The Influence of Islam on Christendom

[marks]

Whoever you say is going to hell is who you have condemned I guess,

Well, the thing is, I don't say that. I haven't said anyone is going to hell, so you are merely projecting that onto me and acting as if it's true, and there's nothing to be done about that. Nothing I can do anyway. You persist in making baseless accusations against me. I'm sorry that it's turned out this way.

In love, Mark

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My mistake then, sorry. I must be confusing you with someone else. I thought I had read you say that some men will go to hell.

 

[Episkopos]

My mistake then, sorry. I must be confusing you with someone else. I thought I had read you say that some men will go to hell.

And some will indeed be cast into the lake of fire. But that is not determined by our dogmatic appreciations or judgments. We are not the ideal against which all others are judged.

 

[bbyrd009]

indeed, huh
ok

In reality, I see a distinction in Scripture between those who are born again and those who are not.

makes it rather disingenuous, no offense, when you start objecting to the pit you have dug for others, in that case, bro. Fwiw you likely see a distinction that is based upon a definition you hold of "born again" that may not necessarily be valid, and imo the proof would be in whether you consider yourself one of the "born-agains?"

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, the thing is, I don't say that. I haven't said anyone is going to hell, so you are merely projecting that onto me and acting as if it's true, and there's nothing to be done about that. Nothing I can do anyway. You persist in making baseless accusations against me. I'm sorry that it's turned out this way.

In love, Mark

rolleyes
prolly terminal i guess, yikes
listen to yourself now bro

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have always assumed that everyone thinks to be born again means to receive the Holy Spirit...

 

[Giuliano]

I have always assumed that everyone thinks to be born again means to receive the Holy Spirit...

Jesus said those born of the Spirit can move like the wind. . . .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus said those born of the Spirit can move like the wind. . . .

Guiliano, you remind me of my dad sometimes. He passed away a few years back. Sometimes he would get some verse slightly wrong, but I would not be able to say much of anything about it, because in his utter simplicity, it somehow worked!

For instance, he said one time that in the end times, God said there would be tsunamis all over the world. I was pretty sure i'd never seen a verse that said that. After we sat searching about an hour, he still insisted the bible said it.

I told him there was a verse that talked about earthquakes, but not tsunamis. He said, that's it! Find that verse! I looked in Strongs and found it and he flipped his bible open. See, he said, there will be earthquakes in divers places! That means in the ocean, because divers dive in the ocean! And that creates tsunamis!

I was going to explain to him that his bible was old English and that the word was diverse, not divers, but I just didn't because he somehow had it wrong but right...!

But my dad was not a stupid man. He was just a simple man. So you remind me of him sometimes. You are intelligent but simple too.

 

[brakelite]

I have always assumed that everyone thinks to be born again means to receive the Holy Spirit...

More than that...
KJV 2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[amadeus]

indeed, huh
ok

makes it rather disingenuous, no offense, when you start objecting to the pit you have dug for others, in that case, bro. Fwiw you likely see a distinction that is based upon a definition you hold of "born again" that may not necessarily be valid, and imo the proof would be in whether you consider yourself one of the "born-agains?"

This "born again" thing really does hang people up at times. Instead of the ones claiming to be among the "born again" coming quickly and often together in His name, they seem often to butt their heads together even harder. This is not my imagination, is it? I would start a thread on the issue, but considering the headaches likely to occur, I wonder about the advisability of it. Ask God for direction, right?

 

[amadeus]

I have always assumed that everyone thinks to be born again means to receive the Holy Spirit...

Even if your assumption were true, would not some people would kick hard at the pricks? [See Acts 9:5] [Does that happen to people who have received the Holy Spirit?]

 

[Giuliano]

This "born again" thing really does hang people up at times. Instead of the ones claiming to be among the "born again" coming quickly and often together in His name, they seem often to butt their heads together even harder. This is not my imagination, is it? I would start a thread on the issue, but considering the headaches likely to occur, I wonder about the advisability of it. Ask God for direction, right?

The question I like to ask people is where "born again" is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said he expected Nicodemus should know about it. That tells me it is Old Testament material. If someone knows what it is, he should be able to find it somewhere in the Old Testament.

 

[Giuliano]

More than that...
KJV 2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What happened their bodies of flesh?

 

[brakelite]

What happened their bodies of flesh?

Lol. You really think that is what Paul is talking about?

 

[Episkopos]

The question I like to ask people is where "born again" is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said he expected Nicodemus should know about it. That tells me it is Old Testament material. If someone knows what it is, he should be able to find it somewhere in the Old Testament.

Agreed!

Psalm 87
87 His foundation is in the holy mountains.

2 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Even if your assumption were true, would not some people would kick hard at the pricks? [See Acts 9:5] [Does that happen to people who have received the Holy Spirit?]

I don't know. Sometimes I think no and other times I think yes, because of youth and leaven and arrogance not yet beaten from a man.

I just keep coming back to a newborn or a child. And that leads me to gentleness, even though it is not good to be too gentle with a child who disrupts the whole household at 9 years as he did at two months or 2 years.

 

[bbyrd009]

This "born again" thing really does hang people up at times. Instead of the ones claiming to be among the "born again" coming quickly and often together in His name, they seem often to butt their heads together even harder. This is not my imagination, is it? I would start a thread on the issue, but considering the headaches likely to occur, I wonder about the advisability of it. Ask God for direction, right?

imo its really simple, and we have a reliable guide in Scripture for these, who testify of themselves and commend themselves to each other. If someone assures you that they are saved, you may reliably assume that they are not, imo. I would even go further and say that they are likely or at least possibly some of the worst exmples of humanity extant, and likely trying to put one over on you, like anyone else flossing?

 

[Taken]

The question I like to ask people is where "born again" is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said he expected Nicodemus should know about it. That tells me it is Old Testament material. If someone knows what it is, he should be able to find it somewhere in the Old Testament.

Considering...OT was a Beginning Teaching...
Newly Created men, Likened to Teaching BABES.

We mimic Gods Beginning Teaching...
BABES (little immature children) to a BASIC INTRODUCTION ... BEFORE attempting to introduce UNDERSTANDING.

OT was about the Basic INTRODUCTION.

OT was ALSO hinged ON TRUSTING the Knowledge.

Parents of Children are charged with INTRODUCING their Children TO the TRUTH.

Children WILL TRUST the TRUTH from the Parents.........UNTIL such time, they Discover Parents Lie, Cheat, Steal, Swingle, Deceive...etc. Then will Children begin to NOT Trust a Parent....(and we hear all the time, a Parent say, they did NOT raise their Child LIKE "THAT". Yes they DID, by Example).

BORN AGAIN, (the words) are not in the OT.

However the INTRODUCTION to "BORN AGAIN" IS in the OT.

After reading the MEANING of "BORN AGAIN"....we can THEN LOOK BACK into the OT, and see what OT men WERE INTRODUCED TO.

The UNDERSTANDING of BORN AGAIN IS:
The precise moment a Human man, is the Recipient of Gods SEED, that BIRTHS the mans Natural spirit, to a Spiritual spirit.

The INTRODUCTION of BORN AGAIN IS:
Seen in:

Numerous OT Scriptures...
Beginning with ... men of God
Deut. 33:1
Judges 13:6
1 Sam 2:27
1 Kings 12:22
2 Kings 4:9
2 Chr 8:14
Ezra 3:2
Neh 12:24
Jer 35:4

The OT Scriptures reveal WHAT SET men APART, and they BEING seen and called "men of God".

In the OT, It was NOT about them having BEEN "BORN AGAIN", (recipients of Gods SEED), but rather "THOSE" men, TRUSTING God, that THEY were being SET APART, being PREPARED, and God was "WITH" them, as long as THEIR "TRUST" in Him....HIS WAY...
Even when they YET did not "UNDERSTAND".

God created man...
Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
God Began Teaching Adam...ONLY Gods TRUTH.
Then revealed IS; Adam LISTENING to something OTHER, than Gods TRUTH...
And from Adam forward, mankind BECAME "LIKE" Adam.
Gen 5
[3] And Adam ...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;

Mankinds "LIKENESS" and "IMAGE" changed from Gods Truth...to Something Opposite of Gods TRUTH.

And the WHOLE purpose of Gods WORD, is to REVEAL to mankind... God has provided a WAY for mankind to be RECONCILLED BACK into Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE.

Human men HAVE NOT SEEN Gods LIKENESS or Gods IMAGE...thus it IS a difficult teaching to TEACH men HOW TO BE something, THEY can NOT Hear or See.

God began by Teaching men...
THIS or THAT WILL HAPPEN.
And men would WAIT TO SEE IF that Happened or not.

Over 100 times in the OT men were told... something "SHALL COME TO PASS".

Numbers 11:23 is the LORD teaching men...
Wait and See for things to COME TO PASS.

(And BTW Jesus repeated the SAME inference for men to wait and see)

John 10:
[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:

OT IS the KNOWLEDGE of mankinds Creation...in Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE and TRUTH.

OT IS the KNOWLEDGE of mankinds FALL from Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE and TRUST IN God.

OT IS the INTRODUCTION...of GODS "WAY" of reconcillation of mankind unto God.

Gen 3
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gods "WAY" is always His TRUTH.
Gods "WAY" is always "SETTING APART" mankind...who TRUST God, from...mankind who DOES NOT TRUST God.

The "setting APART", is accomplished BY...
DIVISION...and ultimately SEPARATION.

God SENT "HIS WAY", to earth in the LIKENESS...as a "FAITHFUL" man...

Expressly, for ALL of mankinds EXAMPLE to Hear "AND" See "AND" Do as He did.

(Because Remember, men ONLY Hearing was not BY a mans standard...sufficient enough...
MEN wanted to SEE God...and God retorted, that men who were NOT satisfied with ONLY Hearing...were stiffnecked.)
Ex:32:9
Ex 33: 3 & 5
Ex 34: 9
Deut. 9:6
Deut. 9:13
Deut 10:16
1 Chron 30:8
Acts 7:51

OT Teaching...of Knowledge...WITHOUT Understandning.

Daniel 12:2
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ezek 36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

NT Teaching of KNOWLEDGE, with some understanding.

Romans 8
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Righteousness...goodness..friend of God...beloved of God....

DID Apply to some OT MEN....whom God was WITH THEM...and them "prepared" to be "BORN AGAIN".

Righteousness...goodness...friend of God...beloved of God....

DID APPLY to some NT MEN...whom God was "IN" THEM...

Scriptural Teaching is clear...
OT men WHOM God remained "WITH" because of a mans TRUST IN GOD...
Such a man was PREPARED to Receive a Quickened Spirit....

Scriptural Teaching is clear...
NO MAN, could Receive a Quickened Spirit...
(Via the SEED of God)...UNTIL...

AFTER Jesus, (the WAY, TRUTH, LIFE, SPIRIT, WISDOM, SEED of God)...

was Manifested on Earth To mankind, in the likeness as a man...Any man has the Option to follow His Example, and Receive the INDWELLING of Gods Spirit....BEFORE their physical Death...

And ^^ THAT gift was expressly revealed Available to All of mankind......AFTER Jesus Left the Earth.

Jesus IS FIRST in ALL things...
OT men had to Wait for Jesus' earthly manifestation.
NT men had to Wait for Jesus' manifestation AND Return to Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

The question I like to ask people is where "born again" is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said he expected Nicodemus should know about it. That tells me it is Old Testament material. If someone knows what it is, he should be able to find it somewhere in the Old Testament.

Well one might say that the natural children of Israel had their opportunity for a new start [a new birth?] when they crossed the Red Sea out of Egypt [sin-death], but perhaps even more so when they left the wilderness [beastly life] and entered the Promised Land [into the Spirit to overcome and finally kill their beastly old man and build the new]. Are there many people preaching that message today among the Jews or among the Christians?

Consider also these verses:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezek 36:24-27
Of course some people might not like those verses if they might seem to support baptism by sprinkling instead of by dunking. Do we want to make everyone happy or do we want to do what God wants us to do?

Or consider the need for the sons of Aaron [priests] to wash themselves [hands and feet] in the laver so as not to die when they make sacrifice at the altar... [see Ex 30:18-21]

But then consider these:

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 104:29-30

Also consider the valley of dry bones in Ezek 37:1-14

 

[Giuliano]

Well one might say that the natural children of Israel had their opportunity for a new start [a new birth?] when they crossed the Red Sea out of Egypt [sin-death], but perhaps even more so when they left the wilderness [beastly life] and entered the Promised Land [into the Spirit to overcome and finally kill their beastly old man and build the new]. Are there many people preaching that message today among the Jews or among the Christians?

Consider also these verses:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezek 36:24-27
Of course some people might not like those verses if they might seem to support baptism by sprinkling instead of by dunking. Do we want to make everyone happy or do we want to do what God wants us to do?

Or consider the need for the sons of Aaron [priests] to wash themselves [hands and feet] in the laver so as not to die when they make sacrifice at the altar... [see Ex 30:18-21]

But then consider these:

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 104:29-30

Also consider the valley of dry bones in Ezek 37:1-14

I would put the precise time at Sinai when they did not want to hear the trumpet.

Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Some say Israel "wandered" in the wilderness. The word actually is "grazed." They were still following the Cloud; but they did not want to hear the Voice of God for themselves.

People read the account and think of "Mount Sinai" as only a physical mountain. Exodus says they were "under" the mountain. I believe that. I say the people wanted to remain next to the physical mountain and were afraid of the spiritual "mountain" that was "above" them.

I say too that Moses was not afraid of the sound of the trumpet and was "caught up in the air" to meet the Lord. Was he also not changed?

I would say Moses was born of the Spirit. The rest of Israel was not. They had more work to do before they could enter the "rest" David wrote of in the Psalm. Will they be saved? Of course. All Israel will be saved at some time; but the way is narrow and few find it in this life.