The irreconcilable issue...

[Purity]

I have been reading a Bible commentary edited by Leon Morris regarding a passage in Heb 2:14 which many of you know has caused some heartache for those Trinitarian members in this forum.

The reason for posting is not just to refute its teaching, but to highlight the many problems it presents a sincere Christian who genuinely seeking a truth filled knowledge, a message which leads towards salvation, not farther away.

At first I will make no comments - I would prefer some objective members to highlight areas of concern, if any.

Tyndale New Testament Commentaries​

Volume 15​

General Editor: Leon Morris​

Hebrews 2:14KJV

The writer reflects on the incarnation and mission of Jesus. His becoming man was necessary because his ‘children’ were flesh and blood, a somewhat unexpected way of putting it. Nevertheless the idea is clear enough. It is worth noting that in the Greek text the order is blood and flesh. It has been suggested that ‘blood’ alludes to Christ’s shedding of blood, which is then given as the reason for his becoming flesh, i.e. the atonement required the incarnation. To deliver man, Jesus Christ had to share his nature. We are in the presence of a mystery here. The fact that he himself partook of the same nature sums up the perfect humanity of Jesus. When this statement is set over against the statements in chapter 1, about the divine Sonship of Jesus, the mystery deepens. His superiority to angels is set against his equality with man. There can never be a wholly satisfactory explanation of these two facets of his nature, because man has no suitable frame of reference in which to consider it. There are no human analogies. The writer is not concerned with theological debate, but with showing how closely Jesus Christ is identified with his people. It is significant that a different verb (meteschen) is used to describe what Jesus shared from that used (kekoinōnēken) to describe what the children shared. Although there is no essential difference in meaning, the change of tense from the perfect to the aorist suggests that Christ’s taking on human nature is a specific act in time; he became what he was not before (i.e. a man).

 

[JonD]

Time for me to do this, goodbye Purity. Titus 3 v 10

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You are reading too much into it

We humans are the ones under the grip of death because of our sin we got via the devil

In order to be released from this death sentence Jesus became flesh and did what he had to do down here .... to break the power of death over us.

We will still die , it is the second death we do not have to fear. read revelation.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

You are reading too much into it

We humans are the ones under the grip of death because of our sin we got via the devil

In order to be released from this death sentence Jesus became flesh and did what he had to do down here .... to break the power of death over us.

We will still die , it is the second death we do not have to fear. read revelation.

Arnie,

That is not correct. Those that are born again will never die.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Purity]

Time for me to do this, goodbye Purity. Titus 3 v 10

Before you leave Jon you should know the basis of your departure is exaggerated and unnecessary.

The context of Titus 3:10 is in the proceeding verse.

3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the law, because they are useless and empty.

Doctrinal discussions about the Godhead, nature of man, the false accuser and the adversaries do not constitute foolish controversies.

I posted a work by one of your fellow Trinitarians which clearly confronted you in a way which you are not willing to face. I would be more concerned by this response than the content of the OP.

May you face that which holds you back from opening your mind and reject those wishy washy mysteries you currently have in your possession.

Purity.

Arnie,

That is not correct. Those that are born again will never die.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rocky,

Thanks for reminding us that our death is but a sleep and that our lives are keep safe in the mind of the Father awaiting the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:51

P.

 

[nothead]

I have been reading a Bible commentary edited by Leon Morris regarding a passage in Heb 2:14 which many of you know has caused some heartache for those Trinitarian members in this forum.

The reason for posting is not just to refute its teaching, but to highlight the many problems it presents a sincere Christian who genuinely seeking a truth filled knowledge, a message which leads towards salvation, not farther away.

At first I will make no comments - I would prefer some objective members to highlight areas of concern, if any.

Hodgepodge of unmitigated muck. God did not become OVER THE ANGELS, having been made previously UNDER THE ANGELS.

What kind of mishmash is this? This guy speaking of natures and 'blood coming before flesh' and whatnot misses the whole point of chpt 2. What is the whole point here?

[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Now....this may SEEM to indicate God took on himself flesh...and but and yet....


...it not be so, not be true and furthermore it not be right. Paul is saying he did not take upon himself the glorification of ANGELS since as 'elohim' he AIN'T an angel at all, he is ABOVE any angel dead or alive or became the Devil or Beheemoth or whatever...

He is his own ontology, that of the first primo donna man glorified, the FIRST among many Sons. Not the FIRST FIRST since some saints will or have been glorified before him. FIRST in priority since he gave himself UP as no man before or since.

You are reading too much into it

We humans are the ones under the grip of death because of our sin we got via the devil

In order to be released from this death sentence Jesus became flesh and did what he had to do down here .... to break the power of death over us.

We will still die , it is the second death we do not have to fear. read revelation.

Jesus became flesh or GOD became flesh? And if Jesus was with the Father from before any beginning of time, then how is God a numerical oneness of being?

 

[shturt678]

Heb.2:14 kekoinwneken, "have been in fellowship" The perfect tense reached back to Adam and continues on from that point.

metesxen, "shared" The historical aorist marking the moment and the fact of the Incarnation. This tense in no way implies that this sharing lasted only for a time and then ended.

Old, just the basics, Jack

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky,

Thanks for reminding us that our death is but a sleep and that our lives are keep safe in the mind of the Father awaiting the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:51

P.

Purity,

I did not say we would sleep, for that is what those of faith did before Jesus freed us from death. At the resurrection of the faithful Jews in 70AD, no one sleeps awaiting another resurrection, they either go to heaven or the grave. Our redemption comes when we are born again.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
This book of Daniel’s prophecy would be sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel was told that he would rest (sleep) then stand in thy lot (with his kind, Jews) at the end of the days.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus told his disciples that they would sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Jews.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
John was told not to seal the book of this prophecy (which is the same as Daniel’s) for the time was at hand. The Boof of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written prior to 70AD.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here we see that John saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. Those would be the disciples, the Jews that walked with Jesus and went on to be his witness. They had been beheaded, yet their souls never died because they had been born again.

Jesus was the Jews Messiah and he came to them, not to us. We became the beneficiary of his sacrifice after the Jews rejected him. After the resurrection of Jesus, the Apostles preached to the Jews several years before Peter was sent to the first Gentiles to be baptized. Paul became the Apostle of the Gentiles and he opened the door to all of us.

When Jesus said we would never die, he meant spiritually. God is a Spirit and the spiritual world is where his kingdom resides.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul was speaking of the Jews when he used the word “we”, because sleep only pertained to the Jews.

 

[nothead]

Heb.2:14 kekoinwneken, "have been in fellowship" The perfect tense reached back to Adam and continues on from that point.

metesxen, "shared" The historical aorist marking the moment and the fact of the Incarnation. This tense in no way implies that this sharing lasted only for a time and then ended.

Old, just the basics, Jack

No incarnation, Jack.

Lookit the verse before. INCARNATION IS IMPOSSIBLE, why?

And again, I will put my
trust in him. And again,
Behold I and the children
which God hath given me.


See, Jesus is speaking here. And he tells of God as OTHER THAN HIMSELF.

 

[DPMartin]

Jesus became flesh or GOD became flesh? And if Jesus was with the Father from before any beginning of time, then how is God a numerical oneness of being?

Why did Moses’ face become radiant when the Lord spoke to him? Why wasn’t the light shining on Moses? Why was it shining from Moses? Again just where is heaven? And how is it known in the world? Understand those things and you might understand Father, Son, Holy Spirit as One. Not as some trinity theology mind you, as the Lord God reveals. Or YHWH Elohim reveals in His Presence. Even the sages understood there was three, that are One, long before Jesus (the Word of God that is LORD of all that is made) came into the world via the Son of man.

 

[nothead]

Why did Moses’ face become radiant when the Lord spoke to him? Why wasn’t the light shining on Moses? Why was it shining from Moses? Again just where is heaven? And how is it known in the world? Understand those things and you might understand Father, Son, Holy Spirit as One. Not as some trinity theology mind you, as the Lord God reveals. Or YHWH Elohim reveals in His Presence. Even the sages understood there was three, that are One, long before Jesus (the Word of God that is LORD of all that is made) came into the world via the Son of man.

I deny this wholeheartedly with a fine tooth comb...or whatever ELSE I got in my hand. Which SAGES are ye sprechen of, some gnostic of a curled penis HINDU this way comes? On a STICK? Yeah, I seen that documentary. It was on the National Geographic channel. Quite a talent he had.

THREE may sound like a holy number to YOU sir, but I assure you the number of God is ONE and ONE ONLY since this was the command for you to know Deut 6:4 and affirmed by the Christ of us, Mk 12 Mt 22 and Lk 10.

Why did Moses countenance a reflected SHEKINAH of YHWH Elohim? Let me tell you the one and only time I know I saw a true slaying in the Spirit. A young girl about 9 years old, suddenly on her back. When she got up, her smile was like bright shining sun and her eyes were lit up like you wouldn't believe. SHE had no theology concerning or
desire behooving, she was just a daughter of a member is all, not EVEN regular to our church.

Did that answer your question or would you like a play-by-play analysis? Some things are greater and more holy than we can describe.

 

[DPMartin]

I deny this wholeheartedly with a fine tooth comb...or whatever ELSE I got in my hand. Which SAGES are ye sprechen of, some gnostic of a curled penis HINDU this way comes? On a STICK? Yeah, I seen that documentary. It was on the National Geographic channel. Quite a talent he had.

THREE may sound like a holy number to YOU sir, but I assure you the number of God is ONE and ONE ONLY since this was the command for you to know Deut 6:4 and affirmed by the Christ of us, Mk 12 Mt 22 and Lk 10.

Why did Moses countenance a reflected SHEKINAH of YHWH Elohim? Let me tell you the one and only time I know I saw a true slaying in the Spirit. A young girl about 9 years old, suddenly on her back. When she got up, her smile was like bright shining sun and her eyes were lit up like you wouldn't believe. SHE had no theology concerning or
desire behooving, she was just a daughter of a member is all, not EVEN regular to our church.

A, what are you talking about? You watch way to much TV. If you knew, you would understand that I was referring to Hebrews of the past that not only are referred to as rabbis, but also sages which are considered scholars of their day. You jump to conclusions and assumptions that are inaccurate and or not true. Which seems the ususal with you. Also you haven’t yet to my knowledge, stated who you say that Jesus is. Interesting how you seem to avoid that answer.

How is what you say is Shekinah is a refection? That again is a assumption on your part. It was so bright that he had to wear a vale over his face, so others could look at him, hence the shining was coming from his face and not a reflection. If it was a reflection the vale would have stopped the shining.

As far as the commonly miss understood Shekinah its not scripture, but is used as a term for the Presence of God and since you have said it’s a Shekinah then you have said that the Presence of God was within Moses in order for that shining to be what it was. And again it can’t be a reflection because it continued to shine after the vale was on his face, therefore from with in Moses. And since the Presence of God was in Moses, where is God? And isn’t God in Heaven?

Considering your misgivings and confusion in a simple conversation it would be far fetched for me to believe your story, even though you might believe it yourself. Though its certainly not impossible, but from you its not probable.

Since you know so stinken much, tell me who you say Jesus is. And how is it that He came from Heaven, considering He states that no one goes to heaven that isn’t from heaven. And its clear that He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. And since you don’t think the three are One of which I explained some time ago how that’s so. Tell me just what is the Word of God, and does anyone know God and who He is? Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through the Son just how does that work in your view of who Jesus is and or God is?

 

[nothead]

A, what are you talking about? You watch way to much TV. If you knew, you would understand that I was referring to Hebrews of the past that not only are referred to as rabbis, but also sages which are considered scholars of their day. You jump to conclusions and assumptions that are inaccurate and or not true. Which seems the ususal with you. Also you haven’t yet to my knowledge, stated who you say that Jesus is. Interesting how you seem to avoid that answer.

I could ask you the same question, since you vaguely refer to some oddball SAGES of Judaic Religion this way came. Name them and claim them. Gemaliel? Whataknobby
El Brinkenstein?

Avoid what answer? The answer to your being, that there are two Gods in Heaven? YUHHH?

How is what you say is Shekinah is a refection? That again is a assumption on your part. It was so bright that he had to wear a vale over his face, so others could look at him, hence the shining was coming from his face and not a reflection. If it was a reflection the vale would have stopped the shining.

Okaydokay, Moses is the SOURCE of the radiance. God SAID he would be 'elohim' to Pharoah...this must mean he GOD TOO, I got the rev...baby. If it was a reflection the vale would have stopped the WHAT? Ehy you know all things. Should I call you master, sir?

As far as the commonly miss understood Shekinah its not scripture, but is used as a term for the Presence of God and since you have said it’s a Shekinah then you have said that the Presence of God was within Moses in order for that shining to be what it was. And again it can’t be a reflection because it continued to shine after the vale was on his face, therefore from with in Moses. And since the Presence of God was in Moses, where is God? And isn’t God in Heaven?

You ain't pentecostal are ye? Look up Shekinah wiki and get back. Have your people call mine. We'll have lunch and you can tell me what you have learned.

Considering your misgivings and confusion in a simple conversation it would be far fetched for me to believe your story, even though you might believe it yourself. Though its certainly not impossible, but from you its not probable.

Made a lasting first impression, did I?

Since you know so stinken much, tell me who you say Jesus is. And how is it that He came from Heaven, considering He states that no one goes to heaven that isn’t from heaven. And its clear that He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. And since you don’t think the three are One of which I explained some time ago how that’s so. Tell me just what is the Word of God, and does anyone know God and who He is? Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through the Son just how does that work in your view of who Jesus is and or God is?

Jesus is elohim under YHWH Elohim and over the angels 'elohim.' Any more questions? Your welcome.

oh by the way this is exactly what is depicted by the "right hand of God" scene, reality TV at it's best, the first installment seen by Stephen. See, the right hand of God cannot be God since the right and left hands of Jesus ain't God. Did you get that one, sir?

 

[RANDOR]

Jesus and I...........kickin it back.....reading all the posts...

Huh?...what was that Jesus?...............oh-ya........here's the chips.

 

[shturt678]

No incarnation, Jack.

Lookit the verse before. INCARNATION IS IMPOSSIBLE, why?

And again, I will put my
trust in him. And again,
Behold I and the children
which God hath given me.


See, Jesus is speaking here. And he tells of God as OTHER THAN HIMSELF.

Thank you again for your response!

First and foremost I have to thank our Lord for you. Something about me, I'm just not that likeable by my Christian brothers and sisters, and I have to admit that I do like you and you make me appear likeable on this forum, beyond my finite understanding - continue the good work!

Heb.2:14 The Incarnation is not indicated here for the first time; it's implied already in Heb.1:2 and in all that follows,note especially "having been made a little than angels" in Heb.2:9. Here, however, "he shared the same" is direct. My point:

The fact that the eternal Son had no human father, that His Incarnation was miraculous, is understood by all who know the eternity of His deity, which has also been fully indicated in the final clause of Heb.1:2.

Finally looking good, Jack

 

[Purity]

Purity,[/size]
[/size]
I did not say we would sleep, for that is what those of faith did before Jesus freed us from death. At the resurrection of the faithful Jews in 70AD, no one sleeps awaiting another resurrection, they either go to heaven or the grave. Our redemption comes when we are born again.[/size]

Can you show me your heaven going Scriptures? O where are my manners - please.

Thank you again for your response!

First and foremost I have to thank our Lord for you. Something about me, I'm just not that likeable by my Christian brothers and sisters, and I have to admit that I do like you and you make me appear likeable on this forum, beyond my finite understanding - continue the good work!

Heb.2:14 The Incarnation is not indicated here for the first time; it's implied already in Heb.1:2 and in all that follows,note especially "having been made a little than angels" in Heb.2:9. Here, however, "he shared the same" is direct. My point:

The fact that the eternal Son had no human father, that His Incarnation was miraculous, is understood by all who know the eternity of His deity, which has also been fully indicated in the final clause of Heb.1:2.

Finally looking good, Jack

Old Jack, could you see the problem Mr Morris had with dealing with Heb 2:14?

 

[RANDOR]

And you guys want us to listen to you? We could do this all year long, day in and day out........Testimonies of a jw.
Like I said.........who cares if you say Jesus isn't God

AS A WARRIOR FOR CHRIST....................MY JOB IS TO EXPOSE THE DEVIL

Sorry.....but I find what they believe in.......is repulsive.....and down right evil.
The way they treat their families.....is the act of selflessly winning satan's approval...in the name of God
My best friend turned jw...........it sure was sad how he treated his parents.........actually he treated his parents far better even as a heathen before the jw's got a hold of him. Pitiful, sick, discusting, perverted, but hey...who is king of such things?



My Life as a Jehovah's Witness




Pin It




Source: Michelle O'Donnell












Slowly and terrified I walked up to my first door. I was only 5 at the time, but was told I had to do this. Full of dread and anticipation I knocked on the old wooden door. It opened with a whoosh and an older man dressed only in his boxers and a stained t-shirt started yelling at me. "What do you think your doing young lady!! Don't you know this is private property? Don't you people read signs?" he bellowed at me. His breathe stinking of cigarettes and booze. "now get your behind off of my property and don't you ever come knocking here again!!" he proclaimed and slammed the door so hard in my face that it rattled in it's jam. I stood frozen to terrified to move and burst into tears. My mother came running up the dilapidated walk way and scooped me up carrying me to the car.
This would be bad enough for any child to bear, but I was so shy and afraid of people that it took me 6 months to try again. Not because I wanted to, but because I was told I had to. It was my responsibility as a young christian to preach the word of God to others so that they might be saved. If I didn't then I would upset God and would not be aloud to come back to the Kingdom hall. I was told how it would break my mothers heart and how disappointed everyone would be with me. So of course out of fear more than anything I knocked on my next door. The fear building up inside me I began to tremble and cry begging my mother to please not make me do this. She insisted and to my great joy nobody came to the door. I thought great!! I'm done!! I did what they asked I can go home and play now. No! not so! There were to many people to save and not much time. On to the next door. Over and over no one would answer their door. Even though I could hear the TV on and people walking around in the house, they did not answer the doors. Once in a while someone would open the door just enough to say they were not interested, but for the most part, no one was ever home. And so it continued for the next 10 years. Not once did anyone willingly talk to us or greet us with welcome arms.
Life was hard as a Witness. There were so many rules to follow and a lot of them were so very painful to abide by. The hardest for me was Christmas. Going to school and hearing how all your friends got new toys from Santa and having to tell them that you were not aloud to celebrate was crushing. Plus they looked at you as if you were a lepper when you told them how you were not aloud to celebrate any holidays. I can remember when I was young about 7 years old I thought Santa has to bring me something. I've been such a good girl all year. I did everything my parents asked of me and everything the Witnesses asked of me. I was good at school and always kind to others. He just had to bring me something. So I stayed up all night hoping and waiting for the fat man in the red suit to show up, but he never did. I couldn't imagine what I had done to upset Santa so much. I felt so hurt.
School was tormentous. I was not aloud to have any friends outside of the religion, I could not salute the flag, or pledge my allegiance to it. I could not participate in any birthday parties or holiday parties and was treated like an outcast because of it. The teasing started and it didn't help that I had started to put on weight. So of course this just gave them more things to tease me about. I wanted so badly to be like the others, to be included in their games and laughter. Even some of my teachers treated me differently. The only place I was welcomed was of course at the Kingdom hall. They always treated me nicely as long as I did what I was told. So I did. I became the good christian they wanted me to be. I did it not for myself, and not for them, but for my mother because she was the world to me. I would have done anything for her. So it became my life, I lived it, breathed it, slept it and dreamed it. I even bought into it and believed everything they taught me. We went to church 3 days a week, had home bible studies twice a week and read from the bible daily. Then there were the conventions twice a year that were 3 days long. Everyone was always so friendly and there were several that I had become great friends with. It wasn't all bad. We had our fun. We always did things as a group, rollerskating, pool parties, sleep overs and other outings. It was the only place I felt accepted and normal.
As I became a teenager I developed a friendship with a worldly girl who accepted me for who I was. We became great friends and it had gotten to the point where it angered my mothers and the elders. We were not aloud to have outside friends. They felt that bad associations would spoil useful habits. They were sure this girl would corrupt me. I was told I could no longer have any association with her. The problem was, she was my best friend at this point. Feeling like I had no alternative I kept our friendship hidden. It wasn't perfect. I couldn't hang out much with her so I started making up lies. Telling my mother I was staying late after school for a study group, or going to the library to research an English paper. We would hang out at her house and do what all 13 year olds did, gossip, talk about boys and listen to music. Her mother was truly awesome. I had told her everything, how I wasn't aloud to hang out with people outside of the religion and how I had been deceiving my own mother just to be here. She never looked down on me and in fact treated me like her own daughter. When Christmas came I even found presents under their tree for me which she of course let me keep at her house. She included me in on everything and it felt great.
Then in a flash it all blew up in my face. We had become careless and decided to hang outside and my mother happened to drive by. We lived down the block. She saw me and insisted I come home with her at once. I was given a choice, either get rid of my best friend in the whole world or leave the religion and face the elders. Mom was not happy with my answer. I chose my friend. She was crushed, but instead of disclosing my secret friendship to the elders and risk having me excommunicated, she allowed me to stay friends with her as long as it did not interfere with my responsibilities to the church. I was overjoyed!!! Not for long though. As I grew older it got harder and harder to maintain my christian ways. My friend had started smoking and of course so did I. We started sneaking alcohol from our parents stash and watering down the bottles, we were shop lifting, listening to metal music and eventually partaking in weed. My mother saw my decline and begged the elders to talk to me. They smelled the smoke off of me and gave me an ultimatum. Either sever all ties with my friend, stop smoking and right my wrongs or I would be kicked out. Now, more rebellious than ever, I chose to leave. Oh how they belittled me, shamed me, telling me how I was breaking my mothers heart, what a disappointment I was and how God would have nothing to do with me ever again. He would not hear my prayers for I had fallen from grace. They told my mother she could not have any association with me due to the fact that I was now corrupt and might influence her in a worldly way. It was devastating. My mother was so cold to me, barely making eye contact with me, constantly crying when ever she did look at me and we no longer had the relationship that I had once treasured. It took years for her to accept that I was excommunicated and to once again accept me for who I was. Her daughter!






That was a little girls story........next we will get into the ex jw's and why they left

 

[Nomad]

Where exactly is this irreconcilable issue? I find no "Trinitarian heartache" in Heb. 2:14 nor Leon Morris' comments. You need to be more specific.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnie,

That is not correct. Those that are born again will never die.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If Christians do not die then we made a hell of a mistake when we buried them in the cemetery.

Furthermore , we cannot be resurrected from the dead unless we first die

It is after we are resurrected to our new bodies that we never die.

It is called eternal life, we are destined for it , but we are not there yet.

What does this have to do with the opening post anyway ?

 

[Purity]

Heb 2:14

The writer reflects on the incarnation and mission of Jesus.

Comment: The writer (presumably Paul) is reflecting how Jesus is fully flesh and blood i.e human in every respect, and not a hybrid of natures as Trinitarians purport!

The irreconcilable issue: Nowhere in the Epistle does the writer discuss, draw on OT prophecies, or provide context for Jesus being fully God and fully man in respect to nature.

His becoming man was necessary because his ‘children’ were flesh and blood, a somewhat unexpected way of putting it.

Comment: An unfounded assumption is being made that God became man

The irreconcilable issue: Nowhere in the Epistle does the writer discuss, draw on prophecies, provide context for God becoming man. In fact the writer is specific at a certain day and time God fathered a Son...he did not become the Son and the Son did not become the Father Heb 1:5

Nevertheless the idea is clear enough.

Comment: The "idea" is not clear as we shall see from his own words.

The irreconcilable issue: The author & editor of the commentary have made two assumptions and now question the idea as being clear; lets see what evidence they use to support their idea.

It is worth noting that in the Greek text the order is blood and flesh. It has been suggested that ‘blood’ alludes to Christ’s shedding of blood, which is then given as the reason for his becoming flesh, i.e. the atonement required the incarnation.

Comment: Here the author misses the entire point as to why Jesus needed to be raised up out of Adam, David & Abraham - God's righteousness was declared through an obedient life and that life and blood was an offering to God (as it was upon the altar)
Supporting texts: 1 Cor 15:45; Matt 1:1 - life is in the blood Lev 17:11

The irreconcilable issue: The authors basis of atonement is God becoming condemned man, whereas the Bible states emphatically, its the cleansing from pure blood (not literal) which represents an "obedient life" in whole service to Yahweh - not that Yahweh was being obedient to Yahweh.

To deliver man, Jesus Christ had to share his nature. We are in the presence of a mystery here.

Comment: See how Hypostasis destroys the atonement principles? Jesus had to be fully human and be tempted in all points as we are - his nature was condemned to die and death reigned over him all the days of his mortal life - he needed to die to sin (flesh) once that God might declare his righteousness through weak condemned nature, that through death he would destroy that which has the power of death, the devil (Sin = Rom 6:23).

The irreconcilable issue: The author introduces a mystery and rightly so! He is unable to reconcile hypostasis with Jesus' nature (and the atonement principles).

The fact that he himself partook of the same nature sums up the perfect humanity of Jesus. When this statement is set over against the statements in chapter 1, about the divine Sonship of Jesus, the mystery deepens.

Comment: Notice how the author uses the word perfect? Because he doesn't understand the nature of Jesus he is torn between the nature of God and the nature of Man.

Jesus states "none good" Matt 19:17
Jesus states only perfection found in the Father Matt 5:48
Jesus was made perfect - by putting of sins flesh Heb 5:9
Jesus made perfect through suffering Heb 2:10
Jesus' brothers and sisters are yet to be made perfect in him Heb 11:40

These and many Scriptures teach us that Jesus and his servants are imperfect in nature and that God has nothing to do with such imperfection other than to totally destroy it all the while upholding His righteousness.

Jesus is said to be crucified through weakness which the author has not consider in his "perfect nature" idea. Paul in 2 Cor 13:4 teaches his flesh was put to death through weakness and that he only lives because of the Spirit or rightly rendered, Power of God. Paul is also right to associated us with Christs weakness (imperfection in nature) due to its latent desires which prompt carnal thinking, temptation and sin.

Because the author of the commentary cannot see the indescribable agony which Jesus experienced every day of his probation (Luke 12:50NET) he has entirely missed the divine teaching on the atonement.

The irreconcilable issue: Trinitarians are forced between a "perfect nature" and an "imperfect one"; the Bible teaches that all flesh is corrupt and worthy of putting to death. In this matter the editor and author have acted foolishly Gal 3:3

God divine nature must be completely removed from the nature of Jesus Christ in order for the atonement to be understood.

His superiority to angels is set against his equality with man.

This superiority was never in nature as he was made a little lower than they, but in his exalted position he was clothed with the divine nature and given a name and authority greater than theirs. The author needs to appreciate Hebrews 1 is speaking of Jesus' inheritance while Heb 2 is speaking to his probation in the flesh.

Jesus was equal with man in terms of being condemned to death as all men, but in mind (Logos) he was only ever like his Father.

There can never be a wholly satisfactory explanation of these two facets of his nature, because man has no suitable frame of reference in which to consider it.

Comment: Yes this is true because there is no divine revelation on the two facets of his nature because his nature was as Paul express "Sins flesh" Rom 8:3 - A combination of sins flesh with divine nature would be only achievable if God could bring together light and darkness. Not only is this physically impossible the spiritual implications for any Christian would be catastrophic. God can and will only ever "divide" Gen 1:4;7

The irreconcilable issue: Here is Pauls teaching on the mystery Eph 5:32; 6:19; Col 1:26,27; 2:2 - Paul has gone to great lengths in the Epistle to Hebrews and the Romans to explain Jesus is in every respect the exact same flesh and his brothers. Heb 2:17 - in fact his High Priest status could only be achieved on that very basis Heb 5:1 (to represent them)

How could Jesus possess a hybrid nature and be like us in every way and represent us in our imperfect condition if as this author suggests there is a great mystery surrounding his nature?

Now that is irreconcilable!.

There are no human analogies. The writer is not concerned with theological debate, but with showing how closely Jesus Christ is identified with his people.

Comment: He is not interested in a debate because he has just admitted that he has no evidence or proof in what he believes. This is the irreconcilable issues for most in this forum.

Notice his words "how closely?" Pauls states in every way, every respect his nature was the same as those he came to represent.

There is doubt in this mans mind as to how closely Jesus was like his brothers and its that doubt which is caused by the Trinity.

It is significant that a different verb (meteschen) is used to describe what Jesus shared from that used (kekoinōnēken) to describe what the children shared. Although there is no essential difference in meaning, the change of tense from the perfect to the aorist suggests that Christ’s taking on human nature is a specific act in time; he became what he was not before (i.e. a man).

Comment: Finally after struggling to understand the verse as the author intended he is now forced to find a way to bring preexitence into the verse in a desperate attempt to support the Trinity.

The verse reads: “So, since children have flesh and blood in common (kekoinōnēken), he also shares (meteschen) in these same things.”

The Greek here is extremely simple where meteschen is often associated with ownership i.e. the condemned nature which Jesus bore was his entirely from birth Gal 4:4 and its was one he required saving from Heb 5:7

Conclusion:

I choose not to explore the atonement principles any deeper than stating that Jesus shared "our" exact nature and offered up a life of obedience to his Father, which was acceptable in His sight. The result of such a life was "declared" to be the Son of God (Rom 1:4) note: "by" the resurrection from the dead. In this declaring through his Son he also declared His own righteous treatment of flesh and blood (for all those who are in bondage to it) - Heb 2:15

Whom God hath set forth (Jesus) a propitiation through faith in his (Jesus) blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:25)

What the audience reading this needs to focus on is how was Gods righteousness manifested through Jesus Christ both in his nature and his sacrifice, death, resurrection from the dead.

I can tell you all here and now that it had nothing at all to do with God becoming man in the flesh - nothing what so ever.

P.

Heb.2:14 kekoinwneken, "have been in fellowship" The perfect tense reached back to Adam and continues on from that point.

metesxen, "shared" The historical aorist marking the moment and the fact of the Incarnation. This tense in no way implies that this sharing lasted only for a time and then ended.

Old, just the basics, Jack

Old Jack - Jesus shared in "our" nature not God's! - I think you need to go back and read Heb 2:14.

To emphasise this point the author states Jesus sharing in condemned nature in every respect and being an acceptable sacrifice for sin is able to... And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(Hebrews 2:15)

Of Jesus also Heb 5:7

Middle aged Purity over here keeping old Jack in his box!