The importance of context...

[Robbie]

Word Aspen...

And the fullness of that is actually that God never tempts us... haha

The other thing is the suffering we experience from someone using their free will to rebel against God doesn't come from Him either... so when someone disobeys God and murders, or rapes it's not God even giving it to us... it's someone rejecting God that's causing the experience... every good thing comes from God... all the evil we've experienced has come from humanities rebellion against God so to imply it comes from God at all is not right... it's baring false witness against God...

The thing is because we're all connected on this planet we suffer at the expense of other people's rebellion... a company decides to be reckless and pollute the ocean and we all suffer... that's not God giving us something evil... God gave us a beautiful healthy ocean... it's our reckless rebellion that steels, kills and destroys... not what we receive from God...

 

[marksman]

And, yes there is a difference between shepherding and teaching but the shepherd better know how to feed his lambs or we will have allot of sick lambs around.

I have yet to see a shepherd who preaches to his sheep. The ones I have seen make sure they have something to eat and drink and make sure some wild animal doesn't kill them.

In

cidentally, just a aside, the word pastor is a Latin word imported into the English Text. The Greek term in Eph 4:11, is poiménas and everywhere else in the NT is translated Shepherd.

I know, that why I don't use the word and why I don't address anyone as pastor.

Yes, Shepherds can teach and take care of their flock.

Yes, shepherds can do anything and too many churches make sure they do anything but that doesn't make it right. What is right is what the scripture says and that is very clear. To mature the saints and bring unity of faith you need apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers. The fact that we ignore this is probably why the church in the main is very innefective, is losing membership on a daily basis and is irrelevant to the people out there.

 

[Disciple]

Im gonna start using shephards instead of pastor as I read too, thanks I like it better.
I stopped going to church because its not how the bible says it should be.. I go to a litte church that meets once a month

 

[marksman]

Im gonna start using shephards instead of pastor as I read too, thanks I like it better. I stopped going to church because its not how the bible says it should be.. I go to a litte church that meets once a month

Good on ya' Disciple. The Sunday morning meeting is a sacred cow that is way past its used by date. Post modernists are not into ritual and religion. They want relationship and reality. You know, the sort that makes your Christian faith part of everyday life whether it is working, drinking coffee, exercising, talking the kids for a walk, doing the gardening for a housebound widow etc. etc.

I am going to a house fellowship birthday party tonight for a slap up meal. No false pretensions there and back of heads fellowship.

 

[Robbie]

Interesting points Marksman...

I have a good friend who has shared with me similar views... the first thing he ever did was tell me to look up how many times it said the word pastor in the bible (once) and that there was a separate distinction between pastor and teacher.

I also realized a while ago that for me going to church had nothing to do with fellowship... for me it was really shallow relationships and listening to someone lecture about the bible and world politics and how stupid catholics, muslims, mormons, and jehovas witnesses were for an hour... I did like the singing together to God though.

But to me fellowship is the people in my every day life... my friends and family who I trust and who I know love me enough that I feel comfortable enough to live completely in the light with about my deepest thoughts and darkest secrets... I believe that if I don't live in the light with someone I don't even really have fellowship with them... they don't even really know me...

 

[revturmoil]

I have a good friend who has shared with me similar views... the first thing he ever did was tell me to look up how many times it said the word pastor in the bible (once) and that there was a separate distinction between pastor and teacher.

Actually the word is Strong's #H7462 and is used 8 times in Jeremiah. H7462 'pastor' (pasture) is also the same word as the following words and how often they are used.

AV — feed 75, shepherd 63, pastor 8, herdmen 7, keep 3, companion 2, broken 1, company 1, devour 1, eat 1, entreateth 1, misc 10

I also realized a while ago that for me going to church had nothing to do with fellowship... for me it was really shallow relationships and listening to someone lecture about the bible and world politics and how stupid catholics, muslims, mormons, and jehovas witnesses were for an hour... I did like the singing together to God though.

You must have been going to a fundamentalist Baptist Church. I go to one now and then and all I ever hear is how Billy Graham is a false prophet, and how bad Catholic's, Pentecostal's, Mormon's, and JW's are.

It gets to the point of being offensive sometime.

 

[Robbie]

Interesting information...

The word he was actually talking about was used in Ephesians 4:11 though...

I guess that's a different word than the one used in Jeremiah because it didn't reference it on your link?

I actually typed in the word Pastor on that blue bible website and it said it wasn't anywhere in the NKJV?

Biblegateway shows it in Ephesians...

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

 

[revturmoil]

Interesting information...

The word he was actually talking about was used in Ephesians 4:11 though...

I guess that's a different word than the one used in Jeremiah because it didn't reference it on your link?

I actually typed in the word Pastor on that blue bible website and it said it wasn't anywhere in the NKJV?

Biblegateway shows it in Ephesians...

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

You do have to click around a bit to see it all. You have a few options to retrieve information. Some links give you more info than others.

Blue letter offers a host of bible study tools. Click around on it and see the different tools you have in studying God's Word.

Eph 4:11.
http://www.bluelette...4&v=11&t=KJV#11

The program wouldn't let me post what I wanted. It said too many images.

 

[Robbie]

I can't figure it out... can you find out which word is Pastor in Ephesians and how many times it's used?

I'd also be interested in which word is Pastor and which word is Teacher in Ephesians 4:11

No worries if you don't feel like it... I'll eventually try to figure it out...

 

[revturmoil]

Here is the link.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eph&c=4&v=11&t=KJV#11

click on 4166 near the word pastor. Then scroll down the page and look where it say's "Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 18" and it will break it down for you.

AV — shepherd 15, Shepherd 2, pastor 1

When using Strong's near the verse you'll see the letters K C L V D? Click on those for 'help'

Pastor's is G4166 and the same word as shepherd (17 times) and translated pastor once in the NT.

 

[jacobtaylor]

Whats being missed in my opinion is the NT and OT are not the same language. Your presuming the definition is the same in both, but the words are not in the same language as well. You need to determine what word in Greek = pastor, then determine that words equivalent in Hebrew.I believe its problematic simply because the NT church is not the same as the Levitical system of the OT. Because the two systems " NT church vs Old Levitical church" are so different I don,t believe you can find an equivalent. Good luck but I think your comparison is in vein from NT to OT.

 

[Robbie]

So that makes sense why when I did a search in biblegateway it only came up with pastor once for the whole bible... and that's probably what he told me and I just was mistaken... that the word used for pastor in Ephesians was only once in the New Testament... it was a while back when we were talking about that stuff... but you had me wondering because the dudes pretty smart about the bible... haha... thanks for the correction... and thanks for the link and info about that website...

 

[revturmoil]

Whats being missed in my opinion is the NT and OT are not the same language. Your presuming the definition is the same in both, but the words are not in the same language as well. You need to determine what word in Greek = pastor, then determine that words equivalent in Hebrew.I believe its problematic simply because the NT church is not the same as the Levitical system of the OT. Because the two systems " NT church vs Old Levitical church" are so different I don,t believe you can find an equivalent. Good luck but I think your comparison is in vein from NT to OT.

I think you're misunderstanding our discussion. We aren't saying the definition is the same in both. I did say that pastor is 'pasture' in the OT, and shepherd in the NT. We are very aware they are not the same language.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I think you're misunderstanding our discussion. We aren't saying the definition is the same in both. I did say that pastor is 'pasture' in the OT, and shepherd in the NT. We are very aware they are not the same language.

Or the same type of church system I hope. You simply can't say the Levitical system was the same as the NT church. Or maybe you can? I personally don't believe they were anything alike. Its comparing apples to oranges.

 

[marksman]

Or the same type of church system I hope. You simply can't say the Levitical system was the same as the NT church. Or maybe you can? I personally don't believe they were anything alike. Its comparing apples to oranges.

That is my understanding too. Before Christ, there were a myriad of religions that were like peas in a pod. They all had "priests" who were set apart as something special. They all had purpose built buildings for their rituals. They all had religous rituals that adherants had to submit themselves to.

When the veil of the temple was torn in two, God was abolishing the old levitical system and replacing it with a new temple-the heart of man, and replacing the priests with one high priest-Jeus himself. According to church history accounts, this is what distinguished the followers of "The Way" from the other religions. No priesthood, no temple and no ritual.

When you think about it, the modern church is nothing more than a resurrection of the OT levitical methodology as it has all the same trappings as that religious expression.