The Influence of Islam on Christendom

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Giuliano

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Considering...OT was a Beginning Teaching...
Newly Created men, Likened to Teaching BABES.

We mimic Gods Beginning Teaching...
BABES (little immature children) to a BASIC INTRODUCTION ... BEFORE attempting to introduce UNDERSTANDING.

OT was about the Basic INTRODUCTION.

OT was ALSO hinged ON TRUSTING the Knowledge.

Parents of Children are charged with INTRODUCING their Children TO the TRUTH.

Children WILL TRUST the TRUTH from the Parents.........UNTIL such time, they Discover Parents Lie, Cheat, Steal, Swingle, Deceive...etc. Then will Children begin to NOT Trust a Parent....(and we hear all the time, a Parent say, they did NOT raise their Child LIKE "THAT". Yes they DID, by Example).

BORN AGAIN, (the words) are not in the OT.

However the INTRODUCTION to "BORN AGAIN" IS in the OT.

After reading the MEANING of "BORN AGAIN"....we can THEN LOOK BACK into the OT, and see what OT men WERE INTRODUCED TO.

The UNDERSTANDING of BORN AGAIN IS:
The precise moment a Human man, is the Recipient of Gods SEED, that BIRTHS the mans Natural spirit, to a Spiritual spirit.

The INTRODUCTION of BORN AGAIN IS:
Seen in:

Numerous OT Scriptures...
Beginning with ... men of God
Deut. 33:1
Judges 13:6
1 Sam 2:27
1 Kings 12:22
2 Kings 4:9
2 Chr 8:14
Ezra 3:2
Neh 12:24
Jer 35:4

The OT Scriptures reveal WHAT SET men APART, and they BEING seen and called "men of God".

In the OT, It was NOT about them having BEEN "BORN AGAIN", (recipients of Gods SEED), but rather "THOSE" men, TRUSTING God, that THEY were being SET APART, being PREPARED, and God was "WITH" them, as long as THEIR "TRUST" in Him....HIS WAY...
Even when they YET did not "UNDERSTAND".
Why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about it then?

God created man...
Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
God Began Teaching Adam...ONLY Gods TRUTH.
Then revealed IS; Adam LISTENING to something OTHER, than Gods TRUTH...
And from Adam forward, mankind BECAME "LIKE" Adam.
Gen 5
[3] And Adam ...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;

Mankinds "LIKENESS" and "IMAGE" changed from Gods Truth...to Something Opposite of Gods TRUTH.

And the WHOLE purpose of Gods WORD, is to REVEAL to mankind... God has provided a WAY for mankind to be RECONCILLED BACK into Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE.

Human men HAVE NOT SEEN Gods LIKENESS or Gods IMAGE...thus it IS a difficult teaching to TEACH men HOW TO BE something, THEY can NOT Hear or See.

God began by Teaching men...
THIS or THAT WILL HAPPEN.
And men would WAIT TO SEE IF that Happened or not.

Over 100 times in the OT men were told... something "SHALL COME TO PASS".

Numbers 11:23 is the LORD teaching men...
Wait and See for things to COME TO PASS.

(And BTW Jesus repeated the SAME inference for men to wait and see)

John 10:
[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:

OT IS the KNOWLEDGE of mankinds Creation...in Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE and TRUTH.

OT IS the KNOWLEDGE of mankinds FALL from Gods LIKENESS and IMAGE and TRUST IN God.

OT IS the INTRODUCTION...of GODS "WAY" of reconcillation of mankind unto God.

Gen 3
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gods "WAY" is always His TRUTH.
Gods "WAY" is always "SETTING APART" mankind...who TRUST God, from...mankind who DOES NOT TRUST God.

The "setting APART", is accomplished BY...
DIVISION...and ultimately SEPARATION.

God SENT "HIS WAY", to earth in the LIKENESS...as a "FAITHFUL" man...

Expressly, for ALL of mankinds EXAMPLE to Hear "AND" See "AND" Do as He did.

(Because Remember, men ONLY Hearing was not BY a mans standard...sufficient enough...
MEN wanted to SEE God...and God retorted, that men who were NOT satisfied with ONLY Hearing...were stiffnecked.)
Ex:32:9
Ex 33: 3 & 5
Ex 34: 9
Deut. 9:6
Deut. 9:13
Deut 10:16
1 Chron 30:8
Acts 7:51

OT Teaching...of Knowledge...WITHOUT Understandning.

Daniel 12:2
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ezek 36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

NT Teaching of KNOWLEDGE, with some understanding.

Romans 8
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Righteousness...goodness..friend of God...beloved of God....

DID Apply to some OT MEN....whom God was WITH THEM...and them "prepared" to be "BORN AGAIN".

Righteousness...goodness...friend of God...beloved of God....

DID APPLY to some NT MEN...whom God was "IN" THEM...

Scriptural Teaching is clear...
OT men WHOM God remained "WITH" because of a mans TRUST IN GOD...
Such a man was PREPARED to Receive a Quickened Spirit....

Scriptural Teaching is clear...
NO MAN, could Receive a Quickened Spirit...
(Via the SEED of God)...UNTIL...

AFTER Jesus, (the WAY, TRUTH, LIFE, SPIRIT, WISDOM, SEED of God)...

was Manifested on Earth To mankind, in the likeness as a man...Any man has the Option to follow His Example, and Receive the INDWELLING of Gods Spirit....BEFORE their physical Death...
Notice that the expression "Son of man" is used by John when talking about "born again."

And ^^ THAT gift was expressly revealed Available to All of mankind......AFTER Jesus Left the Earth.

Jesus IS FIRST in ALL things...
OT men had to Wait for Jesus' earthly manifestation.
NT men had to Wait for Jesus' manifestation AND Return to Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken
How was Ezekiel called "son of man"? How was he able to move around in the Spirit?
 

Giuliano

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Lol. You really think that is what Paul is talking about?
He wrote "all things" -- naive me, I read it as "all."

What about the rest of the chapter? I think we may need to ask about the physical bodies. Paul is hard to understand, but I think he was including that.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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The question I like to ask people is where "born again" is found in the Old Testament. Jesus said he expected Nicodemus should know about it. That tells me it is Old Testament material. If someone knows what it is, he should be able to find it somewhere in the Old Testament.
Well one might say that the natural children of Israel had their opportunity for a new start [a new birth?] when they crossed the Red Sea out of Egypt [sin-death], but perhaps even more so when they left the wilderness [beastly life] and entered the Promised Land [into the Spirit to overcome and finally kill their beastly old man and build the new]. Are there many people preaching that message today among the Jews or among the Christians?

Consider also these verses:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezek 36:24-27
Of course some people might not like those verses if they might seem to support baptism by sprinkling instead of by dunking. Do we want to make everyone happy or do we want to do what God wants us to do?


Or consider the need for the sons of Aaron [priests] to wash themselves [hands and feet] in the laver so as not to die when they make sacrifice at the altar... [see Ex 30:18-21]

But then consider these:

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 104:29-30


Also consider the valley of dry bones in Ezek 37:1-14

I really like your answer here Amadeus!

It's like...the gospel was preached to them sort of, huh? But...as something that was to come, not yet, but something they anticipated...
 
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amadeus

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I don't know. Sometimes I think no and other times I think yes, because of youth and leaven and arrogance not yet beaten from a man.

I just keep coming back to a newborn or a child. And that leads me to gentleness, even though it is not good to be too gentle with a child who disrupts the whole household at 9 years as he did at two months or 2 years.
Some people who claim to be on the Lord's side may insist on bypassing childhood or that other bypass it. Spiritual childhood, I mean! No one, even with the best of parents, is ready to take his place as a functional profitable adult in the world of men at the age of 2 months, or 2 years or 9 years.

When a child is born into the world of fleshly men he begins to breath the air and he begins his life [natural/carnal] but he is far from maturity. Good loving parents recognize his limitations and work with him to help him grow correctly.

Is it not to be similarly so with a person newly born from above [born again]? This time it is not the natural air with its oxygen, but rather the very Breath of God [Holy Spirit] and a child is born, but very immature in God... a baby requiring milk. God loves him and the Mother [the Church?] will [hopefully] nourish him properly with the flesh and blood of Jesus.


At times a child of God will be led astray by other spirits, but a good Mother [older brothers and sisters in the Lord] will be there to head him off and redirect his steps toward God.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 18:3-4
 
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amadeus

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imo its really simple, and we have a reliable guide in Scripture for these, who testify of themselves and commend themselves to each other. If someone assures you that they are saved, you may reliably assume that they are not, imo. I would even go further and say that they are likely or at least possibly some of the worst exmples of humanity extant, and likely trying to put one over on you, like anyone else flossing?
People make too big of a thing about being "saved". If that is our focal point, it is pretty selfish, is it not? Our focus should be at least approaching the focus that Jesus had as described by Apostle Paul:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

Jesus did not sin, but Jesus was not selfish. He lived a life as a man of flesh who had the same desires that everyone of us have... but he really did "esteem others better" than he did himself. Instead of looking to our salvation, or bragging that we already have it, we should be seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, which are not salvation. Salvation is simply a reward that God may give to a person whose heart has been focused on the right first things. If our own salvation has been and continues to be first, we are lost for certain... whatever that means!
 
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Giuliano

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Some people who claim to be on the Lord's side may insist on bypassing childhood or that other bypass it. Spiritual childhood, I mean! No one, even with the best of parents, is ready to take his place as a functional profitable adult in the world of men at the age of 2 months, or 2 years or 9 years.

When a child is born into the world of fleshly men he begins to breath the air and he begins his life [natural/carnal] but he is far from maturity. Good loving parents recognize his limitations and work with him to help him grow correctly.

Is it not to be similarly so with a person newly born from above [born again]? This time it is not the natural air with its oxygen, but rather the very Breath of God [Holy Spirit] and a child is born, but very immature in God... a baby requiring milk. God loves him and the Mother [the Church?] will [hopefully] nourish him properly with the flesh and blood of Jesus.


At times a child of God will be led astray by other spirits, but a good Mother [older brothers and sisters in the Lord] will be there to head him off and redirect his steps toward God.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 18:3-4
This may strike some as odd, but I see Revelation 14 as showing some people being born of the Spirit. Notice that John is writing about wheat and grapes, bread and wine. Note too the curious phrase about "the dead which die in the Lord."

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I read it as a gloriously happy passage. What is worth saving is preserved. What is not worth saving is discarded. They are no longer only "takers" from the Body and Blood of Christ, they are now contributing their own bodies and blood to it.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The imagery of beheading is like the harvesting of wheat. Does it mean physically beheading? Maybe, maybe not, does it matter that much? Jesus offered His Spiritual Body and Blood before the physical crucifixion.

Had Paul attained this? When he wrote the following, he said he had not attained fully yet.

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
 

Taken

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Why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about it then?

Because Nichodmus testified, the Pharisees KNEW Jesus had come from God...
Because Jesus testified, the Pharisees had BEEN TOLD...
But that THEY REFUSED to Believe what they had been TOLD.

John 3
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; ....
and ye receive not our witness.

Notice that the expression "Son of man" is used by John when talking about "born again."
Jesus took upon Himself the seed of Abraham, making Jesus a Son of Abraham...
And Direct descendants of Abraham's FAITHFUL descendants...Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc....the Same whom are the (Fathful sons of Abraham), who are the Same, whom the Promise from God, was that Abraham would be a father of many nations.

It is the same seed, (Abraham's seed) Converted men in Christ, take upon themselves. (Aside from Gods SEED)...

A man receiving Gods SEED, is promised everlasting LIFE...they become Gods heirs, and Gods Inheritance.

A man taking upon himself the seed of Abraham, is promised to be a son of Abraham, and thus a heir of Abraham
...and all of Abraham's heirs are entitle to possession of the LAND God Promised Abraham and his heirs...
(Which BTW is WHERE Christ's earthly Kingdom shall be situated).

Jesus had to be made an Heir to Abraham's LAND, as well as Every man IN Christ must be made an Heir to Abraham's LAND....
Thus their ARE entitled to occupy that LAND...
During the millennial reign.

How was Ezekiel called "son of man"? How was he able to move around in the Spirit?

Every Human, that IS FAITHFUL...
IS from the Stock sperm seed of Abram or Abraham or a Gentile.

Be a man from Abrahams stock seed, AND Faithful...he is a son of man, that God designated and earthly father, by Promise.

Be a man from Abrahams stock seed, AND NOT Faithful...he is not accounted as son of Abraham, BY Promise.

Be a man A Gentile...the Promise of Abrahams' being their earthly father, was not given.

Be a man A Gentile....Converted in Righteousness of Christ....BY Promise IS a son of Abraham.

A Man, WITH God IS a man WHO...
Has Gods Spirit.....with him...
AND IF the man is Converted IN Christ...
He is a man who HAS Gods Spirit....IN him.

It's about following the Order and WAY of what was revealed, offered, given to men from the beginning and the increase of Gods revealing, offering and giving that allows men of today to have access to knowledge and understanding, that was not given to all OT men.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Giuliano

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Because Nichodmus testified, the Pharisees KNEW Jesus had come from God...
Because Jesus testified, the Pharisees had BEEN TOLD...
But that THEY REFUSED to Believe what they had been TOLD.

John 3
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; ....
and ye receive not our witness.
Why would Nicodemus say what he said when Moses said false prophets could perform miracles? Performing miracles is not proof someone is from God, so why did Nicodemus say that? Jesus said something that convinced him that he was Messiah because we see Nicodemus later as one of Jesus' faithful followers.

Jesus' question to Nicodemus is about being born of the water and of the Spirit. "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
 

amadeus

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I would put the precise time at Sinai when they did not want to hear the trumpet.

Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


Some say Israel "wandered" in the wilderness. The word actually is "grazed." They were still following the Cloud; but they did not want to hear the Voice of God for themselves.

Amen!

"And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness." Num 14:33

h[r Ra`ah (raw-aw'); Verb, Strong #: 7462

  1. to pasture, tend, graze, feed
    1. (Qal)
      1. to tend, pasture 1a
    2. to shepherd 1a
    3. of ruler, teacher (fig) 1a
    4. of people as flock (fig) 1a
    5. shepherd, herdsman (subst)
      1. to feed, graze 1a
    6. of cows, sheep etc (literal) 1a
    7. of idolater, Israel as flock (fig)
    8. (Hiphil) shepherd, shepherdess
  2. to associate with, be a friend of (meaning probable)
    1. (Qal) to associate with
    2. (Hithpael) to be companions
  3. (Piel) to be a special friend
KJV Word Usage and Count
feed 75
shepherd 63
pastor 8
herdmen 7
keep 3
companion 2
broken 1
company 1
devour 1
eat 1
entreateth 1
miscellaneous 10


People read the account and think of "Mount Sinai" as only a physical mountain. Exodus says they were "under" the mountain. I believe that. I say the people wanted to remain next to the physical mountain and were afraid of the spiritual "mountain" that was "above" them.

I say too that Moses was not afraid of the sound of the trumpet and was "caught up in the air" to meet the Lord. Was he also not changed?

I would say Moses was born of the Spirit. The rest of Israel was not. They had more work to do before they could enter the "rest" David wrote of in the Psalm. Will they be saved? Of course. All Israel will be saved at some time; but the way is narrow and few find it in this life.
Moses was most definitely changed! Consider how after 40 years of soft living in the flesh he tried to help when he killed the Egyptian...but like many leaders today, he was walking blind. Running away was I would guess a wise thing for him at the time.

After 40 years as a herder and a family man he saw the burning bush and he had a new beginning. Born of the Spirit? Perhaps, but most certainly then often led by the Holy Spirit as he returned to Egypt and then led the multitude of the children of Israel into the wilderness. Then for his final 40 years he suffered in wilderness/desert with the rebels of natural Israel.
 

amadeus

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I really like your answer here Amadeus!

It's like...the gospel was preached to them sort of, huh? But...as something that was to come, not yet, but something they anticipated...
When we read it in the Spirit, or at least led by the Spirit, we eventually will begin to see the messages in their experiences for us. How it was for them may be more difficult for us to see, but their judgment or reward is seen simply in the natural. Simply death in the wilderness for most of Israel or a new life in the Promised Land for Joshua and Caleb! For such as Joshua and Caleb [and also Moses... a different case for him] what is their result ultimately is perhaps hardest to understand, but do we need to understand the final end for them now? That is, did any of them qualify for the promises made to those living their carnal lives after the resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost as per Acts 2?
 
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amadeus

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I didn't follow that amadeus.
When we read it in the Spirit, or at least led by the Spirit, we eventually will begin to see the messages in their experiences for us.

God has messages for you and for me in the OT as well as in the NT. The only way we ever really correctly understand any of it is through the Holy Spirit in us. We should not expect it all to be understood at once. God has His time for each thing He gives to us. This includes an understanding of what He anointed men to write in what we call the OT.

How it was for them may be more difficult for us to see, but their judgment or reward is seen simply in the natural.
We may understand more easily the application of an OT scripture to ourselves than to the people who actually lived during the time those words were written. What one verse means to us may mean something else to them.

Simply death in the wilderness for most of Israel or a new life in the Promised Land for Joshua and Caleb!
I was stating simply how it might have been for the people living in that time really being led by Moses and Joshua. For us the story is simply a type or a shadow our situation. For them it was a reality.
For such as Joshua and Caleb [and also Moses... a different case for him] what is their result ultimately is perhaps hardest to understand, but do we need to understand the final end for them now? That is, did any of them qualify for the promises made to those living their carnal lives after the resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost as per Acts 2?

In other words, did the ones who died in the wilderness during the 40 year period simply die and for them that was the end? For Joshua and Caleb who lived through the 40 years and entered the Promised Land, was that the end for them? Could they who died before Jesus paid the price at Calvary in some way share the resulting blessing available to you and me?
 

stunnedbygrace

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In other words, did the ones who died in the wilderness during the 40 year period simply die and for them that was the end? For Joshua and Caleb who lived through the 40 years and entered the Promised Land, was that the end for them? Could they who died before Jesus paid the price at Calvary in some way share the resulting blessing available to you and me?

Oh, I see your question. I don't know. I more read it for how it applies to me rather than for trying to read it to figure out what their end will be in the resurrection. And even that is confusing to me because I have this idea in my head that those who had faith rose from their graves already when Jesus rose, since it says they saw many of their dead walking around.

I guess I will think about it some more and come back if I have an answer. I guess the knee jerk answer would be that those who died in the wilderness not having trust did not enter the promised land and will not be with God. Except Moses also did not enter and the disciples saw Jesus TALKING with Moses on the mount of tranfiguration. So to further confound me, Moses was present BEFORE Jesus rose. And there was some argument over his body, the verse of which I can't remember.

Who can figure all of it out enough to not be frightened to give an answer to you? I think I would be more frightened for the man who confidently gave an answer to your question than I would be for the man who would surely be berated by some men for saying he is not sufficient to answer it...
 
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amadeus

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Oh, I see your question. I don't know. I more read it for how it applies to me rather than for trying to read it to figure out what their end will be in the resurrection. And even that is confusing to me because I have this idea in my head that those who had faith rose from their graves already when Jesus rose, since it says they saw many of their dead walking around.
Normally, I only look to see what it means to me and my walk as well, but sometimes without even looking we see something else like you did with regard to them rising from their grave later. I am with you on believing this is where many of them encountered what we have encountered.
I guess I will think about it some more and come back if I have an answer. I guess the knee jerk answer would be that those who died in the wilderness not having trust did not enter the promised land and will not be with God. Except Moses also did not enter and the disciples saw Jesus TALKING with Moses on the mount of tranfiguration. So to further confound me, Moses was present BEFORE Jesus rose. And there was some argument over his body, the verse of which I can't remember.
Moses is the stickler, isn't he? He would be an exception to the rule if we thought we could state it as a rule. Would he be like David, who twice earned death, but was granted mercy by God?

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9
Who can figure all of it out enough to not be frightened to give an answer to you? I think I would be more frightened for the man who confidently gave an answer to your question than I would be for the man who would surely be berated by some men for saying he is not sufficient to answer it...
I don't know all of the answers to questions which could affect me directly... so what do I do about those which would not? If you come up with something else on this I would like to hear it. Thanks.
 
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