The Issue of Calvinism.

[Preacher4Truth]

My question that I asked in the other thread, that has not been answered,

You've been answered several times.

is, How is a man born again, if not through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross?

1 Peter 1:3 is not only how we are born again, but gives the credit to the sole Source of our being born again.

It is God's work that a person believes, not man's work; John 6:29. We believe by the power that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19. No man has this power within himself, it is solely from God, and therefore cancels out being saved by decision, effort, or will; John 1:13; Romans 9:16.

Of course, these are the truths that many here have an aversion to, it is an aversion to giving God all the Glory and keeping some of the glory for self. It is the sin of Achan, Joshua 7; an outrageous sin.

 

[bbyrd009]

Work while it is day; the night is coming, when no man can work

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I take your point, yes.

But the idea that if only it hadn't been Calvin - in fact, it was the combination of the Little Council and the Great Council of Geneva that had titular responsibility for Servetus - in Geneva at the time, the Justinian Code would somehow have been interpreted differently in the case of Servetus: this would not be an accurate assumption.

Just to make clear, also: Servetus was not some kind of modern democrat with views which should be retrospectively deemed to be about peace, freedom and democracy for everyone. The historical record bears out that Servetus actually went to Geneva and demanded the death of Calvin. (So if this had happened as Servetus had wanted, all the Arminians and free-willers should logically come and talk fiction about supposedly poor, downtrodden Calvin in the way that they often talk fiction about Servetus.)

The issue again is what does the Bible say about redemption, eternal security, etc.? it's not about 16th century politics.

Hard to know what the truth is, but the records of Geneva's Council were made public a while back and it is clear that they did Calvin's dirty work. All of the Calvin apologists have tried to make things to be different, for obvious reasons. Servetus and Calvin were FRIENDS! They had corresponded for a number of years before Calvin had his "friend" (with friends like Calvin, who needs enemies?) executed (in a VERY cruel way). Servetus begged for mercy for a full half-hour while being slowly roasted alive from his feet up. Calvin never repented as far as anyone knows. The only thing he said was that maybe they should have used seasoned wood instead of green wood for the execution. What was the "crime" that Servetus committed? He dared to criticize some points put forward in a manuscript sent to him by Calvin. Calvin was so infuriated that he vowed that if Servetus came to visit, he would not leave Geneva alive.

Indeed, it is what does the Bible teach about redemption, eternal security and other theological issues, but it is also about the cautions given on false teachers by not only all of the New Testament writers but the Lord Jesus Himself.

 

[Dave L]

Hard to know what the truth is, but the records of Geneva's Council were made public a while back and it is clear that they did Calvin's dirty work. All of the Calvin apologists have tried to make things to be different, for obvious reasons. Servetus and Calvin were FRIENDS! They had corresponded for a number of years before Calvin had his "friend" (with friends like Calvin, who needs enemies?) executed (in a VERY cruel way). Servetus begged for mercy for a full half-hour while being slowly roasted alive from his feet up. Calvin never repented as far as anyone knows. The only thing he said was that maybe they should have used seasoned wood instead of green wood for the execution. What was the "crime" that Servetus committed? He dared to criticize some points put forward in a manuscript sent to him by Calvin. Calvin was so infuriated that he vowed that if Servetus came to visit, he would not leave Geneva alive.

Indeed, it is what does the Bible teach about redemption, eternal security and other theological issues, but it is also about the cautions given on false teachers by not only all of the New Testament writers but the Lord Jesus Himself.

Calvin says differently. Remember, God will judge us the way we judge others.

"For what particular act of mine you accuse me of cruelty I am anxious to know. I myself know not that act, unless it be with reference to the death of your great master, Servetus. But that I myself earnestly entreated that he might not be put to death his judges themselves are witnesses, in the number of whom at that time two were his staunch favourers and defenders. But I have said quite enough about myself." Calvin's Calvinism Translated Henry Cole P-346

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think I must be being ignored...

Why yes you are.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Calvin says differently. Remember, God will judge us the way we judge others.

"For what particular act of mine you accuse me of cruelty I am anxious to know. I myself know? not that act, unless it be with reference to the death of your great master, Servetus. But that I myself earnestly entreated that he might not be put to death his judges themselves are witnesses, in the number of whom at that time two were his staunch favourers and defenders. But I have said quite enough about myself." Calvin's Calvinism Translated Henry Cole P-346

Pesky facts will convince no one against their enslaved will. The libelous will libel no matter the facts.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

According to your narrative, there is a pivot point. That being either turning away from Jesus as the Rich Young Ruler at the time of the episode recorded in Matthew 19:16-24 or following Jesus. These are two mutually exclusive choices:
(1) turn away
(2) follow

You answered the inquiry with "No, I believe that He chose me". Based on this answer, you wrote "No" that you do not believe that you chose Jesus as well as you testifying that Jesus chose you.

Back to the pivot point, which by definition is a point of choice per your narrative, since you wrote "No, I believe that He chose me", that would mean that a power outside of you made the choice to follow Jesus.

Now, let us sit at the feet of the Master:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

"apart from Me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5)

"I know My own"
(John 10:14)

The testimony of the Apostle Peter, whom you quoted earlier:

"Lord, You know all things"
(John 21:17)

The Apostle John recorded:

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."
(John 6:70-71)

It is no small thing that the Lord Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus because that is knowledge in advance. Jesus knows all things.

The Lord Jesus knows His Own. He set no limitations as to time nor place.

What can a believer do apart from Jesus? Nothing.

Not only are people incapable of choosing the Lord Jesus, it is He Who chooses.

This is powerful love. This is compassion. That God would take dead creatures and breath in Life. Concerning Life, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
(John 14:6)

Nicodemus seemed quite in a quandry (verse 4) with an exchange between him and the Lord Jesus Christ, yet Lord Jesus makes it clear in the Spirit of the Living God:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus appears to be trying to figure out how Nicodemus can work to achieve being born again, yet even in that moment Nicodemus defers to the Master. The Master explains that flesh begets flesh and the Spirit of God brings birth from God Almighty. Notice that in verse 8 that Lord Jesus says "you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going". That "you" is not the Spirit of God for the Spirit of God acts in accord with God (John 16:13), the God Who knows His own as well as knows all things. This is a wonderful act of redemption by God that defies fleshly understanding which explains Nicodemus' initial response in verse 4. God tells us that salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

Was there a point that you were trying to make here? Please forgive me for saying so but, if there was a point, I failed to grasp what it was.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It depends on what you mean by 'perfect redemption'e pur Biblically.

Hello Farouk,
God is Holy, and Perfect in all His attributes
When He purposed to save, He purposed every single detail leaving no stone unturned.
Who,when, where, and how to save are ordained to precise times and means without defect.

What that means is on the last day and into eternity not one more person, not one less person could have been saved. Jesus seeks and saves everyone of the children given to Him by the Father

Everytime one of the posters objects to Eph3:9-11...they are doubting God's perfection and Holy Judgment

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I did not say that He "allows" it anywhere but in this mortal life.

Thank you for the clarification. Sometimes on a keyboard it does not make clear the intended meaning.
So you were speaking of the lack of immediate judgment on sin that happened in Acts 5.?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Perfect redemption when you don't believe in freewill means everybody is saved.

No
.this shows how defective your thoughts of God are.
You say that all people being saved would be perfect salvation. God who knows all did not think it necessary to consult you for your "feelings", or "thoughts".
Somehow He planned it without the thoughts of you or your confused posse of followers.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hello Farouk,
God is Holy, and Perfect in all His attributes
When He purposed to save, He purposed every single detail leaving no stone unturned.
Who,when, where, and how to save are ordained to precise times and means without defect.

What that means is on the last day and into eternity not one more person, not one less person could have been saved. Jesus seeks and saves everyone of the children given to Him by the Father

Everytime one of the posters objects to Eph3:9-11...they are doubting God's perfection and Joly Judgment

God determined when and where they born. God determined who their parents are. God determined the very second they will leave this earth. But the time in the middle His authority is null and void, as He’s handcuffed by their mythical free will.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Calvin says differently. Remember, God will judge us the way we judge others.

"There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[SovereignGrace]

No
.this shows how defective your thoughts of God are.
You say that all people being saved would be perfect salvation. God who knows all did not think it necessary to consult you for your "feelings", or "thoughts".
Somehow He planned it without the thoughts of you or your confused posse of followers.

Remember who you’re dealing with Brother. He twisted James 1:18 into meaning free will.

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.[James 1:18 NASB]

Notice how when you tip over their teraphim, that really ruffles their plumage.

 

[farouk]

Hard to know what the truth is, but the records of Geneva's Council were made public a while back and it is clear that they did Calvin's dirty work. All of the Calvin apologists have tried to make things to be different, for obvious reasons. Servetus and Calvin were FRIENDS! They had corresponded for a number of years before Calvin had his "friend" (with friends like Calvin, who needs enemies?) executed (in a VERY cruel way). Servetus begged for mercy for a full half-hour while being slowly roasted alive from his feet up. Calvin never repented as far as anyone knows. The only thing he said was that maybe they should have used seasoned wood instead of green wood for the execution. What was the "crime" that Servetus committed? He dared to criticize some points put forward in a manuscript sent to him by Calvin. Calvin was so infuriated that he vowed that if Servetus came to visit, he would not leave Geneva alive.

Indeed, it is what does the Bible teach about redemption, eternal security and other theological issues, but it is also about the cautions given on false teachers by not only all of the New Testament writers but the Lord Jesus Himself.

The version I have read is that Calvin was disturbed by the idea of Servetus being burned, but the Council ignored him and went ahead. What Servetus did was a crime, period, at the time, both in the Protestant and Roman Catholic areas of jurisdiction, according to the Justinian Code. It would not according to law be a crime now to deny the Trinity, as he did, but it was then.

I completely agree that the church and the state need to be separate. At that time such an arrangement was hardly known anywhere.

The point is that it's not helpful to understand doctrine through retrospectively written history that makes contemporary assumptions about how the various actors would have been likely to behave. In fact, it would in the end evasive to ignore Scripture teachings on the sovereignty of God, redemption, etc., simply because centuries ago someone did or did not do something.

So was it bad? Yes.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

This mockery is not worthy of a follower of Christ. Why is it that you Calvinists feel that it is your privilege to mock and belittle other Christians? Oh, I get it, you are like your master "theologerts the biblical zgian," John Calvin who was responsible for the execution and even torture of scores of people, as the virtual dictator of Geneva.

Like Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal, when your group mocks and perverts the biblical God and those attempting to follow Him, and we expose it for what it is , we somehow are said to be rude and arrogant.
When you see what you post slightly reworded to show the roots of it, you react violently and say it is mockery. You should be offended by those who elevate fallen man to the throne.
Does that add some clarity for you?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

"There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

First, one must be in Christ for this verse to apply. But you're using it as license, which is no surprise and tells a tale that isn't lovely. It reminds one of the solemn warning of Christ in Matthew 7:21-23.

Secondly, you, as all others, will give an account of the things done in the body; 2 Corinthians 5:10.

You like many others think because you are "saved" that Scripture concerning accountability "is for others," and, that you have a license to live in the flesh, libel, insult, and falsely accuse.

Sad, sad day.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Like Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal, when your group mocks and perverts the biblical God and those attempting to follow Him, and we expose it for what it is , we somehow are said to be rude and arrogant.
When you see what you post slightly reworded to show the roots of it, you react violently and say it is mockery. You should be offended by those who elevate fallen man to the throne.
Does that add some clarity for you?

BINGO!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

BINGO!

I had not read through this thread till my coffee break. Some are trying to work through it. Others are lazy and afraid to take a look.
What we have all noticed when confronted directly on an issue we then get flooded with all manner of off topic posts this thread is not about Calvin, Geneva, or any such thing

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Thank you for the clarification. Sometimes on a keyboard it does not make clear the intended meaning.
So you were speaking of the lack of immediate judgment on sin that happened in Acts 5.?

The Ananias and Sapphira episode was a peculiar event and it seems not to have occurred elsewhere in the NT except for the immediate judgment on Herod in Acts 12:23. Perhaps both of those events were a foretaste of what life will be like in the Millennial Kingdom, when the Lord rules "with a rod of iron"? Isaiah does seem to indicate that very long life will return and that "only sinners will die that young" (at 100).

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I had not read through this thread till my coffee break. Some are trying to work through it. Others are lazy and afraid to take a look.
What we have all noticed when confronted directly on an issue we then get flooded with all manner of off topic posts this thread is not about Calvin, Geneva, or any such thing

Unfortunately many are protecting the throne in their fight against the truth we've proclaimed.

The problem is they have themselves enthroned. Only God can "dethrone" them.