The Holy Spirit in The Book of Hebrews

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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The Holy Spirit BRINGS the Most High to us AND takes us to be with Him...WHERE He dwells....in Zion.

The Father and Son are distinct Persons...sitting on thrones. 2 thrones not three. The 7 Spirits of God are BEFORE the throne...serving God.

Trying to force a "trinitarian" view on the scriptures is a real stretch. In fact it doesn't really work. There are only 2 thrones in heaven that make up the Godhead...look for yourself to see if you can find another spirit besides the Spirit of the living God in the Bible who is a personal god.

The Holy Spirit is an extension of God...a function of God by His Spirit. You can equate that to the finger of God or the hand of God as described in the Bible at various times.

I don't equate a function of God with a person...although that function BRINGS the Person of God to us. By His presence. The Holy Spirit brings the presence of God to us...and brings us to God.

In Acts 5 we have the account of Ananias and Sapphira, who schemed to try to deceive the Holy Spirit, as verse 3 says:

"But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?"

To be able to LIE to the Holy Spirit, is clear that the Holy Spirit is Personal, and not impersonal.

In verse 4 Peter informs Ananias of the seriousness of his sin,

" Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

By lying to the Holy Spirit, they were lying to GOD, as the Holy Spirit is GOD.

The passages in the OP are clear that the Holy Spirit is Almighty God, and distinct from the Father and Jesus Christ
 
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Episkopos

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In Acts 5 we have the account of Ananias and Sapphira, who schemed to try to deceive the Holy Spirit, as verse 3 says:

"But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?"

To be able to LIE to the Holy Spirit, is clear that the Holy Spirit is Personal, and not impersonal.

In verse 4 Peter informs Ananias of the seriousness of his sin,

" Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

By lying to the Holy Spirit, they were lying to GOD, as the Holy Spirit is GOD.

The passages in the OP are clear that the Holy Spirit is Almighty God, and distinct from the Father and Jesus Christ


Don't you see what the verses are telling you? God is present in His Spirit. God is Spirit. The Father is in His Spirit.

The Spirit BRINGS God to us...His presence...AND the Spirit brings us to God...by His Spirit.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Very few understand the purpose of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is a gateway to the Father.

For those who like Star Trek, there is a teleporter on the show that allows people to be scrambled from one place to the next. That teleporter works both ways... you can go FROM the mothership and TO the mothership. I think most people would understand this much.

But when it comes to God that kind of logic goes out the window. Why? Religious conditioning.

The Spirit transports Christ INTO us...and us INTO Christ.

Is the transporter in the Star Trek series a person? No. Are the people real that go through the transporter (in the show). Yes.

So then the Spirit of God is a means for both the Father and the Son to dwell in a person.

Your argument here is extremely weak. I've acknowledged that your view has historical validity, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I think the stronger argument is that the Holy Spirit is a *person.* He is treated *as a person* in the Scriptures.

I like some of your statements, that the Spirit is a means, etc. But that doesn't mean the "means" cannot be "a person." I think He is, and I believe the Scriptures say He is.

Obviously you know that the Spirit is not just what God is made of, but also *who He is?* If so, then He is not just the means of transmitting God's Person to us, but also the Person who is being transmitted to us. Anyway, that's my take.[/QUOTE]
 
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Episkopos

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Your argument here is extremely weak. I've acknowledged that your view has historical validity, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I think the stronger argument is that the Holy Spirit is a *person.* He is treated *as a person* in the Scriptures.

I like some of your statements, that the Spirit is a means, etc. But that doesn't mean the "means" cannot be "a person." I think He is, and I believe the Scriptures say He is.

Obviously you know that the Spirit is not just what God is made of, but also *who He is?* If so, then He is not just the means of transmitting God's Person to us, but also the Person who is being transmitted to us. Anyway, that's my take.


I think there is flexibility there seeing the mystery is so deep. Tertullian said that the GodHead is both 2 AND 3. He saw that it could work both ways...but he preferred the trinity idea. I'm just trying to put the 2 back into Tertullian. :)

In the end when we are translated to a heavenly walk in Zion does it matter if the conveyance was a person or not? What matters is being where He is and doing as He does.

Peace.
 

Randy Kluth

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I think there is flexibility there seeing the mystery is so deep. Tertullian said that the GodHead is both 2 AND 3. He saw that it could work both ways...but he preferred the trinity idea. I'm just trying to put the 2 back into Tertullian. :)

In the end when we are translated to a heavenly walk in Zion does it matter if the conveyance was a person or not? What matters is being where He is and doing as He does.

Peace.

Amen.
 
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charity

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cont

In Chapter 9:14, we have testimony to the Holy Spirit as being “Eternal”, which means that He cannot be “created”, and is Almighty God, Who is Eternal.

“how much more will the blood of Christ, Who by means of the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

The words, “dia pneumatos aiōniou” (through the eternal Spirit), do not refer to “Christ’s spirit”, as some claim. There is not a single verse that says anything about Jesus offering His blood “through His human spirit”, nor does this make any sense.

Interesting, that here we have a variant reading, where there is textual evidence, that does not have “aiōniou”, but “hagiou”, “Holy”. Found in the 5th century Greek manuscript, the Codex Bezae. Also in a number of Greek manuscripts in the Byzantine text-type. Before this time, is was found in the quotes of the Greek Church Fathers, Athanasius (293-373); Didymus the Blind (313-398); John Chrysostom (died 407); Cyril of Alexandria (375-444); John of Damascus (675-749). In the Old Latin (2nd cent); Latin Vulgate (4th cent), Coptic (3rd-4th); Georgian (5th); Syriac (6th) [Dr Scholz, Novum Testamentum graece]. We could read here, “dia hagiou pneumatos aiōniou”, “through the eternal Holy Spirit”, as there is strong evidence for this.

The Conception of the Lord Jesus Christ, was by the Power of the Holy Spirit, Who caused the Virgin Mary to conceive the human nature of Jesus Christ in her womb, without any participation of a human father. This Operation by the Holy Spirit, also caused the derived human nature from Mary, to be without any sin.

“The birth of Jesus Christ came about this way: After His mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child out of the Holy Spirit (ek pneumatos hagiou)” (Matthew 1:18)

“And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born out of you, will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)

Again, at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit was Active

1 Peter 3:18, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit (zōopoiētheis de pneumati)”

It is clear that The Holy Spirit is meant here, and not Jesus’ “human spirit”, which He actually “gave up” when He died on the cross, as in Luke 23:46, etc. This is clear from Romans 8:11;

“if now the Spirit (to pneuma) of the One having raised up Jesus out of the dead

It is very clear from what we read in the Book of Hebrews, that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and not just an impersonal power of God. It is also clear that the Holy Sprit is Himself Yahweh, the Eternal uncreated Almighty God of the Bible, Who is very much Active in the Old Testament.
Hello @ByGraceThroughFaith,

Thank you for both of your entries (replies #1 & #2)

The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of God. We see Him evidenced as the Giver of power from on high (pnuema hagion - Luke 24:49), and through the administration of the spiritual gifts He bestowed during the Acts period. Also the New Nature indwelling the believer is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 

marks

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Yes, it is difficult to explain the 3 Persons of the 1 God, but it is biblical. I would define a Person of God as a particular *environmental consciousness* of divine personality.

If the environment of divine consciousness is "everywhere," then the Father is conscious of Himself as a transcendent Being. If the environment of divine consciousness is local, in a human being, then the Son is conscious of himself in the form of an immanent, created being. If the environment of divine consciousness is local and spiritual, not limited to the form of any created entity, then the Spirit is conscious of Himself in limited particular places.

You see, being infinite enables Deity to be conscious of Himself in both omnipresent and local places. Such is how an infinite Being works, not being limited to consciousness in exclusively transcendent or imminent states of being. Both are possible simultaneously for an infinite Being.
Interesting thoughts!

Much love!
 

marks

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In chapter 2, verse 4, we read, “the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”; 3:7, “the Holy Spirit says”; 6:4, “partners of the Holy Spirit”; 9:8, “the Holy Spirit indicating this”; 10:15, “the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying”; 10:29, “and insulted the Spirit of grace”.

It is very clear from these passages, and others in both the Old and New Testaments, that the Holy Spirit is “Personal”, as the language used for Him, cannot be attributed to mere “things”.
Yes, we should not "depersonalize" what the Bible gives personhood to.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is not said to be on a throne. Yes, the Holy Spirit and "God is a Spirit" may seem like a redundancy, however, I believe the Bible was written the way is was so that it would form the way we think of things, and this is the ways God presents the Holy Spirit, as a Person.

Much love!
 
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marks

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I think that once a person gets that idea in their minds...it becomes very difficult to look into the issue in any deeper way.
That doesn't give credit to the Holy Spirit to be able to illuminate us with truth. Understanding God as Father and Son with a shared Holy Spirit, yet our Godhead is two, this isn't any more difficult to understand or accept than the Trinity. And I think you make a fair presentation of that view. It's just that I find it doesn't really fit the language of Scripture, so that's not how I think of Him.

Much love!
 

Episkopos

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That doesn't give credit to the Holy Spirit to be able to illuminate us with truth. Understanding God as Father and Son with a shared Holy Spirit, yet our Godhead is two, this isn't any more difficult to understand or accept than the Trinity. And I think you make a fair presentation of that view. It's just that I find it doesn't really fit the language of Scripture, so that's not how I think of Him.

Much love!


And that's fine. I think we come at this with a tilted balance scale...in favour of what was decided by men a long time ago. But as spiritual people we have the ability to look beyond the teaching of the masses...since creeds were meant to conform basically non-believers into a religion that was unified...at least outwardly. I think God is looking for more than that from the few.

I have no issue with those who see the Holy Spirit as a person...especially since it is the person of the Father (and now the Son) who is being transmitted through His Spirit. It's unfortunate, in my view, that the Father is not acknowledged in this. The Father is seen as someone who we interact with but at a great distance.

Language wise...English speakers are at a disadvantage in that there are no masculine and feminine genders for inanimate objects...like there are in Hebrew, Greek, and the latin languages. (among others) In fact English is one of the few languages that doesn't use gender for nouns and verbs.

So the mystery extends even to this. Is the Holy Spirit a He or an it? Well in Hebrew and Greek...a he or an it are the same word!

As long as the Holy Spirit is not worshiped (which does happen) as one who is separate from the Father and the Son....as a god..or God...the danger is minimal. We are to worship IN the Spirit...not the Spirit. In Spirit and truth. Neither are we to worship truth.
 
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marks

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It's unfortunate, in my view, that the Father is not acknowledged in this. The Father is seen as someone who we interact with but at a great distance.
I don't find that I see the Father as farther away, God is very close, Father, Son, Spirit.

In the renewing of the mind, we move from the fleshy non-awareness of God, to the spiritual awareness of God, even as Jesus said, You will all leave me, but I will not be alone, the Father is with me. The Father was with Jesus in a way that Jesus would not be alone even though all men left Him. That's personal communion with the Father, close, intimate.

In the fleshy mind, comes thoughts of distance and separation, hiding and shame, bitterness and rebellion. In the spiritual mind we are at peace with God, Jesus having made peace for us with our Father, in faith, and in that faith is how we hold to the spiritual mind, standing in grace.

As we are more consistent in holding to the spiritual mind, our fleshy brain though corrupted by sin is reformed according to the new man, making it easier for us to have that consistency. This is why we are to be merciful and gentle with those who are weak, or fallen, as they may be struggling against a very corrupt flesh.

Now, I don't say this to say we will be fully reformed in this lifetime. He shall transform the body of our humiliation to be like unto His body of glory. We'll still have that "body of humiliation", "our vile body", until our transformation. And what truth there, "the body of our humiliation"!

I realize that the way some people talk, it's just like you say, they think of Jesus as being nice, and near, and the Father as harsh, and distant, but I don't think it's because they think of the Holy Spirit personally or not personally, but because there is so much legalistic teaching and thought that infects so much.

People have been told all their lives in some cases how only past sins are forgiven, or, you have to prove yourself to God, that you love Him, by your obedience, or He's cast you away, or all sorts of variations. I think this is more responsible for those feelings of distance in God's children. They haven't learned how close they are to His heart, and how completely they are reconciled in Jesus.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Language wise...English speakers are at a disadvantage in that there are no masculine and feminine genders for inanimate objects...like there are in Hebrew, Greek, and the latin languages. (among others) In fact English is one of the few languages that doesn't use gender for nouns and verbs.

So the mystery extends even to this. Is the Holy Spirit a He or an it? Well in Hebrew and Greek...a he or an it are the same word!
Hebrew I don't know about. I started to try to learn it, but it became immediately clear that God was not in it. In the Greek texts, well, frankly, there are some really fascinating syntax combinations used sometimes when it is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

That aside, activities are ascribed to the Holy Spirit that normally accompany personhood, and so I think this is how God is presenting Himself to us.

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person in the Trinity, this passage would be like saying, "the telephone said". I think it's written this way because this is how God wants us to think of Him, that it reflects the reality of Who He is, not that I think we can really begin to grasp this.

Much love!
 

marks

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As long as the Holy Spirit is not worshiped (which does happen) as one who is separate from the Father and the Son....as a god..or God...the danger is minimal. We are to worship IN the Spirit...not the Spirit. In Spirit and truth. Neither are we to worship truth.
Amen!

Father and Son united in Holy Spirit, and we are united to them in the same Holy Spirit, something most amazing!

Much love!
 
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charity

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Hebrew I don't know about. I started to try to learn it, but it became immediately clear that God was not in it. In the Greek texts, well, frankly, there are some really fascinating syntax combinations used sometimes when it is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

That aside, activities are ascribed to the Holy Spirit that normally accompany personhood, and so I think this is how God is presenting Himself to us.

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person in the Trinity, this passage would be like saying, "the telephone said". I think it's written this way because this is how God wants us to think of Him, that it reflects the reality of Who He is, not that I think we can really begin to grasp this.

Much love!
Hello @marks and @Episkopos,

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, and He intercedes for us with groans that cannot be uttered. That is very much the wording to which the word 'He' is applicable, don't you think? He is the Holy Spirit of God. (This is holy ground, isn't it, and I feel we should tread carefully). Sometimes the words 'Holy Spirit' is used of the 'power' which is administered by Him to usward, and then we can justifiably use the word, 'it' in relation to that power. We must distinguish between 'The Giver', and His 'gifts', yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Episkopos

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Hebrew I don't know about. I started to try to learn it, but it became immediately clear that God was not in it. In the Greek texts, well, frankly, there are some really fascinating syntax combinations used sometimes when it is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

That aside, activities are ascribed to the Holy Spirit that normally accompany personhood, and so I think this is how God is presenting Himself to us.

Acts 13:2 KJV
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person in the Trinity, this passage would be like saying, "the telephone said". I think it's written this way because this is how God wants us to think of Him, that it reflects the reality of Who He is, not that I think we can really begin to grasp this.

Much love!


The Holy Ghost said...

The Bible was written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Why doesn't it say that men wrote it? The words are God-breathed.

Now, in a meeting where people are present and one of them speaks by the Spirit...we don't name the person who spoke it as it is from the Spirit within. The Father and the Son don't need to show up "in person"...they speak through the spirits of the prophets.

I think the Acts 13 account could also have put it..God said...or else the Father and Son said. I think it's just expedient to say that the Spirit spoke. (which also happens to be accurate). Both the Father and the Son work through the Holy Spirit.

Last point: I have personally experienced this kind of utterance in a meeting. It sounds like a a HUGE voice...like a voice that is under deep waters...coming out of a person that doesn't speak like that at all. There is NO doubt that it is God who is speaking in the assembly. Is the Father? Yes. Is it the Son? Yes. ...through the One Holy Spirit.

Then it becomes a question of the Spirit being a separate person or not from the Father and the Son. Does it matter? In any case it is the will of God being proclaimed.
 
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