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Featured The Inconsistency of Antichrist's Covenant

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Phoneman777, Jul 15, 2020.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Distant from Daniel's day, but not ours. The 70 Weeks are connected to and cut off from the 2,300 Days, both beginning with Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree. Jesus fulfilled the 70 Weeks, the end of which seeing the Gospel being carried to the Gentiles.

    The 2,300 Days were also fulfilled by Jesus - the antitypical "Day of Atonement" where our High Priest Jesus began cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary in the Most Holy Place at "the time of the end" which is synonymous with the "Judgment".

    It is by this prophecy that Christians worldwide began preaching in the middle of the 19th century that Jesus was soon to return (ignorant of the Heavenly Sanctuary, they thought the Earth was the subject of "unto two thousand three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" and it was concluded that Jesus was coming back soon to cleanse the Earth with fire at His Second Coming). The entire Christian world laughed and mocked and insisted that His return would not be until after the One Thousand Years Of Peace, and idea many assumed true due to the severe drop off in the 1,000+ years Papal persecution of the faithful and the relative "peace" that the church had begun to enjoy. It wasn't until the preaching of the young Billy Graham that people began jumping on the bandwagon, but sadly they are today just as those doubters were back then...they refused to accept Jesus' soon return then, and people refuse to accept the Papacy is the Antichrist now, preferring to preach and teach Jesuit ideas about a future Antichrist.
     
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Here's is what destroys men's doctrines that wrongly assumes the working of the "vile person" in Daniel 11 was fulfilled history:

    Matt 24:15
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    KJV

    Mark 13:14
    14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    KJV

    Dan 8:9-14
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, 'How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?'
    14 And he said unto me, 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'
    KJV


    Dan 9:27
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    KJV

    Dan 11:21
    21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

    KJV


    Dan 11:31-39
    31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
    33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
    34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
    35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
    36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
    38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
    39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
    KJV


    In those Scriptures above, Jesus quoted those events about that false one ending sacrifices in Jerusalem and placing an idol abomination instead for false worship. Antiochus IV is who men's doctrines wrongly assume fulfilled all that, but they make a HUGE MISTAKE. They simply forget that Antiochus IV had already been dead about 200 years when Lord Jesus prophesied of that event for a time future to His 1st coming. Nor did the Romans fulfill it in 70 A.D. like Preterists like to lie about, because the temple burned down before the Romans could get possession of it, and a standing Jewish temple IS ... required, to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus said.

    So this is what those of us who stick to God's Word do with those on men's doctrines with this matter, Preterists here are continuously going around in circles trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole!
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    No, no, no, you cannot just do a play on the word 'confirm' from Daniel 9:27 like that, the idea of confirming in those other Scriptures is in DIFFERENT CONTEXTS. In the Daniel 9:27 verse, it is NOT Jesus that is doing the confirming of the covenant, it is the same one who does the abomination of desolation! Don't listen to those crazy SDA teachings, they don't have a clue about that Scripture.

    The idea of Dan.9:27 confirming the covenant is by a false one, not Jesus. The same one who confirms there in Dan.9 is also the same one who causes the ending of sacrifices and placing of the abomination of desolation. Back in Daniel 8 that act was first mentioned by the "little horn"...

    Dan 8:9-14
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
    KJV


    That is the same event of Daniel 9:27 involving the final Antichrist ending sacrifices and placing the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem that Jesus 'warned' us of. Now HOW can that be about Lord Jesus doing that when He WARNED us about that future event in His Olivet discourse?????


    The doctrine your pushing about those events in Daniel comes from 'cults' like SDA, not from God's Word.
     
  4. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Bro, we are dirt. We are made from the earth, we were made to work in the earth, animated mud is all we are. Grubby is good.
     
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  5. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    That's not word play..words mean things. Daniel says the covenant is confirmed, not "made".
    There is no "false one" mentioned here: the only two subjects here are Prince Jesus or Prince Titus and his Roman army. That is it.
    Absolutely agree: It was Jesus Who confirmed His covenant of grace and it was Jesus' sacrifice that caused the sacrifices and oblation to cease. They may have continued killing lambs and continued offering them on altars, but in the sight of God it was nothing more than an extravagant, glorified BBQ.
    The Little Horn of Daniel 8 is the Papacy, so not sure what is your point.
    Jesus was the Ultimate Sacrifice to which all others pointed. The idea that subsequent sacrifices and a subsequent rebuilt temple as having any prophetic significance just serves to establish that God has more regard for the opinions of those that murdered our Savior than He does His own truth. Subsequent sacrifices are meaningless, as would be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem which God would never refer to as "the temple of God" in which blasphemous sacrifices are expected to resume. The AoD revolved around the destruction of Jerusalem, and will again pertain to God's global faithful. "What is local and literal in the OT is spiritual and world wide in the NT."
    Then they should be easily disproved, right? But, so far, not the case :)
     
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  6. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to pull out verses 21 then verses 31-39 to make them fit your one character in the future, then what of the other verses in between? What's that about? You are a classic cherry picker...a little bit here and there to fit your narrative. That's not the way to study scripture and it's certainly not the way God reveals important stuff to warm us of the dangers to our faith. God is far more consistent and logical and orderly in His prophecy than you give Him credit for. Verse 21 is about one specific person in history, verses 31-39 another character. And the abomination of desolation is not an individual but an army. Luke shows this in his gospel. Compare all the references to that abomination that makes desolate, don't add anything else to them, and it becomes clear. The abomination I'm the time of the apostles was the Roman army in 66ad? I think. When the Christians in Jerusalem saw the city surrounded, they indeed fled and were saved from the destruction that followed a few years later from Titus.
    There is a spiritual application however that applies to the church in the near future. The global church surrounded by a global enemy.
    This isn't preterism. Learn hermeutics.
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Actually the Bible does say that. The covenant is established in chapter 8:23-25 and confirmed in chapter 9. But the establishment of the covenant is not stated EXPLICITLY (as are many things in the Bible). God expects His people to have the discernment to see what is implied. If a policy is crafty, the truth is not stated overtly or explictly.

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify
    himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    What does this passage reveal?
    1. The Antichrist is here called "the king of fierce countenance"
    2. This man has tremendous power -- "his power shall be mighty"
    3. Bur he does not operate by his own power
    4. He is given his supernatural power by Satan (Rev 13)
    5. He has a very definite crafty policy* or agenda

    [Note: policy = שִׂכְל֗וֹ (śiḵ-lōw) = cunning or craftiness]
    6. He uses craft (or guile) to implement his policy
    7. He establishes a bogus covenant of peace to destroy many.
    8. That covenant allows the Jews to maintain their temple sacrifices and offering for seven years. (Dan 9:27)
    9. After 3 1/2 years he breaks that covenant and causes the sacrifices to cease in order to set up the Abomination of Desolation (Dan 9:27)
    10. This man opposes Christ -- the Prince of princes -- hence he is indeed the Antichrist.

    "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full" tells us that this is a future event when God is ready to pour out His judgments because sin, evil, and wickedness have reached their zenith on earth. Just as God unleashed the Flood of Noah's day after 120 years, God is allowing sin and evil to continue to increase until the transgressors are come to the full.
     
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  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The idea of a confirming a covenant in Daniel 9:27 is about confirming the 'old covenant', NOT the New Covenant. The manuscript word "confirm" means 'to prevail, or make strong' (Strong's no.1396). And since it then speaks of the daily sacrifices being ended and false idol worship setup instead, it is about the old covenant, not the New Covenant.

    There is nothing... there that relates to Lord Jesus making or confirming an existing covenant in Jerusalem. Don't you realize what the unbelieving Jews in Judea did to Jesus when He offered them the New Covenant??? So He certainly did not make, nor confirm, ANY covenant with them. And Jerusalem-Judea is who that Daniel prophecy is SPECIFICALLY about. It is NOT about the Christian Church. We are to study the Daniel prophecies that are about Judah and Jerusalem for SIGNS of the end. And that applies to Christ's servants in that area especially.

    For the rest of your post, I'm not going to argue with your denials of Bible Scripture and history. The Roman army under Titus did NOT fulfill the "vile person" - "little horn" prophecies in Daniel. Nor did Antiochus Epiphanes, otherwise Jesus would not have warned about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel 200 years AFTER Antiochus had been dead!
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    There you go again, accusing others of the very thing YOU yourself are guilty of! By Preterists like yourself who refuse to cover the Daniel Scripture I have shown as evidence against your doctrine of men, you do MASTER CHERRY PICKIN' & GRININ'.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    If "animated mud" is all we are, then it would mean we have no soul which continues after flesh death that Jesus spoke of (Matthew 10:28). I think I'll listen to my Lord Jesus instead of men's doctrines like yours.
     
  11. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't a doctrinal dissertation.
     
  12. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    OK, so we're supposed to ignore God's explicit promise of His New Covenant of Grace in Jeremiah and trust that it is some fictitious, non-existent "implicit" Little Horn covenant of Daniel 8, to which Daniel 9 points?
    There's a fine line between "discernment" and "deception".

    Daniel 9 plainly demonstrates that the 70 Weeks are cut off from the larger 2,300 Days in order to squash Daniel's (and posterity's) fear, doubt, and confusion about whether the larger could actually be fulfilled --- due to his horrific vision of the total decimation of God's people at the hands of the Little Horn --- by showing that as assuredly as the 70 Weeks would come to pass with Messiah's arrival and 7 year confirmation of the New Covenant of Grace (3 1/2 years in Person and 3 1/2 years "by them that heard Him" according to Hebrews 2:3 KJV)...so too would the entire 2,300 Days just as assuredly come to pass and culminate with the Cleansing of the Sanctuary.
    Just as one will search the Bible in vain for a "gap" inserted in any Numerically Specific Time Prophecy, we will search in vain for an instance where Satan makes a covenant with God's people...to the contrary, Job suggests that Leviathan (Satan) who stands invincible before puny humans scoffs at the idea...yet Jesuit Futurists insist on inserting a gap in Daniel 9 and insist on a covenant between Satan's Antichrist and God's people. I prefer prophecy as the Bible presents it: Christ-centered, not Antichrist-centered.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  13. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    What definition of preterism are you assuming applies to me when I specifically identified myself as historicist?
     
  14. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    What does it mean to "confirm a covenant"?
    Hebrews 9:16-17 --
    For where a (last will and) testament ("testament" and "covenant" are identical) is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    For a (last will and) testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.​
    Galatians 3:15 --
    Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.​

    Takeaways:
    A person can change his last will and testament (covenant) as much as he wants, but at his death, that testament becomes as adamant as stone.

    It is well known that Biblical covenants require bloodshed for their confirmation. The Old Covenant was "confirmed" or "ratified" by the blood of animals sprinkled on the Law and the poeple. Jesus came to "confirm" or "ratify" the New Covenant with His blood, after which it cannot be altered.

    Now, if you can find me just one verse where Satan makes a covenant with God's people or ratifies it with his bloodshed, I'll accept your argument, but since Job suggests Leviathan stands invincible before puny humans and scoffs at the idea of entering into any kind of covenant with them, I would suggest you give up your Jesuit ideas and accept Protestant Historicism as truth.
     
  15. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Well said, and if I might be so bold as to add something, that ratification... Confirmation if you will, took place 27ad. Nothing, absolutely nothing that the apostles taught, practiced, or wrote could change that covenant. And no-one else could change it or confirm it later either. Certainly not in some imaginary temple of God in the future. And even more definitely not in the true temple of God... His people.
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen that much of a difference between the two. Both do a play on trying to make 70 A.D. to represent the end of this world in prophecy like you did in your prior post.
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Nope, you cannot use that Scripture as an example of what is said in the Daniel 9:27 verse. Those are 2 different subjects. The subject in Daniel 9:27 is about a false one ending the sacrifices in Jerusalem and placing an idol abomination in its stead. If you say that was Lord Jesus who did that, then that would make you a 'little antichrist', because Jesus warned about that placing of the "abomination of desolation" by a future false one in Jerusalem in Matthew 24.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    So far in this thread, we see the vain attempt by Preterists (and Historicists) to rewrite Bible prophecy about the Daniel 9:27 event which is outlined also in the Daniel 8:9-14 verses about the symbolic "little horn", in Daniel 11:21-39 about the "vile person" who places the "abomination of desolation" idol in a standing temple in Jerusalem that Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse, and in Daniel 12 which establishes this abomination event for the very end of this present world.

    So when someone starts a discussion on the Daniel 9:27 events, it automatically includes that same event described in Dan.8:9-14, Daniel 11:21-31, and Daniel 12. ANY attempt to discard any one of those Scriptures involving the "abomination of desolation" subject by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the mark of adding and taking away in God's Word by men's doctrines.
     
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