The Gospel Plus Nothing

[Randy Kluth]

While we do indeed have the flesh to deal with, it must be crucified to inherit eternal life. Nothing defiled will enter the Kingdom of God.

Romans 6
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (KJV)

James 1
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (KJV)

Sin = death. Obedience = life eternal.

Yes, good point. We're not perfect by our own record, but we do participate in doing righteousness *through Christ.* By choosing to live righteous in him we qualify for his atonement, for justification.

What made Christ the basis of both our righteousness and our atonement is the fact that he put the Old Man to death. This means that in choosing Christ we choose to walk by the ways of the Spirit, as opposed to the ways of the flesh. When we choose Christ we agree that the entirety of the carnal man is condemned. So when we do wrong we admit it and repent of it.

But those who think that they can do some spiritual good things but embrace other items of the "flesh" as if it is okay, that is a red flag. Has such a person really accepted Christ as he really is? Could this just be an aborted spiritual experience?

After all, the author of Hebrews indicates that people can experience the things of Christ and yet fall away. That is what I call an "aborted New Birth." I don't think such a person has any more interest in Christ than what Christ can do for him. He has not really made Christ his Lord.

Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How are you doing living by his image and after his likeness, which is law? The law demands absolute perfection.

What "law" are you talking about--the Law of Moses or law in general? Do you believe Christians are called to lawlessness? We are not called to perfection but to righteous living through Christ, whose perfection provided for our atonement.

Are you perfect? How does the atoning sacrifice of Jesus make us righteous? Where is the scripture that says that? This is what the scripture says, "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Faith counts for righteousness.

Faith is directed to Christ, whose perfect obedience provides righteousness to us in the form of a renewed spiritual life, a life that had been in bondage to condemnation and death. What this means in a practical sense is that we can not only do right, but we can also enjoy an unbroken relationship with God through the grace provided by Christ. We can not only continue in righteousness but we can also be assured that we have Eternal Life.

Righteousness for man has always been available through the word of God, which made man in His image. And so, the human conscience is perceptive and knows what is right to do, even though he may want to deny it and stamp it out.

But a man may try to follow his conscience by doing what seems good apart from a relationship with God, apart from His word. And that is what Christ came to condemn--a false righteousness, which isn't really righteousness at all.

It not only is a false righteousness but it is utterly unable to find justification with God. Today, following the word truthfully is a matter of abiding in Christ. And people may do this consciously or unconsciously, but righteousness only comes through him. It's much better to know him, though, because that brings both fellowship and awareness of truth.

 

[Robert Pate]

Good observation! Bad theology however. Paul confessed he was the chief of sinners. You can think that means that he continued to lead a sinful lifestyle....thus excusing one's own sins. OR, we can see Romans 7 as a testimony about his discovery of the power of grace to walk as Jesus walked...in Romans 8.

You have to realize that we divided the chapters and verses....but the letter to the Romans is all one continuous narrative. When you read of Jesus' crucifixion...do you stop at where He gave up the ghost?


No, Jesus had a mortal body like we do. You are thinking of an Adamic nature and weakness. The power of God empowers us to walk like Jesus...without sin...in the power of the Spirit in resurrection life.


Thinking one is something and being something is very different. Many are indoctrinated into claiming the things that Paul experienced and claimed...but not strangely these same people never claim to have been stoned, whipped and shipwrecked like Paul was. We can't trust those people. They will say whatever is religiously expedient in order to back up a claim of being justified.


We have a free sample of grace at regeneration. From there we need to go to God to be crucified with Christ...and raised to new life IN Him.

Jesus doesn't promise us better lives. Resurrection life is not just a renovation of Adamic power...all things are made new for those who are IN Christ.

There are two aspects to salvation. The physical and the spiritual. It is heresy to confuse these two.

Spiritually, Christians are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Physically they are sinners, Romans 3:10. A sinner is someone that has violated God's law. There are over 2,000 laws in the Old Testament, it is known as the book of the law. The law demands absolute perfection. James said that if you fail in one point of the law, you have failed the whole thing, James 2:10.

The law is spiritual. This is where your holiness theology will fail. The law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin? Have you ever lusted after a woman that is not your wife? If you have then you are guilty of fornication or adultery.

We are called to live our lives before God as sinners, saved sinners. We are always in need of grace and forgiveness. We have not arrived yet. Paul said that we press towards the high calling that is in Jesus Christ. He never said that he had finally arrived.

 

[Robert Pate]

What "law" are you talking about--the Law of Moses or law in general? Do you believe Christians are called to lawlessness? We are not called to perfection but to righteous living through Christ, whose perfection provided for our atonement.

Faith is directed to Christ, whose perfect obedience provides righteousness to us in the form of a renewed spiritual life, a life that had been in bondage to condemnation and death. What this means in a practical sense is that we can not only do right, but we can also enjoy an unbroken relationship with God through the grace provided by Christ. We can not only continue in righteousness but we can also be assured that we have Eternal Life.

Righteousness for man has always been available through the word of God, which made man in His image. And so, the human conscience is perceptive and knows what is right to do, even though he may want to deny it and stamp it out.

But a man may try to follow his conscience by doing what seems good apart from a relationship with God, apart from His word. And that is what Christ came to condemn--a false righteousness, which isn't really righteousness at all.

It not only is a false righteousness but it is utterly unable to find justification with God. Today, following the word truthfully is a matter of abiding in Christ. And people may do this consciously or unconsciously, but righteousness only comes through him. It's much better to know him, though, because that brings both fellowship and awareness of truth.

There is only one law, the law of Moses. All laws have come from the law of Moses. The law of Moses covers every aspect of one's life. The law of Moses demands absolute perfection or spiritual death. "The soul that sins must die" This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous no, not one" Romans 3:10.

We all stand before God's law as sinners in desperate need of a savior.

There is only one righteousness that God will accept and that is the righteousness of Christ. Paul wrote, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

This is why righteousness is only by faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:2-5.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is only one law, the law of Moses. All laws have come from the law of Moses. The law of Moses covers every aspect of one's life. The law of Moses demands absolute perfection or spiritual death. "The soul that sins must die" This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Not true--you're speaking Christianese. If you consult your nearby Dictionary you will see that the "Law of Moses" is any one of a number of applications of "law." It can utilize a technical definition and thus become a proper noun, the Law of Moses. Or it can be used in the general sense of a "law of nature," or a "civil or criminal law." It can be a colloquialism such as the "law of the jungle." Don't give me this, "there's only the Law of Moses!" I was perfectly clear about what I meant!

We all stand before God's law as sinners in desperate need of a savior.

Yes, before Christ all of mankind was condemned to eternal separation from God. And even Israel, who had a relationship with God, stood convicted of fatal sin and could not sustain their temporary relationship with God for eternity.

There is only one righteousness that God will accept and that is the righteousness of Christ. Paul wrote, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

This is why righteousness is only by faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:2-5.

I already said that all true righteousness comes through Christ. Are you trying to better my statement of the same?

 

[Robert Pate]

I guess the point I trying to make is that we don't read this as "Christ is the end of righteousness," or "Christ is the beginning of lawlessness." What we don't do is justify ourselves simply by doing good. We *must* embrace Christ as both our righteousness and our justification. But being our righteousness, we choose to be lawful *through him!*

We don't choose anything. God sees all that are "In Christ" as righteous, Colossians 2:10. All that we are required to do is believe it. In other words, play your position.

 

[Episkopos]

There are two aspects to salvation. The physical and the spiritual. It is heresy to confuse these two.

Spiritually, Christians are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Physically they are sinners, Romans 3:10. A sinner is someone that has violated God's law. There are over 2,000 laws in the Old Testament, it is known as the book of the law. The law demands absolute perfection. James said that if you fail in one point of the law, you have failed the whole thing, James 2:10.

We are not talking about the law of Moses but the law of God. To love others as Jesus loves. The whole law is made up by the two principle love commandments AND the one new law to love as Jesus loved.

You are making the grace error of spiritualizing truth away...according to the modern false gospel...so that makes grace of no effect whatsoever. The heresy is to deny the power of God. We are called to overcome as Jesus did...while in these mortal bodies. Your scheme destroys most of what the bible is about and the gospel is about.

With the blood of Christ sin goes into remission....in Him we are free from sin. Read the bible again with a proper meaning for words. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world...not excuse them.

The law is spiritual. This is where your holiness theology will fail.

And those who fulfill the law of God are spiritual people...no longer carnally minded but spiritually minded.

The law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin? Have you ever lusted after a woman that is not your wife? If you have then you are guilty of fornication or adultery.

Of course...you are speaking of the power of the flesh. But in Christ we walk by the Spirit not the flesh. The Spirit overcomes the flesh. If we walk in the Spirit we do not do what the flesh demands. Read Romans 8.

We are called to live our lives before God as sinners, saved sinners. We are always in need of grace and forgiveness.

You are confusing grace and forgiveness. Grace is the power of God us-ward who believe. Forgiveness is God's mercy on whoever He wills.

We have not arrived yet. Paul said that we press towards the high calling that is in Jesus Christ. He never said that he had finally arrived.

Here you are confusing grace with a full maturity. Grace teaches us to be perfected in character. Only grace can do this. We are called into the full stature of Christ with a grace power that is sufficient for that to happen.

 

[Robert Pate]

Not true--you're speaking Christianese. If you consult your nearby Dictionary you will see that the "Law of Moses" is any one of a number of applications of "law." It can utilize a technical definition and thus become a proper noun, the Law of Moses. Or it can be used in the general sense of a "law of nature," or a "civil or criminal law." It can be a colloquialism such as the "law of the jungle." Don't give me this, "there's only the Law of Moses!" I was perfectly clear about what I meant!

Yes, before Christ all of mankind was condemned to eternal separation from God. And even Israel, who had a relationship with God, stood convicted of fatal sin and could not sustain their temporary relationship with God for eternity.

I already said that all true righteousness comes through Christ. Are you trying to better my statement of the same?

All laws have evolved through the law of Moses, even the law of the land. You can call it whatever you want, but it is still the law of Moses.

Saying that all true righteousness comes through Christ is a broad statement. There are 1.2 billion Catholics that believe righteousness comes from trying to be like Christ. Righteousness does not come from trying to be like Christ. Righteousness comes to those who have faith in Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Robert Pate]

We are not talking about the law of Moses but the law of God. To love others as Jesus loves. The whole law is made up by the two principle love commandments AND the one new law to love as Jesus loved.

You are making the grace error of spiritualizing truth away...according to the modern false gospel...so that makes grace of no effect whatsoever. The heresy is to deny the power of God. We are called to overcome as Jesus did...while in these mortal bodies. Your scheme destroys most of what the bible is about and the gospel is about.

With the blood of Christ sin goes into remission....in Him we are free from sin. Read the bible again with a proper meaning for words. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world...not excuse them.

And those who fulfill the law of God are spiritual people...no longer carnally minded but spiritually minded.




Of course...you are speaking of the power of the flesh. But in Christ we walk by the Spirit not the flesh. The Spirit overcomes the flesh. If we walk in the Spirit we do not do what the flesh demands. Read Romans 8.


You are confusing grace and forgiveness. Grace is the power of God us-ward who believe. Forgiveness is God's mercy on whoever He wills.

Here you are confusing grace with a full maturity. Grace teaches us to be perfected in character. Only grace can do this. We are called into the full stature of Christ with a grace power that is sufficient for that to happen.

The law of Moses and the Law of God are the same thing. God gave the law to Moses.

The spiritual law that searches the desires and the intent of the heart will condemn you in the judgment. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. This includes Christians. Christ is the Christians righteousness because he doesn't have any.

Our Adamic flesh has not been redeemed yet. We will be changed when Jesus arrives, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" 1 Corinthians 15:53. Paul says that we are corruptible and that we need to be changed.

You are trying to bring the not yet into the now.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We don't choose anything. God sees all that are "In Christ" as righteous, Colossians 2:10. All that we are required to do is believe it. In other words, play your position.

If you don't choose anything, you're no better than a mannikin. Of course you choose to do good or bad. Why else would Paul ask you to behave like a Christian? Is it because you have no ability to comply?

James argued that the Devil believes but remains unrighteous. Believing must be directed to Christ in such a way that one is willing to live by who he is, as Lord, as our righteousness, and as our God.

 

[amigo de christo]

The purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Under the New Covenant everything changed. All rules, laws and religion have been abolished, Ephesians 2:15, but only for Christians. Under the New Covenant the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17.

Abraham had true faith . IF GOD said something abraham actually believed it .
So here is some food for thought . How come when JESUS said many things do many often choose to not believe
some things . I mean Why sit under men who twist HIS teachings and believe the men who twist them .
Cause that didnt bode well for ol adam and eve .
Remember .
GOD had said NOT to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden , the knowledge of good and evil .
For in the day you eat thereof ye shall SURELY DIE .
But along comes the serpent and says NAY , nay ye shall not die . They chose to BELIEVE the serpent over GOD .
JESUS said go and preach the gospel to all
those who hear and believe shall be saved
those who believe not shall be damned . ONLY TODAYS men holler NAY NAY they wont be damned ...........
WHO WE GONNA BELEIVE men of today , OR JESUS . ex and xactly . THIS LAMB BELIEVETH JESUS .

 

[Episkopos]

The law of Moses and the Law of God are the same thing. God gave the law to Moses.

This is dead wrong. The law of God remains in effect....not one jot or tittle is lost until the end. Read what Jesus says.

The spiritual law that searches the desires and the intent of the heart will condemn you in the judgment. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. This includes Christians. Christ is the Christians righteousness because he doesn't have any.

Again false. You badly need instruction in righteousness. Taking one verse out of context leads to error and then heretical teachings.

Our Adamic flesh has not been redeemed yet. We will be changed when Jesus arrives, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" 1 Corinthians 15:53. Paul says that we are corruptible and that we need to be changed.

You are trying to bring the not yet into the now.

You are not your corruptible body. You are a soul. Again, you need more instruction.

 

[Robert Pate]

If you don't choose anything, you're no better than a mannikin. Of course you choose to do good or bad. Why else would Paul ask you to behave like a Christian? Is it because you have no ability to comply?

James argued that the Devil believes but remains unrighteous. Believing must be directed to Christ in such a way that one is willing to live by who he is, as Lord, as our righteousness, and as our God.

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce good works and make the new believer a witness for Christ and his Gospel. It is all of God, Ephesians 2:10.

In Paul's congregation there were a lot of people that were trying to be justified by laws, rules and religion. They were counterfeits.

 

[Robert Pate]

This is dead wrong. The law of God remains in effect....not one jot or tittle is lost until the end. Read what Jesus says.


Again false. You badly need instruction in righteousness. Taking one verse out of context leads to error and then heretical teachings.

You are not your corruptible body. You are a soul. Again, you need more instruction.

We are corruptible because we have been born after Adam. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. You apparently don't believe Paul. Paul said that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. He also said that Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, because there is no law, Romans 8:1-2. Under the New Covenant God's law is written on the Christians heart by the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10. The old Covenant of Law was abolished. The Holy Spirit prompts and encourages the Christian to do what is right. There is no condemnation if he fails.

 

[Robert Pate]

This is dead wrong. The law of God remains in effect....not one jot or tittle is lost until the end. Read what Jesus says.


Again false. You badly need instruction in righteousness. Taking one verse out of context leads to error and then heretical teachings.

You are not your corruptible body. You are a soul. Again, you need more instruction.

Holiness religion tries to do in the flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. We are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

You need to accept what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce good works and make the new believer a witness for Christ and his Gospel. It is all of God, Ephesians 2:10.

In Paul's congregation there were a lot of people that were trying to be justified by laws, rules and religion. They were counterfeits.

I agree that there are counterfeits who attempt "self-justification." They try to do good *apart from Christ.* This is the problem.

However, it creates a whole different problem to say we don't make choices. Of course we make choices! We make them every day. We make them when we choose to accept Christ. We make them when we choose to obey Christ. Why over-complicate this? Making right choices is *not* self-justification.

 

[Episkopos]

Holiness religion tries to do in the flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.

Holiness religion as you call it is recognizing what God has made available to us in Jesus Christ. This is entered into by grace through faith...by the gift of the Spirit empowering the weakness of the flesh through divine power (grace).

Your scheme denies the power of God...which is anathema according to Paul.

We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. We are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Imagination is a powerful drug. We KNOW we have been reconciled to God because we are walking in a supernatural strength...called grace.

You need to accept what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

That is a false rest...or the "Emperor's new clothes" of rest. Rather we are to seek to enter into His rest in order to walk in His supernatural love and power.

 

[Episkopos]

We are corruptible because we have been born after Adam. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. You apparently don't believe Paul.

Quite the opposite. You misunderstand his points. No one can justify themselves by either what they do or what they believe. We are only justified IN Christ...but that is not something we spiritualize...rather it is according to grace...the power of a resurrection life.

Paul said that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. He also said that Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation.

Not at all. What has been abolished is the man made efforts of conformity to the law of Moses. This is about a unified faith in Christ...that actually makes men holy and Christ-like.

There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, because there is no law, Romans 8:1-2.

There is no condemnation for those who ARE in Christ because they are fulfilling the righteousness of the law by the power of life In Christ. Rom. 8:4

Under the New Covenant God's law is written on the Christians heart by the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10. The old Covenant of Law was abolished. The Holy Spirit prompts and encourages the Christian to do what is right. There is no condemnation if he fails.

We are condemned when we claim something that isn't true...just like the Pharisees did when they claimed to be following Moses...which they weren't. Same thing for modern believers and Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

Holiness religion as you call it is recognizing what God has made available to us in Jesus Christ. This is entered into by grace through faith...by the gift of the Spirit empowering the weakness of the flesh through divine power (grace).

Your scheme denies the power of God...which is anathema according to Paul.


Imagination is a powerful drug. We KNOW we have been reconciled to God because we are walking in a supernatural strength...called grace.

That is a false rest...or the "Emperor's new clothes" of rest. Rather we are to seek to enter into His rest in order to walk in His supernatural love and power.

The scripture does not say we have been reconciled unto God because we are walking in a supernatural strength called grace. Where does it say that?

What it says is, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

 

[Episkopos]

The scripture does not say we have been reconciled unto God because we are walking in a supernatural strength called grace. Where does it say that?

What it says is, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Are you saying the whole world is now reconciled...without faith?