The Heaven Going Lie - Voting Results

[Hiddenthings]

Start with the plain statements, and work your way from there to the less plain. When Jesus says without any equivocation that all, whether alive or dead, live to God, there is no mistaking the meaning. When Jesus says just as clearly, that the one who lives and believes in Him will never die, Oh why will you not believe it?

It's not uncommon for people to place words into Jesus' mouth and make the same assumptions those who denied him made.

Paul wrote, better to depart and be with the Lord, there is no mistaking his expectation.

Another misinterpreted section of Scripture.

The first of many points is your assumption "to depart" means to be immediately with Christ. There is an irony about the truth of that which I'm not sure you are able to comprehend.

I could offer you a lot more evidence in addition to what you already have been given.

And on and on it goes, but you are very set in your view, and will not receive such plain statements. There is nothing more I can offer you as you will not receive the very plain teachings in the Bible.

Much love!

You mean your inferences may appear plain, but in reality, each passage needs to be considered in the light of the whole record, as we did with Acts and 2 Samuel 7. I know you can see the truth of these texts, but it will take much for you to perceive them fully in faith.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Heaven Going Lie

Hi @Marilyn C To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief. Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be...

www.christianityboard.com

Interesting we have 50 / 50 split on voting as to whether people believe they go to heaven when they die.

What are the implications for those who are wrong?

The “wrong” belief must have consequences in terms of how people live in this life - some view their walk as a probation in faith tested while others believe in automatic acceptance.

Would teaching about going to heaven have a greater impact on those who hold mistaken beliefs about the afterlife than on those who believe in the resurrection of the whole person?

If someone is wrong about going to heaven, this could provoke fear, anxiety, and urgent reflection, challenging their assumptions about salvation, judgment, and reward. If God were to raise them from the dead, they might become defensive, having neither fully known nor believed in this reality. If a person lived with false confidence and did not struggle to conform to Christ its possible they could be rejected as not knowing Christ and vice versa.

Conversely, if a person’s belief about going to heaven is correct, then the instant anyone faces this reality, their expectations regarding salvation or judgment would immediately be fulfilled, leaving no further uncertainty or anticipation.

I’m interested in people’s perspectives on how being right or wrong about the afterlife affects a believer’s life and the consequences of these beliefs.

Believing one way or the other may alter your disposition, the level of your hope, joy, strength in your faith.
Paul said, " to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord". Do you understand what that means? You possess a body, soul and spirit. When you separate the body that goes into the grave, your soul/spirit go the Lord. Paul desired to be with the Lord, but knew he must stay awhile longer firbiur sake. There is no waiting period ( til the end of time, at the Great Throne Judgment Day), you to go. That's an uninterrupted existence, a life that actually suffers no death as Jesus said, even if you die, you live. ( John 11:25-26) Do you understand those verse?
However, if a person believed they go to the grave and the soul/spirit sleeps for say a thousand years, he would be unconscious, so would awake when resurrected as if no time at all passed. Having this perception may not change your dispositon. ? I don't know, I don't have that perception and so I am not sure. Are these people that hold this view more negative in life, the glass is half empty, more devastated when someone dies, unsure of their salvation? Are they happy people with a strong faith? Do they have an exuberant fearless thrust to go forward through life and can look at death right in the face realizing its sting is gone and life in Christ actually means life in Christ and no separation at all?
Actually a more serious question is whether or not one could lose their salvation? I'm in the camp of OSAS and think those who do not possess this certainty are fearful, they have lots of doubts. I think their disposition, level of joy, hope, faith and love of life is effected by this belief. I know Jehovah Witnesses, (have lots in my family) who believe in soul sleep. They DO NOT believe in OSAS either. They have this fear, uncertainty of salvation. I say that fear is the opposite of faith. Faith is the certainty of things hoped for, the confidence of things not seen. Our faith is a gift. I've even read threads going on right now in doubt that faith itself is a gift. They do not understand Eph. 2:8

What one believes effects their life, their joy, hope, faith, their disposition.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Believing one way or the other may alter your disposition, the level of your hope, joy, strength in your faith.
Paul said, " to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord". Do you understand what that means?

Yes, can you show where it states immediately?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes, can you show where it states immediately?

I just did. To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.( 2 Cor. 5:8) Do you see a separation of time in that relationship?
Phil. 1:23; Luke 23:43; John 3:16, 5:24, 8:51, 11:25-26; Joshua 1:9. 1 Cor. 15:54-55; Psalm 23:4; Rom. 8:38-39; Hosea13:14; 1 Thes. 4:13-14

 

[Hiddenthings]

I just did. To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.( 2 Cor. 5:8) Do you see a separation of time in that relationship?
Phil. 1:23; Luke 23:43; John 3:16, 5:24, 8:51, 11:25-26; Joshua 1:9. 1 Cor. 15:54-55; Psalm 23:4; Rom. 8:38-39; Hosea13:14; 1 Thes. 4:13-14

No, you missed that Ronald!...I can explain:

It is often mistakenly as you have to assume that “to depart” means being immediately present with Christ at death.

Elsewhere in the same letter, the Apostle Paul clearly indicates where his hope lay: in the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.

Consider the following passages:

• “Until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6,10; 2:16)
• “If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead” (Philippians 3:11)
• “We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body…” (Philippians 3:20–21)

What you have done is take your false teaching and overlaid it onto the text without considering the whole revealed Word.

Paul’s hope for being in the Lord’s presence is tied to His second coming and the resurrection, not simply to the act of death.

For generations, Christians have attempted to prove the existence of an ethereal, immortal essence that survives death, yet to this day they remain unable to demonstrate it.

It's an obscene teaching and does such injustice to the text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I just did. To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.( 2 Cor. 5:8) Do you see a separation of time in that relationship?
Phil. 1:23; Luke 23:43; John 3:16, 5:24, 8:51, 11:25-26; Joshua 1:9. 1 Cor. 15:54-55; Psalm 23:4; Rom. 8:38-39; Hosea13:14; 1 Thes. 4:13-14

Peter, referring to the letters of the Apostle Paul, noted that there are “some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). This serves as a wise guideline: when interpreting a disputed passage, it is prudent to consult Paul’s other writings.

When did the Apostle expect to be with Christ? It was at the return of Christ, following the resurrection and judgment. Consider the following evidence:

• “Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you” (2 Corinthians 4:14)
• “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:10)
• “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing” (2 Timothy 4:8; cf. 4:1)

These passages make clear that Paul’s hope for being with Christ was connected to His return, resurrection, and the final judgment, rather than occurring at the moment of death.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I just did. To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.( 2 Cor. 5:8) Do you see a separation of time in that relationship?
Phil. 1:23; Luke 23:43; John 3:16, 5:24, 8:51, 11:25-26; Joshua 1:9. 1 Cor. 15:54-55; Psalm 23:4; Rom. 8:38-39; Hosea13:14; 1 Thes. 4:13-14

The sequence of events must be verifiable from Scripture. Paul did not expect to be instantly present with Christ at death. He understood that he would “sleep” like the other saints until the Resurrection Day (1 Corinthians 15:51–53), unless the Lord returned while he was still alive (1 Corinthians 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–14; cf. Daniel 12:2–3).

Can you see now the Spirit and intent behind his words?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I just did. To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord.( 2 Cor. 5:8) Do you see a separation of time in that relationship?
Phil. 1:23; Luke 23:43; John 3:16, 5:24, 8:51, 11:25-26; Joshua 1:9. 1 Cor. 15:54-55; Psalm 23:4; Rom. 8:38-39; Hosea13:14; 1 Thes. 4:13-14

In what sense could “to depart” (to die) be considered gain? In the state of death, “the dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; cf. 3:20). For the Apostle, death would bring relief from his physical suffering (2 Corinthians 11:23–29). Yet he recognized that, for the sake of the work he could continue among the Philippians, it would be better to “abide in the flesh,” that is, to remain alive (Philippians 1:24–26).

That is enough!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It is often mistakenly as you have to assume that “to depart” means being immediately present with Christ at death.

No, he didn't say depart 2 Cor. 5:8
The correct Greek translation is: "We are confident and pleased rather to be absent the body and to be home with the Lord."
Context >>> Go back a to verse 6:
" being confident therefore always and knowing that being home in the body , we are absent from the Lord".

He is comparing our physical existence to our spiritual existence IN CHRIST.

Are you a Jehovah Witness or SDA???
That would explain your confusion.

Philippians 1:6,10; 2:16)

"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ".
Speaking to all Christian throughout history, those present hearing the message to us now is applicable. The work being spoken of when He returns is the Resurrection. Those in heaven are waiting as well for their new bodies - a further upgrade.
The new body will be like His and angels, multi-dimensional, able to descend from heaven to earth and back, appear with a thought and transport back into the spiritual realm. Those in heaven now do not possess that ability, they are spirits, functioning in that realm only.
Phil. 2:16. Paul, in verses 14-15 is instructing Christians how to live, work out their salvation, be humble, love one another, etc. so that he will rejoice when we all have finished the race and recipe our resurrection.

We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body…” (Philippians 3:20–21

Absolutely, at the last trumpet.

Paul’s hope for being in the Lord’s presence is tied to His second coming and the resurrection, not simply to the act of death.

No, there will be no waiting period upon death. I explained that above.

For generations, Christians have attempted to prove the existence of an ethereal, immortal essence that survives death, yet to this day they remain unable to demonstrate it.

If you are a JW, you have been lied to. The scriptures have been distorted in the NWT to conform to your belief system and so you are suffering from a warped view of Christ. God, who is Spirit, became flesh and dwelt among us. When His body died, He did not go out of existance, He did not go to sleep, His spirit left His body. He told the criminal next to Him, TODAY you will be in Paradise with Him. He did not mean 2000 years from then. You can distort what "today means" and likely you have been fed many distorted and false teachings.
If you are SDA, well at least conceptually that is a far cry from the JW theology. Still, the Bible says we have a body, soul and spirit! Did you not read and discernment that either?
1 Thes. 5:23
Heb. 4:12

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The sequence of events must be verifiable from Scripture. Paul did not expect to be instantly present with Christ at death. He understood that he would “sleep” like the other saints until the Resurrection Day (1 Corinthians 15:51–53), unless the Lord returned while he was still alive (1 Corinthians 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–14; cf. Daniel 12:2–3).

Can you see now the Spirit and intent behind his words?

Okay, well you go to sleep then.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

In the state of death, “the dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; cf. 3:20).

That's the point. The dead in this verse refers to those who do not know God, have no faith; therefore have suffered the sting of death. Christians and all OT saints who lived by faith have not suffered the curse of death BECAUSE Christ died for our sins and His blood sacrifice is imputed to all His sheep throughout history. We are not dead who are in Christ, we are alive and will remain alive. We will not suffer what those who are in Hades suffer ( this temporary ignorance of not knowing the Lord or anything good). They are absent the body AND ABSENT THE LORD.

Okay, after looking at some of your other posts, I saw that you are a Non-Trinitarian, so not a SDA. This explains much. You are in the 2-3% of Christians who are out in left field, can't discern much ... you must be born again to possess the Holy Spirit ( Who is a disctint person of the Trinity btw) to be able to discern scripture. Right now you understand superficially at face value but with no spiritual depth. The nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit is fundamental and crucial to getting the whole picture of life and death. It's ironic, but in a way t you are asleep at the wheel right now. You'll wake up when you see Him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's the point. The dead in this verse refers to those who do not know God, have no faith; therefore have suffered the sting of death. Christians and all OT saints who lived by faith have not suffered the curse of death BECAUSE Christ died for our sins and His blood sacrifice is imputed to all His sheep throughout history. We are not dead who are in Christ, we are alive and will remain alive. We will not suffer what those who are in Hades suffer ( this temporary ignorance of not knowing the Lord or anything good). They are absent the body AND ABSENT THE LORD.

Okay, after looking at some of your other posts, I saw that you are a Non-Trinitarian, so not a SDA. This explains much. You are in the 2-3% of Christians who are out in left field, can't discern much ... you must be born again to possess the Holy Spirit ( Who is a disctint person of the Trinity btw) to be able to discern scripture. Right now you understand superficially at face value but with no spiritual depth. The nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit is fundamental and crucial to getting the whole picture of life and death. It's ironic, but in a way t you are asleep at the wheel right now. You'll wake up when you see Him.

You have accepted their falsehoods and attempted to construct a man-made theological framework to support a foundation that cannot stand.

Corinthians 15:51–52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

In other words the living at the time of Christ will not need "sleep" i.e death, as they will be gathered and changed. However, those faithful as taught you in Hebrews 11:39-40 will be raised, judged and glorified.

Hebrews 11:39–40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

But Romans 8:11 is where the sting is for you.

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he (God) who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

WILL ALSO

Sorry Ron but you have been lied to, and you have simply constructed a false gospel around that lie.

If you don't believe God gave Jesus Eternal Life at his resurrection then you have no access to the Life.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).

Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

You have some major doctrinal issues to contend with especially when you cross references these verses with Romans 1:1-4

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh (100% Human!) 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:1–4.

*Not instantaneous for Christ as he spent 3 days in the tomb!

Romans 2:7 – “…to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

Did God give Christ eternal life upon his resurrection?

If you say no?

BUT

what is you said yes

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You have accepted their falsehoods and attempted to construct a man-made theological framework to support a foundation that cannot stand.

Corinthians 15:51–52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

In other words the living at the time of Christ will not need "sleep" i.e death, as they will be gathered and changed. However, those faithful as taught you in Hebrews 11:39-40 will be raised, judged and glorified.

Hebrews 11:39–40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

But Romans 8:11 is where the sting is for you.

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he (God) who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

WILL ALSO

Sorry Ron but you have been lied to, and you have simply constructed a false gospel around that lie.

If you don't believe God gave Jesus Eternal Life at his resurrection then you have no access to the Life.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).

Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

You have some major doctrinal issues to contend with especially when you cross references these verses with Romans 1:1-4

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh (100% Human!) 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:1–4.

*Not instantaneous for Christ as he spent 3 days in the tomb!

Romans 2:7 – “…to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

Did God give Christ eternal life upon his resurrection?

If you say no?

BUT

what is you said yes

The dead physical body looks like it's sleeping. When we are sleeping, we are not dead, nor are Christians who die actually dead - we are alive as Jesus pro.ised we would be. This is why Jesus used the term sleeping. He did not bring anyone from Hades back to life, because they are dead, not with the Lord, imprisoned as the Rich man in Hades. (Luke 16:19-31). Our bodies will join with our spirits and be resurrected into new bodies. But this is all nonsense to a Jehovah Witness. You won't even admit nor deny you are one - which speaks volumes.
It would be nice and should be required to identify yourself as a JW in your profile - it would save most of us time wasted on trying to get through to you - it's really an exercise in futility and that goes for any Non-Trinitarian debates.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The dead physical body looks like it's sleeping. When we are sleeping, we are not dead, nor are Christians who die actually dead - we are alive as Jesus pro.ised we would be.

That's a hoot Ron!

This is why Jesus used the term sleeping. He did not bring anyone from Hades back to life, because they are dead, not with the Lord, imprisoned as the Rich man in Hades. (Luke 16:19-31).

A parable used to rebuke the Pharisees false understanding on the state of the daed. Its the most creative of all Christ parables.

It's odd you would go here to support this basic understanding which Paul teaches you everywhere in his writings.

Our bodies will join with our spirits and be resurrected into new bodies.

You cannot prove this - you don't have anything immortal in you Ron

You are struggling and you did not deal with the evidence previously shown you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The dead physical body looks like it's sleeping. When we are sleeping, we are not dead, nor are Christians who die actually dead - we are alive as Jesus pro.ised we would be. This is why Jesus used the term sleeping. He did not bring anyone from Hades back to life, because they are dead, not with the Lord, imprisoned as the Rich man in Hades. (Luke 16:19-31). Our bodies will join with our spirits and be resurrected into new bodies. But this is all nonsense to a Jehovah Witness. You won't even admit nor deny you are one - which speaks volumes.
It would be nice and should be required to identify yourself as a JW in your profile - it would save most of us time wasted on trying to get through to you - it's really an exercise in futility and that goes for any Non-Trinitarian debates.

There is an irony in truth of this teaching compared to the false teaching of Heaven going.

What I have shown you clarifies the distinction between “to depart” and “to be with Christ.” From Paul’s perspective, the next conscious moment after his departure would be at the resurrection and the judgment seat of Christ. Only after that would he “ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

If I may use a crude comparison, you are expecting a fast-food type of deliverance, when in reality God has prepared a fine-dining experience that has been planned over thousands of years.

It's all happening on Earth where the resurrection is to take place.

 

[Wick Stick]

The Heaven Going Lie

Hi @Marilyn C To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief. Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be...

www.christianityboard.com

Interesting we have 50 / 50 split on voting as to whether people believe they go to heaven when they die.

What are the implications for those who are wrong?

The “wrong” belief must have consequences in terms of how people live in this life - some view their walk as a probation in faith tested while others believe in automatic acceptance.

Would teaching about going to heaven have a greater impact on those who hold mistaken beliefs about the afterlife than on those who believe in the resurrection of the whole person?

If someone is wrong about going to heaven, this could provoke fear, anxiety, and urgent reflection, challenging their assumptions about salvation, judgment, and reward. If God were to raise them from the dead, they might become defensive, having neither fully known nor believed in this reality. If a person lived with false confidence and did not struggle to conform to Christ its possible they could be rejected as not knowing Christ and vice versa.

Conversely, if a person’s belief about going to heaven is correct, then the instant anyone faces this reality, their expectations regarding salvation or judgment would immediately be fulfilled, leaving no further uncertainty or anticipation.

I’m interested in people’s perspectives on how being right or wrong about the afterlife affects a believer’s life and the consequences of these beliefs.

Has anyone considered the idea that the word "heaven" is often not literal in the New Testament?

Matthew routinely substitutes the word "heaven" where Mark and Luke use the word "God." The kingdom of Heaven is at hand! (but really it's God's)

If that's the usage, then people do indeed go to "heaven" - the spirit returns to God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Has anyone considered the idea that the word "heaven" is often not literal in the New Testament?

Heaven can a number of meanings.

Matthew routinely substitutes the word "heaven" where Mark and Luke use the word "God." The kingdom of Heaven is at hand! (but really it's God's)

Not Kingdom IN heaven but of Heaven. To mean the coming Kingdom has its origins in Heaven which Christ is bringing upon his return.

If that's the usage, then people do indeed go to "heaven" - the spirit returns to God.

Spirit is breath but also means thoughts and the mind....depends on context.

Never immortal.

 

[rockytopva]

How easy is salvation?

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10

1. Confess with you mouth the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead

And it is also a rule here at ChristianyBoard.com....
* Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A parable used to rebuke the Pharisees false understanding on the state of the daed. Its the most creative of all Christ parables.

Luke 16:19-31 UD NOT A PARABLE!
This is not symbolic language, and is to be taken literally. Why?
Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls!
Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.

The Rich man's location is therefore real.

>Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
>What moral truth would be gained from something or some place that was not real?

Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!

The message to all is a stark warning. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he asleep. He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
> Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf (chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!

> The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus' death and resurrection.

This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.

You still haven't confessed or denied that you are Jehovah Witness. That life in itself is a struggle. Aren't you proud to say that you are one? At the same time, if you weren't, you would quickly deny it.

 

[amigo de christo]

Okay, well you go to sleep then.

speaking of sleep , i speak of another sleep . much of christendom now sleeps in the cradle of death
but beleives it to be love and of God .
IT IS TIME we go to remind this people that the love of the world saves none
and is enmity with GOD .
It is time to get this people far far f ar away from anything ecumenical and into the bible again .
Just a dire necessary and needful reminder for us all my friend .