The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!

[Bible Highlighter]

Persecution for being a Christian vs criminal attacks on law-abiding citizens are two very different things. So what would you do if a "stoned" and violent criminal forcibly enters your home, and is ready to slaughter your family?

New Testament chapter and verse please. If your thinking does not exist in the New Testament or church history then it doesn’t exist.

Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts.

You either believe in the sufficiency of Scripture alone (plus the Anointing to understand it) or you trust also in your own added thoughts (outside of the Bible). In other words, our opinions on this topic should be backed by God’s Word. If not, you should re-examine what you believe, my friend. I again challenge anyone here to prove Violent Self Defense in the New Testament. Where do we see the apostles take up swords to fight against their enemies? What about the early church fathers and their statements on Non-Violence? Do we ignore that along with the teachings on Non-Violence in the New Testament? This is why I have a hard time believing what you believe.

 

[Wrangler]

Folks will become hard pressed to find any verse or passage that clearly justifies Violence.

Wow! What Bible are you reading? Off the top of my head, God kicked man out of Eden; Joshua’s conquest of Canaan at God’s command; David killing Goliath and taking back the kingdom from his traitorous son Absolom; the book ends with Jesus return as a military conqueror.

Even Jesus went berserk at seeing his Fathers house turned into a den of thieves! Then told us to buy a sword and even sell our coat to get it! Practically the whole book from beginning to end justifies violence.

Again, the world was, is and always will be ruled by the effective use of violence and only an idealist could deny.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Also, can folks honestly say that they are not being influenced by their past experience involving guns?
Did you used to be a Pacifist and then when you read the New Testament, you changed? I highly doubt it.
More than like you were a gun carrying believer before coming to Christ.
This shows that you are being influenced by your own carnal old man way of thinking and not by what Scripture says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow! What Bible are you reading? Off the top of my head, God kicked man out of Eden; Joshua’s conquest of Canaan at God’s command; David killing Goliath and taking back the kingdom from his traitorous son Absolom; the book ends with Jesus return as a military conqueror.

Even Jesus went berserk at seeing his Fathers house turned into a den of thieves! Then told us to buy a sword and even sell our coat to get it! Practically the whole book from beginning to end justifies violence.

Again, the world was, is and always will be ruled by the effective use of violence and only an idealist could deny.

I said New Testament and not Old Testament. We are New Testament Christians. There is no such thing as an Old Testament Christian. Christians did not exist until the New Testament. So unless God is talking to you verbally whereby He is telling you to wipe out whole people groups, or nations and you have successfully conquered them by God’s power, I seriously doubt you are under the Old Covenant. Remember, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom. This means the priesthood of the Old Covenant had ended. The Old Covenant has ended.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even before the Old Covenant was officially ended with Christ’s death, Jesus was making changes to the Old Law or Old ways.
The Pharisees pointed out how a woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned according to the Law of Moses.
Did Jesus kill her according to the Law? He should have if He was to strictly follow the Old Testament Law of Moses. But Jesus was changing things. Jesus is GOD and He was following what His Father said. The Father and the Son were preparing a new way of non-violence for His followers. A better way in loving all people. Yes, we preach against sin, and evil, but we are to love the person and desire them to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and to change their evil ways. But if we cast stones at them, or shoot them, then they can never repent or turn from their evil ways. They can never know Jesus Christ because we killed them. You know the Lord. So your salvation is secure. But they don’t. They would be lost for sure if you kill them. Why shut up hope of the Lord Jesus Christ for their life?

If you die, you go to be with Jesus Christ.
If they die, they go to hell.
Do you not care about your neighbor?
Do you care about lost souls or just about yourself?

 

[Waiting on him]

You guys really believe your first century Christian’s?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You guys really believe your first century Christian’s?

What other kind of Christians are we supposed to imitate? Morality does not change with the passage of time.

 

[Enoch111]

New Testament chapter and verse please.

I asked you a straightforward practical question. It is up to you to fit the Bible teaching that answers this.

 

[BarneyFife]

If you believe Romans 8:28 then nothing that is not ordained by God cannot happen to you that you deem is unjust or not in God’s plan. That’s what you don’t understand. You prefer your gun over the reality of Romans 8:28 and Psalms 91:10-12.

In other words: You need a gun because you don’t truly believe all things work together for good to those who love God according to Romans 8:28 because you think evil situations that are unjust will befall you outside of God’s greater plan for good for you life (or whereby ALL things work together for good for your life).

In other words: You need a gun because you don’t think God’s angels can truly protect you from unjust or senseless evil situations according to Psalms 91:10-12.

So I see that you trust your gun more than you do these Scripture verses.
But I would rather trust God and His Word and even die than trust in a gun; Especially when the Lord Jesus and His followers clearly taught Non-Violence.

Death is no accident. God is the giver and taker of life (Job 1:21).
Anything that happens in a believer’s life is no accident.
God is in control if they truly love God.
All things work together for good to those who love God.
Are you loving God? Then any silly scenario you come up with is not possible unless it was a part of God’s greater plan for good for your life.
But you want to control the situation. But you can’t. You could die by a bad driver. Your time is up when it is up (unless God grants you a longer life by prayer as he did with Hezekiah).

Would you rather die slowly in a nursing home?
Or would you rather potentially die more quickly by preaching the gospel in a hostile territory? Granted, I would prefer to be raptured, but if I had a choice. I would rather die more quickly than die slowly in a nursing home.

Besides, it really does not matter what you believe here. It’s about what the Bible says. You will be hard pressed to find any solid verse or passage that is 100% clear proof that a Christian can defend themselves using Violence in the pages of the New Testament. For such a verse or passage does not exist. But what you will find in the New Testament from Jesus and His followers is a constant teaching on Non-Violence. But the problem is that when you run into these verses you either need to explain them away or you need to ignore them.

But go ahead and trust in your gun if that makes you feel better.
I know the Lord GOD Almighty (the maker of the Heavens and the Earth) can protect me from any harm. For God can make a bee to fly down a person’s throat and choke him, or He could simply stop their heart. With God, nothing is impossible.

One thing I would never do in my appeals for any kind of reform is accuse another believer of unbelief. These people aren't Pharisees. Good luck in trying to reach the hearts of those you're "preaching the Word" to. You're going to need it since you seem to be intent on usurping the office of the Holy Spirit.


Edit: I just noticed your "Statement Of Faith" signature includes a distinctive denunciation of the 4th commandment—the height of absurdity and irony.

No, you don't want to talk about the Sabbath:

Except in every single post you generate.

 

[JohnPaul]

You wrote ""fememinst movement" and I correctly replied there is no such thing. I didn't say there is no feminist movement.

You're a smart aleck, you know what I meant, that was a typo it happens, how child like you act.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked you a straightforward practical question. It is up to you to fit the Bible teaching that answers this.

No. It’s not my job to try and defend your belief with the New Testament anymore than I would expect you to do the same with mine. I believe you are unable to defend your belief using New Testament Scripture. That’s the whole point. So the ball is back in your court. If you don’t want to back up your own claims with NT Scripture, and defend the faith, then that is on you, friend. But we are told to preach the Word (2 Timothy 4:2). So this should come natural to us in wanting to share things in God’s Word with other believers. Jesus said feed my sheep (John 21:17).

Questions can be loaded, or false, or based upon a false premise or something that is not true. So again, the burden of proof rests on you to defend your own belief. I am not going to defend your own belief for you. If you truly care about your belief and think it is important and good, and you want other Christian readers who pass by this site to know the truth, then speak using New Testament Scripture.

By not defending your position using NT Scripture, it only makes your position seem weak and untrue. So keep up the good work. You are only helping to prove my case in that I am correct on what the New Testament says on this matter.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked you a straightforward practical question. It is up to you to fit the Bible teaching that answers this.

In other words, if what you say is true, we need to see a demonstration in New Testament Scripture of a doctrine by one of the apostles that says something like this:

“Brethren, if you are persecuted for Christ, do not act in violence, and die for your faith not raising a fist or sword against them, but if you are at home and you notice an evil stranger who breaks into your home who does not know you are Christian and they attack you and your family, then by all means, use the utter most violence of great force against them and use your fists, swords, and plowshares to take their life.” (Gun Carrying Influenced Translation).​

Or, we need something like this in Scripture:

“Then the apostle Paul went to the city of Derma and when he was attacked with stones for his faith there, he did not take up his sword to fight back (Seeing he was living out his faith for Christ). But the next day when Paul woke up unharmed by the stones, and he climbed out, a well known band of thieves looking to kill Paul so as to steal his goods (not knowing he was a Christian), Paul then took his sword and showed them no mercy and took their lives by the sword.” (Gun Carrying Influenced Translation).​

There is nothing like these kinds of words in the New Testament.

Also, think. How do you know the random person attacking you does not know about your life? Maybe they are secretly out to kill you because you are Christian. This would be a violation of being persecuted for Christ if you were to fight back against them. So this kind of belief is not really consistent.

In addition, can a gun carrying Christian really be willing to not use their gun when they are persecuted for Christ’s sake? I don’t think they could. Their mentality is shoot first when trouble arises. They are so used to their gun by their side. The gun is their old friend that they cannot stop using and trusting in. So I don’t think the gun carrying Christian can truly put aside their weapon and be persecuted and killed for Christ’s sake. I just don’t think that is possible for most of them. For them, their gun is like drinking water, or car insurance. It’s a part of them and their thinking. Shoot first at the sign of trouble.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked you a straightforward practical question. It is up to you to fit the Bible teaching that answers this.

Some gun focused Christians try to use Romans 13 out of context to defend their belief in blowing people’s heads off.

Some will will try to say that the “higher powers” is in reference to Christians when this is clearly not the case when we read everything in context.

For the “higher powers” (KJB) in Romans 13:1 is in reference to “governing authorities” according to other translations. Romans 13:1 tells us the reader (i.e. the Roman Christians or us) that we are to be subject unto these governing authorities (Note: Gentile governing authorities are not an exclusive group of believers or Christians only). Anyways, in context, this is talking about how we are to submit to unbelieving governing authorities. These rulers (over you) are a terror to those who do evil. Meaning, if a person murders, or steals, the government authorities (like the police) will step in and punish them according to the law. The unbelieving governing authority can act as God’s minister for justice to execute wrath upon a person. So that is why “we,” the reader (or Christian) is told that if we do evil, we are to be afraid because the government does bear not the sword (weapons) in vain. Meaning, you should respect the law if you do evil, because the governing authorities (like the police) could shoot you if you do certain kinds of evil. So it’s not talking about Christians but unbelieving governments acting as an arm of justice for God.

For in the Old Testament, God was able to use Assyria (an unbelieving nation) to punish Israel for their sins. But once Assyria served it’s purpose in being an instrument of justice, they were then later destroyed. The point here is that God is able to carry out justice by unbelieving governments. So Romans 13 is not referring to the “minister of God” (verse 4) as being the Christian here, but unbelieving governments acting as an arm of justice for God to those who do evil. That’s why we are to submit to the government and its authority (unless they are wrongfully enforcing us to disobey something moral and good in God’s Word).

 

[Wrangler]

I said New Testament and not Old Testament.

1st, Nonsequitor. It's irrelevant what portion of Scripture you referenced since I demonstrated THE WHOLE BOOK justifies violence.

Wow! What Bible are you reading? ... Practically the whole book from beginning to end justifies violence ...

2nd, Appeal to Diversion. You ignored the foundation of reality in this world.

Again, the world was, is and always will be ruled by the effective use of violence and only an idealist could deny.

3rd, The fatal flaw of your argument. Others have said it. Fact is, criminals prefer an unarmed society. You are advocating for godlessness since God is a god of law and order and your policy of non-violence promotes criminality and lawlessness. In the end, a criminal will not be prevented from robbing my house and killing me and my family because of the famous words of a book. In the end, criminals lawlessness will be stopped when good men shoot them dead. This is how crime is deterred.

I have a neighbor like you and a sign by my door that warns a would be intruder not to be concerned about my large dogs but a decal of a gun pointing outward; worry about the owner! Below that is another sign educating the would be intruder that my neighbor is against guns. Know the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[Wrangler]

Let me say it again

The world was, is and always will be ruled by the effective use of violence and only an idealist could deny it.

 

[Wrangler]

John Lott is a statistician who wrote the book Guns Save Lives.

This thread is driven by idealists who condemn the good on the grounds that it is not better.

In this world, nothing is perfect.

Cars make life better but also kill, maime and pollute.
Medicine save lives but also some get addicted and overdose.
Guns save ~2M lives every year even though some innocent people are killed by guns.
Insurance help billions through the worst of times but sometimes there is fraud.​

A practical mind recognizes and is grateful for the net benefit of man's inventions. Some here advocate against reason, against net benefits. Fortunately, they always were a very small, albeit vocal minority.

 

[dev553344]

I remember when I was in the military I had a special bayonet for my M-16 and wanted one of those 50 caliber desert eagles. Reminds me of the good ol' days:

 

[Enoch111]

This topic really comes down to believing Jesus and or the New Testament.

Did Jesus encourage the apostles to carry weapons to protect themselves (presumably from bandits who would attack them as they traveled)? Of course He did: Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (Luke 22:36). Swords in those days would have been similar to guns.

Now here is something which should be carefully noted. The apostles were carrying swords as they traveled with Christ and when they entered Gethsemane. Hence these two verses.
When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? (Luke 22:49)

And Peter actually used his sword to defend Christ: Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. (John 18:10)

Now since believing Jesus is the same as believing the New Testament, Bible Highlighter should live up to his screen name and highlight these verses, and ponder on their significance. When the apostles were persecuted for being Christians, they did not resist persecution. But it is clear that they were allowed to defend themselves against criminals and evildoers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1st, Nonsequitor. It's irrelevant what portion of Scripture you referenced since I demonstrated THE WHOLE BOOK justifies violence.

People can justify just about anything they want using the Bible. It does not mean they are correct.

Jim Jones started the Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ, originally Peoples Temple Full Gospel Church and commonly shortened to Peoples Temple. But we all know what happened in his messed up twisting on Scripture. He convinced his followers to commit suicide.

Now, think a moment. While Jim Jones did not say such words, Jim Jones could have said to his followers to sacrifice their life just as Christ sacrificed his life. Jim Jones could have then pointed to his followers about how they are to follow Christ according to 1 John 2:6. But this would be taking the Bible out of context if he said these kinds of words to get his followers to commit suicide (Note: Again, Jim Jones did not say these exact words to his followers that I am aware of).

Granted, while I am not implying you would ever do what Jim Jones did, the point here is that your point here with Scripture is incorrect and out of context in a similar way (maybe not exactly) as his was. For your point that the whole Bible justifies violence is a non sequitur or fallacy. If Jesus taught New Testament Non-Violence to His apostles, and Christians (His followers) also taught Non-Violence, then that is a reality we must accept. For are you told to build an Ark like Noah? Surely not. That was for Noah. The covenant made with Moses involving the Law was for Israel. The church was not given the Law, and the church was not told to act in violence. On the contrary, the church was taught Non-Violence. Just look at church history and or the early church fathers, too. They also made statements that supported Non-Violence, too.

2nd, Appeal to Diversion. You ignored the foundation of reality in this world.

Your mind is stuck in a feed back loop of thinking just one way. Your mind is like one in a video game. See “bad guy”… must shoot and destroy.
If this was God’s way of thinking then none of us would be here. For Christ died for us while we were yet sinners (As the Scriptures say).
There can be no mercy and grace with your justice only way of thinking. If justice only was the way, the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned. But that did not happen. In fact, did you not receive grace and mercy from Jesus Christ? If God was all about justice and kill and destroy evil people, then there would be no grace for you, or me, and or anyone.
How do you know the person you shoot or kill will not want grace from the Lord Jesus Christ? You don’t know because you gave them a one way ticket to hell (Shutting up the offer of grace to them). Your life is more important than their life. Send them to hell. But were you not a sinner and deserving of grace?

3rd, The fatal flaw of your argument. Others have said it. Fact is, criminals prefer an unarmed society. You are advocating for godlessness since God is a god of law and order and your policy of non-violence promotes criminality and lawlessness. In the end, a criminal will not be prevented from robbing my house and killing me and my family because of the famous words of a book. In the end, criminals lawlessness will be stopped when good men shoot them dead. This is how crime is deterred.

I have a neighbor like you and a sign by my door that warns a would be intruder not to be concerned about my large dogs but a decal of a gun pointing outward; worry about the owner! Below that is another sign educating the would be intruder that my neighbor is against guns. Know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Romans 13:1-7 talks about unbelieving governing authorities in how they can act as an minister of God (or an arm of justice for God) in punishing those who do evil. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Jesus said love your enemies and not to kill them. So logic dictates that while the FEW Christians in this world who are faithful to Christ are following His teachings (and loving their enemies) that the rest of the world and its unbelieving governments will take care of justice where its needed (and God can use them to carry out justice on His end at times that it aligns with His purposes and will). So we don’t have to worry about whether justice will be done. God’s got that one covered. The Christian has a different function or role or office that is different than that of the world. God can carry out justice using the world system. God knows this. God knows that many will not follow exactly what Jesus says by faith. They will think in carnal terms or a physical way. They will walk by sight and not by faith.

 

[Jim B]

To all:

This topic really comes down to believing Jesus and or the New Testament.
Are we going to run off and do our own thing? Or are we going to believe Jesus and His followers?
That’s how I deal with this topic. Even early church history and quotes of the early church fathers prove that they believed in Non-Violence.
When reading the New Testament: Violent Self Defense is totally absent. It doesn’t exist. No apostles picked up their swords and fought back at their enemies and actually killed them. Instead, we read of the teaching of Non-Violence by both Jesus and His followers. This should speak volumes in and of itself but I think people prefer to just think carnally or physically instead of going by what the New Testament says.

Folks will become hard pressed to find any verse or passage that clearly justifies Violence. It does not matter what moral story you bring up. What matters is obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. That’s what matters. Can you in good conscience defend your belief in the New Testament? I don’t see how that is possible. Violent Self Defense does not exist in the New Testament.

I agree totally! Great post! There is nothing that justifies violence against others in the New Testament.