The Great Tribulation

[Saint]

I’m always some amused when we discuss the “Great Tribulation”; let me ask a question, how much more tribulation can one experience that to suffer and die? Seems to me that mankind has been experiencing that process since the beginning. I think our western minds have blindness because we for the most part have not experienced this kind of suffering. Maybe our problem is that we lack the sufficient trust in Yahweh that we should exhibit. Yeshua died for our salvation; do you think He experienced tribulation?

Oh and by the way, the “Great Tribulation” and Yahweh’s wrath are two different things. If we think otherwise we are confused and need to study His word a little more.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Trekson]

Saint, I agree that the great trib and God's wrath are two separate events, but do you consider Christ an alarmist? What does He tell us about it? Matt. 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." If Christ takes it that seriously, shouldn't we? In modern parlance, Worst. Time. Of. The. World. Ever!!

 

[shilohsfoal]

Saint, I agree that the great trib and God's wrath are two separate events, but do you consider Christ an alarmist? What does He tell us about it? Matt. 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." If Christ takes it that seriously, shouldn't we? In modern parlance, Worst. Time. Of. The. World. Ever!!

The war.

Daniel 12
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book —will be delivered. [sup]2 [/sup]Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. [sup]3 [/sup]Those who are wise[sup][a][/sup] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. [sup]4 [/sup]But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”


This time of distress does not take seven years nor does it take three and a half years.
The saints in Israel will have been in tribulation for three and half years before this war even starts.
The saints start being killed after the abomination of desolation is set up.
These are the saints being killed.

Daniel 11;
[sup] 33 [/sup]And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

The reason these saints undewrstand what the the antichrists in Israel who dont is because these saints are given the revelation of Jesus Christ which describes the abomination in detail.And it is at this time of the falling away of Babylon the great that the saints are imprisoned and killed.

Revelation 13;10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

As for me during that time.
Since Im not part of the beasts kingdom in Judea and the abomination is not here in NC .I need not worry about any of it.It doesnt concern me.

 

[Saint]

Saint, I agree that the great trib and God's wrath are two separate events, but do you consider Christ an alarmist? What does He tell us about it? Matt. 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." If Christ takes it that seriously, shouldn't we? In modern parlance, Worst. Time. Of. The. World. Ever!!

Hi Trekson...how dead is dead and for that matter what does it matter to those of us who are saved in Yeshua? In this life one of two things will occur; either I die (likely of some very unpleasant ordeal; my dear wife suffered 4 years of cancer) or I will be transformed into new life without going through the suffering; my fate is ordained already. My whole point is we are looking for something that will allows us to escape what is already occurring in the world today. The suffering that occurred in 70AD didn't effect any of those children of Yeshua, they escaped from Jerusalem and not a one lost their life so it is reported. The ones that suffered the tribulation was those who had rejected the Messiah,

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Hitch]

Saint, I agree that the great trib and God's wrath are two separate events, but do you consider Christ an alarmist? What does He tell us about it? Matt. 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." If Christ takes it that seriously, shouldn't we? In modern parlance, Worst. Time. Of. The. World. Ever!!

Really? Have you considered your addition requires that fewer than 8 souls survive?

 

[Saint]

Excellent point HItch...

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Trekson]

Hitch, Possibility #1 - In the generic view of the Great trib, death is the easy way out. The number of dead is irrelevant. How many of those souls will end up in hell is the most important aspects. Compared with the time of Noah, the amount of dead will greatly outnumber the amount in Noah's day, but it is their ultimate destination that we must keep in mind and try as hard as we can to reduce that number.

Possibility #2, the great trib is upon the church as my article states and could be the greatest wholesale slaughter, torment and torture of believers in the history of the world. Granted, to die is gain for the believer but that doesn't make it sunshine and lollipop time.

Either way they are Christ's words not mine and I believe He knew what He was talking about.

 

[veteran]

Hi Trekson...how dead is dead and for that matter what does it matter to those of us who are saved in Yeshua? In this life one of two things will occur; either I die (likely of some very unpleasant ordeal; my dear wife suffered 4 years of cancer) or I will be transformed into new life without going through the suffering; my fate is ordained already. My whole point is we are looking for something that will allows us to escape what is already occurring in the world today. The suffering that occurred in 70AD didn't effect any of those children of Yeshua, they escaped from Jerusalem and not a one lost their life so it is reported. The ones that suffered the tribulation was those who had rejected the Messiah,

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

It's a mistake to consider the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus foretold to mean absolute turmoil and destruction. That's not what it's going to be about.

It's going to be about a test to see if we will bow in false worship to another instead of Christ Jesus. The OT pattern for it is the time of Daniel. What was it that the false prophets used against Daniel and his fellows to try and trap them so they'd be killed for not bowing?

Those who fall away and bow to false messiah will not be under a tribulation of desctruction and torture. They're going to believe it's a time of "Peace and safety", thinking Christ had come.

 

[Saint]

It's a mistake to consider the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus foretold to mean absolute turmoil and destruction. That's not what it's going to be about.

It's going to be about a test to see if we will bow in false worship to another instead of Christ Jesus. The OT pattern for it is the time of Daniel. What was it that the false prophets used against Daniel and his fellows to try and trap them so they'd be killed for not bowing?

Those who fall away and bow to false messiah will not be under a tribulation of desctruction and torture. They're going to believe it's a time of "Peace and safety", thinking Christ had come.

You might be correct here Veteran but one method of testing is to create pressure upon those who claim to believe causing them to turn to another that claims to offer then peace and safety. Only those who have insight and faith will be able to discern the truth.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Hitch]

Hitch, Possibility #1 - In the generic view of the Great trib, death is the easy way out. The number of dead is irrelevant. How many of those souls will end up in hell is the most important aspects. Compared with the time of Noah, the amount of dead will greatly outnumber the amount in Noah's day, but it is their ultimate destination that we must keep in mind and try as hard as we can to reduce that number.

How do you know this?

Possibility #2, the great trib is upon the church as my article states and could be the greatest wholesale slaughter, torment and torture of believers in the history of the world. Granted, to die is gain for the believer but that doesn't make it sunshine and lollipop time.

The associated judgments all revolve around the treatment of Christ-the Landowner's Son. There is but a single generation in history capable of rejecting Christ in the face, and they are long since dead.

Either way they are Christ's words not mine and I believe He knew what He was talking about.

 

[Saint]

Zec 13:8-9 ESV In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. (9) And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

There are those who say these things happened in 70AD and perhaps they did but but if so it is only a foreshadowing of what will occur at the end of this age; remember not all Israel is Israel but it is the seeds of Jacob from which your seed will be counted.

No there will be great loss of life in the end as Yahweh refines His chosen!

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Hitch]

Zec 13:8-9 ESV In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. (9) And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

There are those who say these things happened in 70AD and perhaps they did but but if so it is only a foreshadowing of what will occur at the end of this age; remember not all Israel is Israel but it is the seeds of Jacob from which your seed will be counted.

No there will be great loss of life in the end as Yahweh refines His chosen!

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

What would be the point of historical judgment at the dawn of eternity?

And what crime compares to the Regicide?

 

[Saint]

Well it's not the dawn of eternity but rather the closing of an age; this age of grace. We still have the age of the millennium and the period of time when Satan is again released upon the world which is likely an age within it's self. These occur before eternity.

If in fact there is no time of refinement at the end of this age to separate the chosen what is all this conversation about?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

You might be correct here Veteran but one method of testing is to create pressure upon those who claim to believe causing them to turn to another that claims to offer then peace and safety. Only those who have insight and faith will be able to discern the truth.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Our Lord Jesus revealed that to us...

Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(KJV)

What kind of atmosphere would it have to be for a father to turn his own son in? or children to turn their parents in? Have we already had examples of that kind of thing in history? Yes. Communism and Nazi Germany.

I suspect that a loved one that is deceived to false messiah will think they're doing a good thing by turning in even a family member who refuses that messiah.

 

[LambOfChrist]

shilohsfoal

This thread is titled The Great Tribulation. However, you are one of the few that seems to have studied this earnestly. The great tribulation is only mentioned twice in the bible. Tribulation however, comes on everyone sometime during our life. Tribulation and the great tribulation should never be used in the same teaching accept to show the difference between them.

There will be tribulation in the US and in Canada and in South America and also the rest of the world at different times and with different measures, but the great tribulation is only after the abomination is set up as you have said. It may last as long as a year but could be shorter or longer. It is not written.

The great tribulation is caused because the King of the North of Daniel 11 is angry because of the 7 year covenant made between many nations. (I am convinced this is the EPNI that was signed in Jan 1 of 2007) He has knowledge that Israel is doing animal sacrifices and he squeals to the EU and the prince who made that covenant gives the order to the little horn of Daniel 8 who then surrounds Israel and takes away the daily sacrifice and oblation and sets up an idol (not himself) on the temple mount.

To accomplish this Jews, (not the Christians) all Jews will be forced out of Israel to Greece and many other nations. (Joel 3) This little horn is Muslim. He is out of one of the 4 areas that Alexander the Great’s 4 generals ruled. (My money is on Jordan for reasons I will not say at this time) Can you not imagine the great tribulation that this will bring upon the Jews whom Islam has sworn in the last few years to eradicate?

How long will this take. Maybe about a year. When this is over they(the gentiles including Islam) will cry peace and safety at last. Then AFTER the tribulation sudden destruction will come upon them. The asteroid of Isaiah 13, Joel 2, Matthew 24, Mark, Luke and Revelation 8 will come crashing down. The moon will be turned to blood and the sun will be darkened. Then, (when?) then they shall see the son of man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and he will send his angels to gather the elect…

Jesus will go away at this time and allow Armageddon. Then he will return and stop the war and set up his kingdom.

There is much missing in the understanding that still must be brought to light before all of this makes sense. Be patient. It is coming, one piece at a time. The beast will not sit in the temple until just before the Lord comes to gather his elect and you will not know who he is until that time unless God chooses. He is not the little horn.

There are 4 who are taught by most to be one and the beast. But that is a different topic.

There are those who will come out of great tribulation. These will survive the attack that is poured out against Israel after the abomination is set up.

Sure there will be a civil war in the US soon, but it is nothing compared to the tribulation that the Jews will suffer at the hands of Islam when every nation joins together to remove them from their land. But they will have the last laugh when they realize that Jesus is their Messiah and every one of them will cry out in love for their creator.