The Gospel Plus Nothing

[Robert Pate]

I agree that there are counterfeits who attempt "self-justification." They try to do good *apart from Christ.* This is the problem.

However, it creates a whole different problem to say we don't make choices. Of course we make choices! We make them every day. We make them when we choose to accept Christ. We make them when we choose to obey Christ. Why over-complicate this? Making right choices is *not* self-justification.

There are multitudes that claim that they are Christians, but they are not. To be saved you must have faith that Jesus has delivered you from your sins. Trying to be saved by the law, works or religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

 

[Robert Pate]

Are you saying the whole world is now reconciled...without faith?

You are Gospel illiterate. Of course, Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God. All that we have to do is accept it.

 

[Episkopos]

You are Gospel illiterate. Of course, Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God. All that we have to do is accept it.

I am literate, logical, reasonable and well informed. The whole world means that all men have access into the calling in Christ.

God also so loved the world. That doesn't mean that many won't be cast into the lake of fire. This means that salvation has moved beyond the barrier of a physical Israel. Spiritual Israel is now available to all.

 

[marks]

It is apparent that you believe in a holiness theology. Most holiness people believe that they can stop sinning because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Paul never taught a holiness theology. Paul confessed that he was a sinner and struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we will sin. We still have Adam's sinful nature and we still have Adam's blood flowing through our veins, even though we know that we have been crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6. We only have the "First fruits of the Spirit" Romans 8:23. Which is the down payment. When we become totally sanctified in Jesus Christ then we will be perfect as he is perfect. That has not happened yet but will happen when he appears, Colossians 3:4.

Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit we are able to live better lives than the unsaved. But we are still sinners, saved sinners. Jesus left us here on this earth in our Adamic bodies so that we can reach others for Christ. Paul said, "I can be all things to all men that I might win some".

Hi Robert,

I like what you have to say! One thing I'd mention . . . I'd not be one to say that we WILL sin so long as we are in these bodies. I consider it likely, but not necessary, and God makes provision that we through faith may overcome the flesh. But don't misunderstand me, I believe Scripture teaches that while we remain in our corruptible flesh there will always be a conflict with our spirit.

On this part,

"But we are still sinners, saved sinners."

I'd sooner say, we are the children of God, created in righteousness and true holiness, and we are to put of the sins of the flesh, and put on the new man. We are new creations living in the old flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are Gospel illiterate. Of course, Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God. All that we have to do is accept it.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:10-11 LITV
10) For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;
11) and not only so, but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation.

Plainly, God reconciled the world to Himself, and, it remains that we receive the reconciliation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are called to live our lives before God as sinners, saved sinners.

How do you think of rebirth? What is it? What happens?

I don't know if you'll want to take time for this, it's something I wrote some years ago . . .

Mind of the Spirit / Mind of the Flesh

Mind of the Spirit / Mind of the Flesh The question was recently asked, “What is the soul?”, and, along with this, “What is it that gets regenerated when someone is born again?” I am hoping this study may contribute towards answering these questions. To begin with, we’ll look at Romans...

www.christianityboard.com

Much love!

 

[marks]

Believing must be directed to Christ in such a way that one is willing to live by who he is, as Lord, as our righteousness, and as our God.

I'd sooner say, believing must be such as what God is looking for that He will then recreate us in new birth. And then we go on to live changed lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are corruptible because we have been born after Adam. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. You apparently don't believe Paul. Paul said that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. He also said that Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, because there is no law, Romans 8:1-2. Under the New Covenant God's law is written on the Christians heart by the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10. The old Covenant of Law was abolished. The Holy Spirit prompts and encourages the Christian to do what is right. There is no condemnation if he fails.

1 Timothy 1:6-11 LITV
6) from which having missed the mark, some turned aside to empty talking,
7) wishing to be teachers of law, neither understanding what they say, nor about that which they confidently affirm.
8) And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
9) knowing this, that Law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for lawless and undisciplined ones, for ungodly and sinful ones, for unholy and profane ones, for slayers of fathers and slayers of mothers, for murderers,
10) for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes sound doctrine,
11) according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I was entrusted.

Seems clear to me!

Much love!

 

[Robert Pate]

I am literate, logical, reasonable and well informed. The whole world means that all men have access into the calling in Christ.

God also so loved the world. That doesn't mean that many won't be cast into the lake of fire. This means that salvation has moved beyond the barrier of a physical Israel. Spiritual Israel is now available to all.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ.

As far as God is concerned Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits at the right hand of God as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, Revelation 19:16. This means that "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. All sin has been atoned for. All that have faith in Christ are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

 

[marks]

The scripture does not say we have been reconciled unto God because we are walking in a supernatural strength called grace. Where does it say that?

What it says is, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Yep! There's only one way we are justified, that is being baptized into Christ, to receive His reconciliation, and new life. And being justified in Christ, we cannot do a single thing to add to it.

We are not justified based on our behavior. Nothing we do or don't do has anything to do with our justification other than believing in Jesus, receiving Him. When God justifies us, baptizing us into Christ, we are recreated to share in God's Own nature, and we go on to spend our lives being trained by Him to walk in that new nature, to walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are multitudes that claim that they are Christians, but they are not. To be saved you must have faith that Jesus has delivered you from your sins. Trying to be saved by the law, works or religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

You appear to be oblivious to what I just said. Answer the point and don't repeat the same thing.

 

[Robert Pate]

Hi Robert,

I like what you have to say! One thing I'd mention . . . I'd not be one to say that we WILL sin so long as we are in these bodies. I consider it likely, but not necessary, and God makes provision that we through faith may overcome the flesh. But don't misunderstand me, I believe Scripture teaches that while we remain in our corruptible flesh there will always be a conflict with our spirit.

On this part,

"But we are still sinners, saved sinners."

I'd sooner say, we are the children of God, created in righteousness and true holiness, and we are to put of the sins of the flesh, and put on the new man. We are new creations living in the old flesh.

Much love!

It is the "old flesh" that is the problem. We know that the old Adam was crucified with Christ. Paul referred to his Adamic nature as "The body of death" Romans 7:25.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yep! There's only one way we are justified, that is being baptized into Christ, to receive His reconciliation, and new life. And being justified in Christ, we cannot do a single thing to add to it.

We are not justified based on our behavior. Nothing we do or don't do has anything to do with our justification other than believing in Jesus, receiving Him. When God justifies us, baptizing us into Christ, we are recreated to share in God's Own nature, and we go on to spend our lives being trained by Him to walk in that new nature, to walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

Right. I like Ephesians 2:10.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'd sooner say, believing must be such as what God is looking for that He will then recreate us in new birth. And then we go on to live changed lives.

Much love!

It's really an oddity that I've faced so much fear among fellow Christians to talk about their making "choices," as if in making a choice one is somehow operating "in the flesh," or acting outside of Christ, and therefore trying to justify himself? They say it's "Christ who must make the choice--not me," when in reality "grace" is defined as the willingness of Christ to operate *in us!*

Even non-Christians make choices, and that doesn't even mean they're attempting self-justification, in my opinion. Whether someone does genuine good things or not depends on whether he is operating in the word of God or not. And someone may not always know Christ and still be unconsciously operating by the word of God.

God's word is always in operation, and is always pursuing righteousness from Man. It is an operation in our conscience, in our spirit. We may not even know Christ and still have a sense of what's right.

That doesn't mean that the person who does good is justified unto Eternal Life. He may be justified as one who did good, but that does not automatically make him "saved," or justified with respect to Eternal Salvation. It is one thing to do right, and another thing entirely to get "saved!"

To be saved one must make the right choice for Christ, and then make that choice abundantly obvious that he is embracing all that Christ represents, including the death to our old independent ways and living only by the word of Christ. So one in accepting Christ not only accepts Salvation but also the life of Christ by which we receive that.

We of course do not have to be perfect to be saved, but we *must* make a valid choice for Christ, or forever remain "unjustified." We are not "saved" just because a perfect Christ lives in us, but also because we have made a choice to live by the word of that perfect Christ, regardless of our flaws.

 

[Robert Pate]

You appear to be oblivious to what I just said. Answer the point and don't repeat the same thing.

Sorry. I didn't mean to slight you. Which post are you referring to?

 

[marks]

We of course do not have to be perfect to be saved, but we *must* make a valid choice for Christ, or forever remain "unjustified." We are not "saved" just because a perfect Christ lives in us, but also because we have made a choice to live by the word of that perfect Christ, regardless of our flaws.

So then we are saved by a combination of Christ's presence within us, and also by our determination to obey. Is that the idea? And if we don't have that determination to obey, even though Christ lives in us, we are not "saved". Am I following you correctly?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry. I didn't mean to slight you. Which post are you referring to?

#36. Yes, sometimes the context is lost. You seemed to be arguing against "human choice." It's self-evident that that is wrong.

However, Martin Luther argued against Free Will by claiming that it is in bondage to sin and cannot choose right. Raised a Lutheran I well understand what he meant, though I disagree with him. He is arguing against self-justification.

Sinful Man can still make good choices, including the choice to receive Christ. Doing right doesn't save, but in accepting Christ we can choose for Salvation and be saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

It's really an oddity that I've faced so much fear among fellow Christians to talk about their making "choices," as if in making a choice one is somehow operating "in the flesh," or acting outside of Christ, and therefore trying to justify himself? They say it's "Christ who must make the choice--not me," when in reality "grace" is defined as the willing of Christ to operate *in us!*

Even non-Christians make choices, and that doesn't even mean they're attempting self-justification, in my opinion. Whether someone does genuine good things or not depends on whether he is operating in the word of God or not. And someone may not always know Christ and still be unconsciously operating by the word of God.

God's word is always in operation, and is always pursuing righteousness from Man. It is an operation in our conscience, in our spirit. We may not even know Christ and still have a sense of what's right.

That doesn't mean that the person who does good is justified unto Eternal Life. He may be justified as one who did good, but that does not automatically make him "saved," or justified with respect to Eternal Salvation. It is one thing to do right, and another thing entirely to get "saved!"

To be saved one must make the right choice for Christ, and then make that choice abundantly obvious that he is embracing all that Christ represents, including the death to our old independent ways and living only by the word of Christ. So one in accepting Christ not only accepts Salvation but also the life of Christ by which we receive that.

We of course do not have to be perfect to be saved, but we *must* make a valid choice for Christ, or forever remain "unjustified." We are not "saved" just because a perfect Christ lives in us, but also because we have made a choice to live by the word of that perfect Christ, regardless of our flaws.

I agree. Back in the 70's there was a popular phrase going around, "Let go and let God". This made God responsible for all of the sins and the mistakes made by Christians. They could say, "Well I let go and let God" so whatever happens its God's fault.

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree that there are counterfeits who attempt "self-justification." They try to do good *apart from Christ.* This is the problem.

However, it creates a whole different problem to say we don't make choices. Of course we make choices! We make them every day. We make them when we choose to accept Christ. We make them when we choose to obey Christ. Why over-complicate this? Making right choices is *not* self-justification.

The scripture says, "Choose this day whom you will serve". We are called to make a choice. I am not a Calvinist. They believe that they didn't make a choice to accept Christ as their savior, instead, God choose them before the foundation of the world. This is not true because God is not a respecter of anyone's person.

 

[Robert Pate]

#36. Yes, sometimes the context is lost. You seemed to be arguing against "human choice." It's self-evident that that is wrong.

However, Martin Luther argued against Free Will by claiming that it is in bondage to sin and cannot choose right. Raised a Lutheran I well understand what he meant, though I disagree with him. He is arguing against self-justification.

Sinful Man can still make good choices, including the choice to receive Christ. Doing right doesn't save, but in accepting Christ we can choose for Salvation and be saved.

I am not sure that Martin Luther argued against free will. Martin Luther and John Calvin were not friends. John Calvin was in his early 20's when he came up with his predestination doctrine. Luther did not approve of it. (Conversations with Luther pp. 135 f.).