The Holy Spirit

[amadeus]

th1b.taylor: I have had folks, proclaiming to be saved, both in class and on the Internet tell me that not everyone can be as holy as I am! I always have and still do teach that I have no righteousness in me without the Imputed Righteousness of my Savior. If I am only found to be righteous through Him then it follows that without Him I have no holiness either. Now, if we flip this around and examine my condition carefully, in light of the revealed nature of God, in the scriptures, we see that any saved man or woman will have the same Holy Spirit to lead their lives.

Yes. if any of us do anything good in the eyes of God, is it not by God [the only one "good"] in us, that we do it? On the other hand, if any of do anything evil, it is certainly not as a result of God's Spirit within us is it?

If any of us have sinned since the Lord called us and we answered, there would seem to be some doubt as to our the "old man" of such person has been crucified yet...[Rom 6:6-7]

th1b.taylor: As we all should know, God does not force any to do anything, evidenced by the fact that His perfect will is that None should perish (2Pet. 3:9) but that all should come to repentance and be saved and yet we know that the penalty for sin and failing to repent of it is death. (Rom. 6:23) And then we are taught by Jesus that there are two ways to live our lives and these are represented by the wide and the narrow gates. (Matt. 7:13) For, even the newest Christian, Hell is a real place and because they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God they will understand and affirm the teaching that the Second Death. (Rev. 20:14-15)

Yes, God does not force us to do anything. We can follow His will perfectly by the power of His Spirit, or we can misuse things in His creation, which was "very good" [Gen 1:31] from the beginning so that they reflect our own perverted ways. God has allowed us that choice and the beastly nature of man [Ecc 3:18] following his owns ways has set before us the wide wide world of filth as we see it today. Can anyone fail to understand why Jesus wept? It would seem than more is required here than turning over the tables of the money changers!

th1b.taylor: So, because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit when we are saved we have a choice to make, we can follow His leading or, because God is not a cosmic bully, as some have suggested, we can deny Him and not be saved but still call ourselves Christian and no matter the good works we perform, work ourselves into Hell.

I would not say that anyone works his way into hell. A person who fails to choose the way of Joshua [Joshua 24:15] instead of the gods of the Amorites [or whatever negative "-ites" a person chooses] is already in hell for he is already condemned. Perhaps the mercy that Aspen mentions is seen in these words:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

 

[amadeus]

Well, I was with you, until you stated that Hell is the opposite of heaven and you started adding levels to both. Do you have any verses to back up those ideas?

Are there not three heavens corresponding to three levels of the Ark built by Noah and also to the three levels within the tabenacle in the wilderness built by Moses? In the OT under the various covenants the gate to the garden containing the Tree of Life was closed and guarded by Cherubims and a flaming sword. Jesus was the Door [John 10:7], the veil, which blocked the way into the Holiest of Holies, until it was torn asunder when He died on the cross[Matt 27:51], making it possible for men to once again enter in and eat of the Tree of Life. Of course, not just anyone can get in..., but entry is now possible!

 

[Selene]

Are there not three heavens corresponding to three levels of the Ark built by Noah and also to the three levels within the tabenacle in the wilderness built by Moses? In the OT under the various covenants the gate to the garden containing the Tree of Life was closed and guarded by Cherubims and a flaming sword. Jesus was the Door [John 10:7], the veil, which blocked the way into the Holiest of Holies, until it was torn asunder when He died on the cross[Matt 27:51], making it possible for men to once again enter in and eat of the Tree of Life. Of course, not just anyone can get in..., but entry is now possible!

If I am not mistaken, I think the Jewish people believed in 7 Heavens. I think that is where we get the phrase "7th Heaven" from.

 

[TexUs]

2 Corinthians 2:2, "third heaven" suggests a first and second heaven.

 

[Selene]

2 Corinthians 2:2, "third heaven" suggests a first and second heaven.

I understand, but that does not mean that there is no fourth or fifth heaven. Where does it say that the third Heaven is even the last Heaven. I was only saying that the Jewish people believed that there are 7 Heavens. St. Paul was Jewish. Okay....so, St. Paul mentioned a third Heaven. Just because he mentioned a third Heaven does not mean that there is no fourth?

For example, if a person says "Jason is my third son," does this mean that Jason is her last son?

 

[TexUs]

I was simply responding with Scriptural evidence for levels of heaven. I'm not making a claim on how many.

 

[Selene]

I was simply responding with Scriptural evidence for levels of heaven. I'm not making a claim on how many.

And I was simply making a note that the Jewish people recognize that there are 7 Heavens. If I am not mistaken, I think it is even written in their Talmund.

 

[aspen]

Boy, I have to admit, I really have not studied the levels of Heaven in probably 25 years - the last time I look at the subject I was preparing for a Mormon. I think I remember Paul talking about a third Heaven, but I thought he was simply talking about a mystical experience, sort of like John's Revelation. I am really going to have to read up on this topic. It certainly is an interesting one.

 

[mjrhealth]

Il like that. Jesus says. " I will send you the Holy spirit". and then you see christians reading books about

"Engaging the Holy Spirit" by Graham A Cole.

Why cant you just ask Jesus to fill you with the Holy Spirit, it really is not that hard and doesnt cost you anything but a little faith, and less of mens opinions.

It no wonder Jesus through the monet changers out of the temple, theres a lot of money to be made in getting people to pay for " Gods Words"

They should all be free, well they are supposed to be.

In His Love

 

[Anastacia]

Where in the Old Testament does it say there are 7 heavens?

 

[Selene]

Boy, I have to admit, I really have not studied the levels of Heaven in probably 25 years - the last time I look at the subject I was preparing for a Mormon. I think I remember Paul talking about a third Heaven, but I thought he was simply talking about a mystical experience, sort of like John's Revelation. I am really going to have to read up on this topic. It certainly is an interesting one.

Hi Aspen,

I remember reading somewhere that the Jewish people believed that there were 7 Heavens. If I am not mistaken, it may be mentioned in the Jewish Talmund.

 

[TexUs]

mjrhealth, totally agree.
It peeves me when churches explode in a ministry and then write books about "This is what we did"... It has absolutely nothing to do with what they did, it has to do with the Holy Spirit's work. You can't just implement a program to make the Holy Spirit move and work the way YOU want it to, but so many people do that.

However that said, the book's description does say it seeks to answer:

• What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
• How does a person resist him?
• Ought we to pray to the Spirit?
• How do we quench the Spirit?
• How do we grieve the Spirit? and
• How does he fill us?

I don't see anything wrong with that, it's a book about who the Holy Spirit is, and how he works. I haven't read it but if it takes a "These are your steps to getting more of the Holy Spirit" then I'd put it in the rubbish pile along with all the "Implement these steps" books.

Boy, I have to admit, I really have not studied the levels of Heaven in probably 25 years - the last time I look at the subject I was preparing for a Mormon. I think I remember Paul talking about a third Heaven, but I thought he was simply talking about a mystical experience, sort of like John's Revelation. I am really going to have to read up on this topic. It certainly is an interesting one.

Heaven, by Randy Alcorn... The most Biblical look at Heaven you'll find (deals with practically all aspects of it, including animals in heaven, levels of heaven, higher riches in heaven for some, etc).
It's not just a "here's my opinion", but rather he takes it from the Bible.
If you want a Biblical look at heaven and not much more: read it.
If you want a picture of a magical never-ending worship service that's not based on the Bible, go ask someone at the Catholic church.

Hi Aspen,

I remember reading somewhere that the Jewish people believed that there were 7 Heavens. If I am not mistaken, it may be mentioned in the Jewish Talmund.

Who cares? If it's not in the Bible...
Mormons believe in levels of heaven- maybe we should take teachings from their Book of Mormon? It's got as much authority as the Talmund does.
What about the Quran? Perhaps we should consult it, too?

 

[Duckybill]

I agree. God is not a cosmic bully and people will choose Hell. It is strange to think that anyone would choose such a horrible fate, but it will actually be a mercy to the unredeemed.

Actually, when someone enters Hell it is the end of God's mercy for that person.

 

[Selene]

Who cares? If it's not in the Bible...
Mormons believe in levels of heaven- maybe we should take teachings from their Book of Mormon? It's got as much authority as the Talmund does.
What about the Quran? Perhaps we should consult it, too?

For goodness sake, it is all part of learning. The more one learns, the more educated they become. In fact, I have read the Qu'ran and the Hadith, and that is why the Muslims have a difficult time debating with me.

 

[Rach1370]

Il like that. Jesus says. " I will send you the Holy spirit". and then you see christians reading books about
Why cant you just ask Jesus to fill you with the Holy Spirit, it really is not that hard and doesnt cost you anything but a little faith, and less of mens opinions.
It no wonder Jesus through the monet changers out of the temple, theres a lot of money to be made in getting people to pay for " Gods Words"
They should all be free, well they are supposed to be.
In His Love

Hey! That wasn't a very nice swipe! I'm a saved Christian, I do have the Holy Spirit, which I am eternally grateful for!
But I like to read! So what would you prefer me to read? I could sit down with a copy of Harry Potter (not!) or I could spend my time reading about something that we could perhaps say has a little life value!

Oh, and hey....on the whole 'heaven' thing.....don't all those saved end up back on the 'New earth' when all is renewed? You know, the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, the Trees of Life in the garden at the center, and the light of God giving us daylight!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Where in the Old Testament does it say there are 7 heavens?

No Where! All of this conversation certainly illustrates the need for intensive and prolonged Bible study by the picture drawn here of how little is known about our future homes, some to Heaven and many, to many, to Hell.

While I'll never admit that the Nave's Topical is the best answer, many here need to download it or to purchase an inexpensive copy of it! At least then you could look subjects like Heaven and Hell up and do the study, the very thing we are commanded to do.

 

[veteran]

One of the Old Testament events about The Holy Spirit I've found interesting is of how God gave king Saul His Spirit in 1 Samuel 10, and then later took His Spirit away from Saul and instead gave Saul an evil spirit in 1 Samuel 16, after having anointed David. In Psalms 51 David prayed that God would not take away His Holy Spirit from him. King Saul had disobeyed God's commandments and direction through His prophet Samuel. Saul imparted his own will over God's will more than once. So I think if God gives us The Holy Spirit Comforter, but we continually disobey, He will then take it away, and might even replace It with something else if we remain disobedient against Him.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey th1.b.taylor. Granted there seems to be some speculation on the Heaven/Hell thing. And while Heaven is a very real place that the Christians who die before Jesus' second advent go to, we aren't actually told much of it in scripture. I think that's why there is so many thoughts and opinions on it. But when Jesus returns our eternal dwelling will be somewhere else, and this we get to see a bit in Revelations!

[The New Heaven and the New Earth]
[21:1] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. [2] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. [4] He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
(Revelation 21:1-4 ESV)


[23] And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
(Revelation 21:23 ESV)


[The River of Life]
[22:1] Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb [2] through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(Revelation 22:1-2 ESV)

I think it sounds so amazing! And the most important thing? We'll be with our Lord!!

 

[mjrhealth]

You all dont get it do you, Jesus said it Himself,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

See what studying the bible has done, brought all these foolish arguements and bickering, What is it hat Christ has to do, to get your attention, was it not enough that He die on the cross for you all, was it not enought that He gaves us the Holy Spirit to teach us and gude us into the truth, that you have to believe that God would give us a book so we could study it then spend our lives destroying one another with words, how stupid do we think God is. The written word cannot bring you life, ony Jesus can, and as long as you keep yourself from Him you will; never grow. I can never deny the word for Jesus is Gods word, and as He says, " the words thta I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life, The written word is just that, an ink stain on a piece of paper that will fade in time, but Gods word which is spirit will never fail".

In His Love

 

[Thankful 1]

You all dont get it do you, Jesus said it Himself,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

See what studying the bible has done, brought all these foolish arguements and bickering, What is it hat Christ has to do, to get your attention, was it not enough that He die on the cross for you all, was it not enought that He gaves us the Holy Spirit to teach us and gude us into the truth, that you have to believe that God would give us a book so we could study it then spend our lives destroying one another with words, how stupid do we think God is. The written word cannot bring you life, ony Jesus can, and as long as you keep yourself from Him you will; never grow. I can never deny the word for Jesus is Gods word, and as He says, " the words thta I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life, The written word is just that, an ink stain on a piece of paper that will fade in time, but Gods word which is spirit will never fail".

In His Love

You are so right. Paul told us just what you said. We don’t need the written Word to know God. We need God to teach us to know God.



(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”