some of us (my hand is raised right now) are letting the Good News take a back seat to peripherals that we're peddling?

What is the key to bringing ourselves to allow God to do what He wants to do with our inner and outer men?

I started this thread in this forum for a reason.

It's not a Bible Study, Christian Debate, Christion Theology, Apologetics, Fellowship, Prayer, or Praise-oriented issue I'm suggesting should be addressed. Although I realize that these concerns are bound, and rightly so, to overlap fairly often.

What if we prayed for each other, studied the Bible together, praised and thanked God for His unutterable love together, gave testimony to God's faithfulness together, marveled at His beautiful character as displayed in His word together all in one or more threads at the same time.

Would anyone object to that as being off-topic?

Anyhoo, whaddya think, everybody?

How do we avail ourselves of the proper working of the Gospel on the inner and outer man?

Please please, PLEASE!! No impassioned debate!

.

it’s too involved of a subject to even know where to start!
The outer man is the flesh/carnal/self protective man. I kind of see it in a way that comes close to what you said in the other thread. the flesh as a system of protections and walls surrounding and imprisoning the inner man. Defenses, hardness, toughness that protects your flesh against the flesh of others. Hard ground. Hard heart. Constant war. Defending self.
I sort of see us all as abused dogs, snarling and snapping to try to survive and scare others away who might try to take from us or maim or hurt us. We snap back out of fear at what others will do to us.

That’s the hard ground that seed falls on and springs up but then withers and languishes and needs plowing and softening in order to grow its roots deep enough to really begin to thrive. It’s the hard shell of protections and walls surrounding our heart, our inner man.

The outer man is who has to die so the new life implanted in us can break forth. He’s one of our three enemies of the world, the flesh and the devil.

And you have to come to hate your life before you will give it up. You begin by hating others. Then you see you hate yourself too and are only different than others by degrees sometimes but that you also are stuck in subjection to your flesh and it’s dictates.

 

[marks]

The Gospel, as I see it, is that being baptized into Christ, we've already endured death, and have already our spiritual resurrection. The outer man is no match for the inner man who chooses to live in trust in Jesus. The outer man will fight. The one of born of bondage persecutes the one born of the freewoman, born of promise. But it's only weapon is to lie, that "these lusts are yours", that, "these lusts must be fulfilled", that "these fears are real", that "without this I cannot live", whatever lie it tells.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And Barny, you did not lay a trap for someone else’s feet. You are not the one who did that. You didn’t start a thread/set a trap and lie in wait looking to capture anyone. But you did respond in kind after being baited over and over. It’s one of satans tactics to try to stir up our flesh with the flesh of someone else. And God allows it for our good, so we will become sick enough of the enemy of our own flesh that we want him dead. Let one of your enemies survive in the land and he will seek to overpower and control you and be a constant harassment to you.

And you’re in a farther and better place by Gods grace that your flesh distressed you whereas those other two or three men don’t even know satan is manipulating their flesh/pride/emotions.

 

[BarneyFife]

I sort of see us all as abused dogs, snarling and snapping to try to survive and scare others away who might try to take from us or maim or hurt us. We snap back out of fear at what others will do to us.

I really get this. Yet at the same time. I know that perfect love casts out all fear, so why don't I just lay hold on that Love and stop being afraid. Getting real here.

The outer man is who has to die so the new life implanted in us can break forth. He’s one of our three enemies of the world, the flesh and the devil.

I feel this, too. But, for me, as I'm sure you will agree, the dying has to go from the metaphorical illustration to, through the Spirit, mortifying the deeds of my body, that I may live unto God.

The only way I can see to accomplish this is to "die daily," probably at least 3 times if the example of Daniel is any indication. Did you know he is one of the very few main characters of the Bible of whom there is recorded no apparent sin?

I have a favorite Bible teacher (don't let that get around ) who is quick to remind his students that the Gospel doesn't change people by knowing about it, but only while they take time to think about it, kind of a "beholding Christ, we are changed from glory to glory" (loose paraphrasing here) or a "stirring up of (my pure mind?) by remembrance."

I'm putting it on me not to express selfishness but personal responsibility and absence of preachiness.

 

[quietthinker]

Nuts and bolts here. What is it? Why aren't we getting it? Why do we argue and insult and condemn, when we know that's not what we're supposed to be doing? What are we missing?

I have a strict policy against calling into question others' standing with God into question. But I know there are varying degrees to this offense. And I know that I sometimes venture too close to what I profess to hate.

Maybe we should confess our faults one to another more often. I just, in the last few days went too far in a thread about the Sabbath. Big surprise, huh?

The thread was, no question about it, calculated to agitate and antagonize Sabbath-keepers. In fact, the author of the OP had started no less than -5- such threads within the space of 10 days. That right there should have told me he was trying to get my goat. And it did. But I let myself go to war, anyway.

If it weren't for Sister @stunnedbygrace I'd probably still be over there hollering.

What're we gonna do?

I'm talking about growth in Christian Spirituality, here.

Why, oh why, do I fall time and time again.

I would concede that it's my agenda if I didn't know so many people with the same agenda who don't carry on as I do.

Most folks here have an agenda. I admit I do. My activity here is not seasoned with the fruit of the Spirit... at least, not usually.

Are there any agendas worth having? Could it be that some of us (my hand is raised right now) are letting the Good News take a back seat to peripherals that we're peddling?

What is the key to bringing ourselves to allow God to do what He wants to do with our inner and outer men?

I started this thread in this forum for a reason.

It's not a Bible Study, Christian Debate, Christion Theology, Apologetics, Fellowship, Prayer, or Praise-oriented issue I'm suggesting should be addressed. Although I realize that these concerns are bound, and rightly so, to overlap fairly often.

What if we prayed for each other, studied the Bible together, praised and thanked God for His unutterable love together, gave testimony to God's faithfulness together, marveled at His beautiful character as displayed in His word together all in one or more threads at the same time.

Would anyone object to that as being off-topic?

Anyhoo, whaddya think, everybody?

How do we avail ourselves of the proper working of the Gospel on the inner and outer man?

Please please, PLEASE!! No impassioned debate!

.

It's no mystery Barney.....Folk debate the issues which capture their imagination.

What is most noticeable when I read the Gospel accounts and the subsequent letters is that the disciples were captured by the resurrected Jesus....he was their subject right left and centre.

Jesus cannot be presented if one does not know him....it's as basic as that.
One can thrash around in the religious pool infinitum all the while paying lip service to Jesus yet not knowing him.
It's the lack of knowing which stands out to me from the majority of posts on this forum.

 

[BarneyFife]

And Barny, you did not lay a trap for someone else’s feet. You are not the one who did that. You didn’t start a thread/set a trap and lie in wait looking to capture anyone. But you did respond in kind after being baited over and over. It’s one of satans tactics to try to stir up our flesh with the flesh of someone else. And God allows it for our good, so we will become sick enough of the enemy of our own flesh that we want him dead. Let one of your enemies survive in the land and he will seek to overpower and control you and be a constant harassment to you.

And you’re in a farther and better place by Gods grace that your flesh distressed you whereas those other two or three men don’t even know satan is manipulating their flesh/pride/emotions.

Well, you know I appreciate your encouragement and support, but I ought to esteem others better than myself—not just those with whom I agree. I think I should have backed away long ago. And there's always 1 Thessalonians 5:15. I know what RD is about here. I have seen people who have been here a long, long time quite readily dismiss and dispatch him. There is, on the other hand (I guess), something about starting -5- threads on the same such topic in the space of 10 days that seems almost like cyber-bullying to me. And yet I can't shake off the conviction that I indulged, rather than engaged, in controversy.

My family constantly upbraid me for indulging in self-flagellation, but I do take some time to bask in the love of Christ. I am grateful that while I was His enemy He was slain for me. And I know He forgives me. And just now, it occurs to me that I might actually have done harm to RD by egging him on so. Welcome to my mind.

But the LORD knows all about it.

An old Swiss missionary I once knew used to say that a lot. He canvassed central Europe right after WWII. He said "You think it's tough here in America. You should have seen what it was like working door-to-door in postwar France."

God is good, and we... not so much.

 

[BarneyFife]

And you’re in a farther and better place by Gods grace that your flesh distressed you whereas those other two or three men don’t even know satan is manipulating their flesh/pride/emotions.

The more I read this, the more I get it. I tend to downplay the fact that conviction is alive and focus on the resistance my flesh puts up. Like, right there, it was hard for me to say "my flesh" rather than just "me." I want to take uber-credit for any wrong thought or deed I have or do, respectively. I think it's just the old covenant trying to rise up in me. It's crazy because I can't pay for my own sin without dying the second death. Actually, that doesn't even cover it. Even if I were lost, Christ still paid for my probation. Heavy.

And I know where your heart is here. But for me to adopt this view on my own behalf, even with the "by God's grace" qualifier would be to assume the Pharisee part in the parable. Does that make sense? I can't go to the "farther and better place." I have to go to the Cross. Again and again. It's good there, though. I love it there.

Watch this:

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, “The Father Himself loveth you.” John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.


The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.
Steps To Christ—EGW—PP 64, 65

That's my kind of assurance of salvation.



.

 

[BarneyFife]

It's no mystery Barney.....Folk debate the issues which capture their imagination.

What is most noticeable when I read the Gospel accounts and the subsequent letters is that the disciples were captured by the resurrected Jesus....he was their subject right left and centre.

Jesus cannot be presented if one does not know him....it's as basic as that.
One can thrash around in the religious pool infinitum all the while paying lip service to Jesus yet not knowing him.
It's the lack of knowing which stands out to me from the majority of posts on this forum.

Do you emphasize the resurrection for any reason? Just curious.

.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I really get this. Yet at the same time. I know that perfect love casts out all fear, so why don't I just lay hold on that Love and stop being afraid. Getting real here.

Because the flesh wars with the Spirit until it is put under a mans feet.
But after you have suffered a little while, He will confirm, strengthen and establish you.

He is always working. He is doing so many things for you and in you simultaneously that you don’t see while He is doing them. You catch glimpses later, but He is surrounded by thick clouds. We only see the fringes (edges) of His ways. We are constantly caught by surprise and say later, oh my gosh, God was in this place or in this thing and I didn’t even know it…
He gives us and tells us and shows us what we are able to bear any given day and moment. He knows what pace to go, how to lead us next, how to heal our hurts and calm our fears. And His hand is very gentle on us but feels like a heavy horror at times because we’re in the dark while He works. Dark clouds surround Him. It kind of makes sense. The bright light of the sun is actually not touching us as brutally when it’s covered by clouds and in very bright light, our eyes are weakened, overpowered, and we can’t see as clearly as we do when there are a few clouds and our eyes aren’t weakened by so bright a light. We don’t have to squint. I don’t know if that will make sense to you or not.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, you know I appreciate your encouragement and support, but I ought to esteem others better than myself—not just those with whom I agree. I think I should have backed away long ago. And there's always 1 Thessalonians 5:15. I know what RD is about here. I have seen people who have been here a long, long time quite readily dismiss and dispatch him. There is, on the other hand (I guess), something about starting -5- threads on the same such topic in the space of 10 days that seems almost like cyber-bullying to me. And yet I can't shake off the conviction that I indulged, rather than engaged, in controversy.

You are to esteem others as better than yourself? So…humbleness is saying Hitler was better than yourself? I know which verse you are referring to, I’m just not sure you have a correct balance of it that gives understanding.

Paul esteemed the other apostles as better than himself and himself least of all but he had a reason for it, some self examination and that he had killed His brothers and sisters prior to his encounter with God.

I think you don’t have a balance on that verse.

And the thing that happened in that thread was that you didn’t see satans tactic and he pulled you into it by stirring up your outer man. That makes you exactly like us, not better or worse. We all fall for his tactics in the flesh. Until we no longer do. But until our flesh is put under us, I believe it’s best to not knowingly enter places where we know our outer man will be stirred up. Just don’t go there. Wait for Him to put that enemy under your feet and then reassess if you want to go those places. But now that you are onto this tactic of satan, and now that you aren’t ignorant of it, you should have an easier time of it. You should be able to extricate yourself if you find your feet slipping. You see who the enemy is. It isn’t those manipulated men. You see who the real bully is. It’s the one doing the manipulations while keeping hidden. You will come to actually pray for your enemies when you see what a horror they are in.

I should get off this soap box. Blessed by God are your eyes because you see this more clearly now. Flesh and blood are not who we war against. It’s the greatest ruse that a narcissist hides while pulling strings and makes us think they are the enemy when they don’t even know what they’re doing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I want to take uber-credit for any wrong thought or deed I have or do, respectively.

Yes, I see what your family sees, the self flagellation. It’s best not to do that. It won’t change you. We are who we are. We will remain who we are until we stop fretting over what we are and trying so hard to not be who we are and just go to God for more grace to overcome. You can’t finish anything by your own strength. That will only keep you stuck. It’s all done, from start to finish by God. Can a leopard change his spots? No, but he can drive himself crazy if he tries.

Maybe some men could do with more sackcloth and ashes/ self flagellation. You have seen what you are though. I think a bit of pride has you and is keeping you from saying, this is what I am, this is who I am, what will you do about this Lord? You must give me victory over this enemy, who is me, or I will never have victory but just continual mourning and harassment. You are weak and needy. Weak and needy men ask for what they lack.

My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.10 Therefore I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in distresses, in persecutions, in difficulties, in behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[BarneyFife]

Because the flesh wars with the Spirit until it is put under a mans feet.
But after you have suffered a little while, He will confirm, strengthen and establish you.

He is always working. He is doing so many things for you and in you simultaneously that you don’t see while He is doing them. You catch glimpses later, but He is surrounded by thick clouds. We only see the fringes (edges) of His ways. We are constantly caught by surprise and say later, oh my gosh, God was in this place or in this thing and I didn’t even know it…
He gives us and tells us and shows us what we are able to bear any given day and moment. He knows what pace to go, how to lead us next, how to heal our hurts and calm our fears. And His hand is very gentle on us but feels like a heavy horror at times because we’re in the dark while He works. Dark clouds surround Him. It kind of makes sense. The bright light of the sun is actually not touching us as brutally when it’s covered by clouds and in very bright light, our eyes are weakened, overpowered, and we can’t see as clearly as we do when there are a few clouds and our eyes aren’t weakened by so bright a light. We don’t have to squint. I don’t know if that will make sense to you or not.

It's like I'm talking to myself.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

Maybe some men could do with more sackcloth and ashes/ self flagellation. You have seen what you are though. I think a bit of pride has you and is keeping you from saying, this is what I am, this is who I am, what will you do about this Lord? You must give me victory over this enemy, who is me, or I will never have victory but just continual mourning and harassment. You are weak and needy. Weak and needy men ask for what they lack.

I see it as a process. I didn't have an epiphany in RD's thread or anything like that. But as you say, Christ is always working, nevertheless.

It’s all done, from start to finish by God. Can a leopard change his spots? No, but he can drive himself crazy if he tries.

It's a lot like the Hebrew Sanctuary service. The sinner places his hands on the head of the innocent sacrifice and confesses his sins. After that, everything is up to the High Priest. And we have such an High Priest...

.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you emphasize the resurrection for any reason? Just curious.

.

The resurrection Barney, is my assurance death is defeated. I have a living hope. The resurrection tells me God can do the impossible.

 

[BarneyFife]

The resurrection Barney, is my assurance death is defeated. I have a living hope. The resurrection tells me God can do the impossible.

To be sure, but what of Calvary? "And I, if I be lifted up..."

.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I see it as a process. I didn't have an epiphany in RD's thread or anything like that. But as you say, Christ is always working, nevertheless.

lol. It’s coming. You don’t get attacked and bullied in that particular manner unless “someone” is having a real fit over something they see but you haven’t yet.

 

[BarneyFife]

lol. It’s coming. You don’t get attacked and bullied in that particular manner unless “someone” is having a real fit over something they see but you haven’t yet.

So, what's coming? Let me in on it.

.