The Identity of the Antichrist, the Two Beasts of Revelation, and the Whore of Babylon

[inchrist]

"No, but it reaffirms it".

Then it doesn't reaffirm your position at all. The legitimacy of your argument ends there. Revelation says nothing about "the woman that rides the beast and sits upon many waters" as being any other woman but the same woman that gave birth to Jesus Christ and flees into the wilderness, and we all know it wasn't in the geographical location known today as Iraq.




For your argument to make any sense, you will have to illustrate that this is not the same "great city" spoken of in chapter 11 and the same woman spoken of in Revelation 12 who gave birth to Jesus Christ.

(Revelation 11:8) "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

But spiritually not called Babylon. Sodom and Egypt are daughters of the whore, so was Jerusalem a daughter of the whore.

Revelation has two great cities in view, no where in the entirety of scriptures and please go back as far as the OT will you find Jerusalem is ever called Babylon.

And evidence of this is what I presented to you. Babylon is destined to be completely utterly removed, destroyed.

Rev 18:21
Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.

It doesnt say the great city of Jerusalem.

Here in Zechariah 12 we see Jerusalem still in existence and God protecting the other great city Jerusalem


12 A prophecy: The word of the Lordconcerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens,who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person,declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nationsof the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injurethemselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day theLord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God,like the angel of the Lord going before them.9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look onme, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives

One great city is utterly destroyed, the other great city is protected by God himself. But for some reason you think there is only one great city and what you left with is a contradiction.

The two cities are always contrasted against one another.

Rev 12 and Rev 17 are complete polar opposites.

The one woman is nourished by God the other woman is blasphemous against God.

The one woman is protected against the Red Dragon the other woman is utterly destroyed.

Now I don't doubt the antichrist will conquer Israel and declare himself as a god in Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is not his seat of power. His seat of power would be Babylon.

 

[keras]

No, I just like to expose your ridiculous interpretation which turns a bit of prophecy, ostensibly about the Millennium after God's Wrath desolates the earth in the one 'seven', upside down and instead makes it a preposterous event coincidental with the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 30:26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the Lord binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

How someone can hold an opinion on that and not accept correction marks that person as someone who cannot be sharpened, and takes no correction.
That is not wise; it is utter foolishness.

Anyone can see how Marcus denigrates those who challenge his beliefs. In his nasty responses, Marcus manages to demonstrate his lack of proper study and understanding of verses like Isaiah 30:26, in its context, has nothing to do with the Millennium and all to do with the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, when He comes in fierce anger with flames of devouring fire... Isaiah 30:30
What is in dire need of correction, is the nowhere to be found in scripture, pretentious and escapist notion of a rapture to heaven.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marcus manages to demonstrate his lack of proper study and understanding of verses like Isaiah 30:26, in its context, has nothing to do with the Millennium and all to do with the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath,

Oh dear, to correct this fallacy, I might get called 'nasty'.
Now what's really nasty? To correct a fallacy or call that 'nasty'?

Isaiah 30:26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the Lord binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

Isaiah 30:26 stands alone in saying what is happening when the light of the moon and sun shine brightly, is connected to the day God heals the bruises He has inflicted.
And rabbi keras refuses to accept the wording of the prophet.
Instead, he says this means that the sun erupts in an unprecedented coronal mass ejection which will physically burn the earth on the Day of the Lord.

That's ridiculous.
But according to rabbi keras, again, it's nasty.
How dare I correct him!

 

[keras]

I don't need to refute Marcus, all can see how confused and stuck into false theories he is.

Re the OP of this thread:
We can guess all we like, but until events unfold, there is no way we can know the identity of the Anti-Christ or any other end time identities.
As Bible reading Christians, we will be able to identify and avoid them.

 

[n2thelight]

And so your belief that Jerusalem is not being referred to as mystery Babylon rests entirely on the construction of a building? Where is your scripture supporting the idea that Jerusalem is not the main focus of end times prophecy? Was Jesus born in Iraq, or Israel?

Mystery Babylon is a system,not a place.....

 

[Dcopymope]

Mystery Babylon is a system,not a place.....

Its both a place and a system, and it makes that very clear when it equates "mystery Babylon" to the woman who fled into the wilderness, which is only referring to Israel and to no other place in the slightest.

 

[n2thelight]

Its both a place and a system, and it makes that very clear when it equates "mystery Babylon" to the woman who fled into the wilderness, which is only referring to Israel and to no other place in the slightest.

Yes the woman is Israel,however it's still not referring to a place

Israel in Rev 12:6 is a people,not a place...

 

[inchrist]

Its both a place and a system, and it makes that very clear when it equates "mystery Babylon" to the woman who fled into the wilderness, which is only referring to Israel and to no other place in the slightest.

The woman in Rev 12 is protected by God.

The woman in Rev 17 is destroyed by God.

They are not the same woman

 

[Dcopymope]

The woman in Rev 12 is protected by God.

The woman in Rev 17 is destroyed by God.

They are not the same woman

The woman in the wilderness decked out like a pimp in Rev 17 is never stated to be a different woman than the one that flee's into the wilderness in Rev 12. It never explicitly states anywhere that its not the same woman, but in fact reinforces that it is in fact the same when it also refers to that same woman as "that great city" just like the woman in Rev 12. As far as I can tell, there is only one "great city", unless you can show otherwise. And yes, that same woman, Israel most certainly will be destroyed, like God has done before. But no worries, God's got a better one planned for the saints, which will be made without hands directly from heaven like the prophet Daniel stated will be. What happens with the old one is just God taking out the trash.

 

[inchrist]

What happens with the old one is just God taking out the trash.

Nope try again, i tell you what I believe your theory if you can find me a second witness as scripture calls for.... in the OT or any scripture besides john that Jerusalem was ever called babylon? Find that for me please....

Here is further proof which you have ignored Jerusalem still very much in existence

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Compared to the the utter destruction of babylon to be no longer in existence

Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

See for in one hour is she made desolate

The word desolate in greek is erémoó and what that means is leave abandoned, deserted.

Jerusalem as you can see in Zech 12 and 13 is not left deserted nor abandoned.

As some point you need to realise you theory does not fit???

 

[skypair]

This is a pretty wild thread, guys. Do you realize that we already saw the harlot in the wilderness. This is not preterism. The first 8 verses of Rev 17 and the first 4 verses of Rev 18 are pre-rapture. The harlot showed up in the wilderness of Chorazim in May 2000. Amazing! In the midst of the desert, a great, grand display was set up for the man who sat on the throne of an upside down cross.

Call me crazy but in Mt 13, the "woman" who mixed 3 measures of leaven into the meal religious AntiChrist mixing false religion, false government, and false economy into the world of barley (Gentiles) and wheat (Jews) .. together called "meal."

Likewise, Rev 18:4 -- "Come out of her, My people" is the rapture from commercial Babylon of our day -- the USA.

Like Jesus said in Mt 13:11, this is not for everyone's consumption. I hope everyone here is capable of at least thinking about these things.

skypair

 

[Dcopymope]

Nope try again, i tell you what I believe your theory if you can find me a second witness as scripture calls for.... in the OT or any scripture besides john that Jerusalem was ever called babylon? Find that for me please....

Here is further proof which you have ignored Jerusalem still very much in existence

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Compared to the the utter destruction of babylon to be no longer in existence

Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

See for in one hour is she made desolate

The word desolate in greek is erémoó and what that means is leave abandoned, deserted.

Jerusalem as you can see in Zech 12 and 13 is not left deserted nor abandoned.

As some point you need to realise you theory does not fit???

Indeed, NEW Jerusalem will not be made desolate, that's why its called new Jerusalem. The term "new" implies that at some point, there was an old one, which is no longer in existence, and there can only be one Jerusalem, unless you can show me that there will be two. That's why I refer to the "woman" as both place and people, for the place will most certainly be reduced to rubble, but God's remnant will clearly not. At some point, you need to realize that the Jerusalem, both in the millennial reign and after, is not the going to be the same Jerusalem we see today.

 

[inchrist]

Indeed, NEW Jerusalem will not be made desolate, that's why its called new Jerusalem. The term "new" implies that at some point, there was an old one, which is no longer in existence, and there can only be one Jerusalem, unless you can show me that there will be two. That's why I refer to the "woman" as both place and people, for the place will most certainly be reduced to rubble, but God's remnant will clearly not. At some point, you need to realize that the Jerusalem, both in the millennial reign and after, is not the going to be the same Jerusalem we see today.

Im referring to the actual city.

I see you still have not provided me scripture of a second witness Jerusalem has been called Babylon.

Further no where in Zechariah 12 does it state New Jerualem

Further if we go by the size of new Jerusalem, New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is 2225 km. in length, width, and height, a city of these gigantic proportions can not be located on this earth let alone an army to be gathered in Armageddon against it as new jerusalem would cover this entire area they would have to be in the city to be gathered.....commom sense must prevail

Further your understanding of New Jerusalem being a city is actually not a city....the dimensions of this New Jerusalem are people.


Turning back to Zech 12, clearly the current city Jerusalem is still in view and still very much standing and protected by God.

12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

 

[Dcopymope]

Im referring to the actual city.

I see you still have not provided me scripture of a second witness Jerusalem has been called Babylon.

Further no where in Zechariah 12 does it state New Jerualem

Further if we go by the size of new Jerusalem, New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is 2225 km. in length, width, and height, a city of these gigantic proportions can not be located on this earth let alone an army to be gathered in Armageddon against it as new jerusalem would cover this entire area they would have to be in the city to be gathered.....commom sense must prevail

Further your understanding of New Jerusalem being a city is actually not a city....the dimensions of this New Jerusalem are people.


Turning back to Zech 12, clearly the current city Jerusalem is still in view and still very much standing and protected by God.

12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

An army will not be gathered against New Jerusalem in the battle of Armageddon. New Jerusalem doesn't even come into the picture until well afterwards. They gather to do battle with the the Lord when he returns with his army from heaven. That has to occur before new Jerusalem even becomes relevant. Get your theory screwed on straight in line with the chronology of events first before accusing others theories of not fitting with yours. And as I've made very clear before, New Jerusalem most certainly will be a place established on earth. Its not going to be some floating object in the sky like out of some science fiction novel. If it were so, then there wouldn't be people going to and from the city on a daily basis to eat from the tree of life...from OUTSIDE the city in the last chapter of the book. There wouldn't even be a need for the city to have twelve foundations with gates and walls for crying out loud. What, are you going to claim those outside the city will magically float up into the sky like superman? Yes, let reason and logic prevail once. Its something seriously lacking within the Christian community, and it needs to get its head screwed on straight, quick, before claiming to be the "body of Christ", who is the author of logic.

 

[inchrist]

An army will not be gathered against New Jerusalem in the battle of Armageddon. New Jerusalem doesn't even come into the picture until well afterwards. They gather to do battle with the the Lord when he returns with his army from heaven. That has to occur before new Jerusalem even becomes relevant. Get your theory screwed on straight in line with the chronology of events first before accusing others theories of not fitting with yours.

Then do you not see your problem?

Return back to zech 12

Explain why Jerusalem still exists and is protected by God and not utterly destroyed like Babylon?

Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

Im still waiting for your second witness as scripture demands that Jerusalem is called Babylon

New Jerusalem most certainly will be a place established on earth.

Yes New Jerusalem will be established on earth, but new Jerusalem is not a City as you seem to think.....Ill give you a clue.... what were the measurements the Hebrews worked with? Cubit is a further clue.

 

[the_sign]

A beast in prophecy symbolizes a kingdom, hence why this beast in the book of Daniel was said to symbolize a kingdom,

"He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth... (Daniel 7:23 [NIV])

And before they burn the Vatican with fire, they will first make her naked by exposing something shameful about her and will then will devour her flesh by ransacking her. This is one of the final signs before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

When quoting the Book of Daniel and attempting to apply a sermon, you will find it helpful to be able to ask yourself these questions and to be able to answer them accurately :

Am I one of Daniel's people described to be in the latter days as foretold in Daniel 10:14?

Do I have a perspective to be able to give an accurate account of the fulfillment of those things foretold to befall Daniel's people in Daniel 10:14?

And also ask yourself those same questions with regard to every historical document in the Vatican Archives.

 

[cga]

When quoting the Book of Daniel and attempting to apply a sermon, you will find it helpful to be able to ask yourself these questions and to be able to answer them accurately :

Am I one of Daniel's people described to be in the latter days as foretold in Daniel 10:14?

Do I have a perspective to be able to give an accurate account of the fulfillment of those things foretold to befall Daniel's people in Daniel 10:14?

And also ask yourself those same questions with regard to every historical document in the Vatican Archives.

Please, by all means, tell me where I am incorrect in my interpretation, and offer up your detailed interpretation as I have.

 

[the_sign]

Please, by all means, tell me where I am incorrect in my interpretation, and offer up your detailed interpretation as I have.

I am not under your command.

 

[cga]

I am not under your command.

Are you just finding any reason to object because you have nothing for me? This isn't about me commanding you, nor about you obeying me, it's about having a healthy discussion. You say I am in error, then offer up an intelligent detailed interpretation to oppose my detailed interpretation.

 

[the_sign]

Please, by all means, tell me where I am incorrect in my interpretation, and offer up your detailed interpretation as I have.

Having been said Antichrist in the topic title and having come to know my end in that regard as per the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., its being in the last few days of this present Liturgical Year (the First Liturgical Year of the Judgment), even as early as September 1, 2015 A.D., what I call the Final Day of Indiction, the formal date of the beginning of the Liturgical Year for the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church.

But one might wonder where and when such revealing foretold ("he shall reveal himself in his own time") occured : in Courtroom 12 of the Chester County Court of Common Pleas, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, in the spring of 2013 A.D. (also in associated District Court 15-2-01).

In such course of understanding I have often questioned the necessity of quoting a Book which includes a warning not to add nor detract to it.

The unsealing of the Book of Daniel as to the exact day (the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12) foretold through prophet Daniel some 2,500 years ago has been a real event with virtually no press coverage save for my efforts to share it, yet there are those who seem reckless in attempting to draw upon seeming endless allegories from the Book of Revelation.

(to put it another way, why spend time musing about unsealing 7 seals when all you need to understand is the only seal which really has been opened)

My two questions put to you are in effort to prioritize what can be presented as accurate.

Take all the current online articles regarding the Three Days of Darkness and one can only conclude that we are only one week away from being in the throes of what has been foretold concerning those 72 hours; but then again, such articles can be interpolated to a later time, even spread across the eternity of the future.

For all you "no one knows but the Father" quoters out there :

http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t162-the-intellect-and-the-return-of-the-son-of-man