The Jehovah’s Witnesses Teach Jesus is Mighty God

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I said, YLT like the KJV are only man-made translations, and prone to have errors, because we humans are not infallible

So, how do we know which one is correct when comparing the two translations?

It seems to me that if one of them isn't authoritative, which Bible we will believe in is based solely on preference!

And this lends to men heaping to themselves teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell them what itching ears want to hear.

Genesis 1:1 is not what you say!

You are entitled to your opinion.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
So, how do we know which one is correct when comparing the two translations?

It seems to me that if one of them isn't authoritative, which Bible we will believe in is based solely on preference!

And this lends to men heaping to themselves teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell them what itching ears want to hear.



You are entitled to your opinion.

It has nothing to do with preference but knowing what the original language of the Bible actually says. That is why it is important to know Hebrew and Greek for yourself
 

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It has nothing to do with preference but knowing what the original language of the Bible actually says. That is why it is important to know Hebrew and Greek for yourself

Except that we no longer have the original manuscripts and therefore cannot know that the Greek or Hebrew rendering is even reliable.
 
Last edited:

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rather foolish argument

No; because we can be certain that we have the unadulterated message of the whole counsel of God based on the fact that God is sovereign and Omnipotent and loving.

And it is also a valid argument since it is true that we do not have the original manuscripts any more.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
No; because we can be certain that we have the unadulterated message of the whole counsel of God based on the fact that God is sovereign and Omnipotent and loving.

And it is also a valid argument since it is true that we do not have the original manuscripts any more.

So, according to you the Hebrew and Greek are not reliable, but the KJV is?

You have lost the plot
 

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, according to you the Hebrew and Greek are not reliable, but the KJV is?

You have lost the plot

Why would God preserve His unadulterated message in languages that few people understand any more?

It makes much more sense that He would preserve His message in the common language that most people speak today (common English which is spoken throughout the world).
 

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
937
419
63
85
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is the contention of the JW's that Jesus is "The Mighty God" but that He therefore is not "Almighty God".

To be consistent in their translation of the LORD always referring to Jehovah God, Psalms 50:1, in the kjv, would be rendered thus:

Psa 50:1, [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] The mighty God, even <Jehovah>, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

To me, this says it all.

Jehovah is "the mighty God".

And therefore, the son that was given, being "the Mighty God" is Jehovah (Isaiah 9:6).

Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom

more JW' twisting of the Truth!

WHY does this article OMIT the reference in the next chapter (10:21), where we read in the Jewish translation of Isaac Leeser, " The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God". The Hebrew here is exactly as in 9:6, "’êl Gibbôr"? Leeser translates 9:6 as, "For a child is born unto us, a son hath been given unto us, and the government is placed on his shoulders; and his name is called, Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace"
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,778
503
113
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
more JW' twisting of the Truth!

WHY does this article OMIT the reference in the next chapter (10:21), where we read in the Jewish translation of Isaac Leeser, " The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God". The Hebrew here is exactly as in 9:6, "’êl Gibbôr"? Leeser translates 9:6 as, "For a child is born unto us, a son hath been given unto us, and the government is placed on his shoulders; and his name is called, Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace"
Yes his NAME are called those things, not him. It was God who did all of it through Jesus,( Acts 2:22, 1Cor 8:5-6) Jesus takes no credit-John 5:30) And at Heb 1:4 is clear its because God gave Jesus that name that made him above the angels. Otherwise was equal to them.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Yes his NAME are called those things, not him. It was God who did all of it through Jesus,( Acts 2:22, 1Cor 8:5-6) Jesus takes no credit-John 5:30) And at Heb 1:4 is clear its because God gave Jesus that name that made him above the angels. Otherwise was equal to them.

Jesus Christ is YAHWEH, Almighty God, and for the JW's JEHOVAH!

Only One Who is YAHWEH is The Absolute Creator of the universe. In Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ as the Direct, Absolute Creator of the universe! The Father here applies the words from Psam 102:24-27, where it is used for ELOHIM, and says that this is JESUS CHRIST!

In Isaiah 48:12-13, Jesus Christ is the Speaker:

"Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel my called: I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread out the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together"

In verse 16 it is clear that this Person is distinct from "the Lord Jehovah" (ASV), Who He says "sends" Him.

In the passage in verses 12-13, Jesus Christ affirms His Eternity by the words, "I am the first, I also am the last", which is the basis for the Hebrew YAHWEH = The Eternal God. Here Jesus also says that He is the Direct Creator of the entire universe, not just some middle agent!

Hebrew 1:6, God the Father Commands the Worship of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father Address Jesus Christ as "Your Throne O God...therefore Your God, O God", which is clear that there are TWO Distinct Persons Who are 100% EQUAL GOD

In the Original text of John 1:18, it says: "God [the Father] no one has ever seen. The Unique God [Jesus Christ] who is at the Father's side, He has made Him known"

Two Distinct Persons Who are EQUALLY called GOD!

This is Bible Facts!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,778
503
113
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus Christ is YAHWEH, Almighty God, and for the JW's JEHOVAH!

Only One Who is YAHWEH is The Absolute Creator of the universe. In Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ as the Direct, Absolute Creator of the universe! The Father here applies the words from Psam 102:24-27, where it is used for ELOHIM, and says that this is JESUS CHRIST!

In Isaiah 48:12-13, Jesus Christ is the Speaker:

"Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel my called: I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread out the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together"

In verse 16 it is clear that this Person is distinct from "the Lord Jehovah" (ASV), Who He says "sends" Him.

In the passage in verses 12-13, Jesus Christ affirms His Eternity by the words, "I am the first, I also am the last", which is the basis for the Hebrew YAHWEH = The Eternal God. Here Jesus also says that He is the Direct Creator of the entire universe, not just some middle agent!

Hebrew 1:6, God the Father Commands the Worship of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father Address Jesus Christ as "Your Throne O God...therefore Your God, O God", which is clear that there are TWO Distinct Persons Who are 100% EQUAL GOD

In the Original text of John 1:18, it says: "God [the Father] no one has ever seen. The Unique God [Jesus Christ] who is at the Father's side, He has made Him known"

Two Distinct Persons Who are EQUALLY called GOD!

This is Bible Facts!
In the OT--YHWH said to my Lord(Jesus) proves he is not YHWH.
No worship ever goes to one who has a God, Jesus has a God( John 20:17, Rev 3:12)--That Greek word has 5 different meanings from Greek to English=Proskenaue--1) worship to God-2) obeisance toa king-3) honor toa judge-2 others-- Jesus=Gods appointed king-obeisance is the correct usage for him. Your translations are not only altered( removal of Gods name by satans will) but filled with errors to mislead, by satans will. Through his religion=2Thess 2:3=Catholicism. And her hundreds of protestant branches that used her translating.
Jesus is first and last in many things, but is not God. He is Gods son.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
In the OT--YHWH said to my Lord(Jesus) proves he is not YHWH.
No worship ever goes to one who has a God, Jesus has a God( John 20:17, Rev 3:12)--That Greek word has 5 different meanings from Greek to English=Proskenaue--1) worship to God-2) obeisance toa king-3) honor toa judge-2 others-- Jesus=Gods appointed king-obeisance is the correct usage for him. Your translations are not only altered( removal of Gods name by satans will) but filled with errors to mislead, by satans will. Through his religion=2Thess 2:3=Catholicism. And her hundreds of protestant branches that used her translating.
Jesus is first and last in many things, but is not God. He is Gods son.

WHY does the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT render the Greek verb "προσκυνέω" ONLY in Hebrews 1:6, when it refers to Jesus Christ, as "obeisance", but, when for the Father as "worship"?

In John 20:28, Thomas says DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ in Address: "Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου", which is correctly translated in English as "my Lord and my God". Even the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr George Winer, admits that the words are “directed to Jesus (εἶπεν αὐτῷ)” (Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p. 228)

“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality.

John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH, “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL. The SAME Greek verb used in Hebrews 1:6 for Jesus Christ, is here used in Revelation 5, for BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ, EQUALLY!

In Psalm 110:5, speaking of "My Lord" in verse 1, it goes on to say, "The Lord is at Your Right Hand". Interestingly, in about 20 Hebrews manuscripts of the Jews on this, the Hebrew is "Yahweh". "Your Right Hand", is the first "LORD" in verse 1, Who is also called "Yahweh". in this Psalm we have TWO Distinct Persons Who are YAHWEH. It is clear that the Jews corrupted this Psalm when they discovered that it refers to Jesus Christ! John 1:1 is also very clear, that there are TWO Distinct Persons Who are GOD, as in verse 18, in the Original text, which I see you ignore as it destroys what you believe!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,778
503
113
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WHY does the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT render the Greek verb "προσκυνέω" ONLY in Hebrews 1:6, when it refers to Jesus Christ, as "obeisance", but, when for the Father as "worship"?

In John 20:28, Thomas says DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ in Address: "Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου", which is correctly translated in English as "my Lord and my God". Even the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr George Winer, admits that the words are “directed to Jesus (εἶπεν αὐτῷ)” (Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p. 228)

“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality.

John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH, “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL. The SAME Greek verb used in Hebrews 1:6 for Jesus Christ, is here used in Revelation 5, for BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ, EQUALLY!

In Psalm 110:5, speaking of "My Lord" in verse 1, it goes on to say, "The Lord is at Your Right Hand". Interestingly, in about 20 Hebrews manuscripts of the Jews on this, the Hebrew is "Yahweh". "Your Right Hand", is the first "LORD" in verse 1, Who is also called "Yahweh". in this Psalm we have TWO Distinct Persons Who are YAHWEH. It is clear that the Jews corrupted this Psalm when they discovered that it refers to Jesus Christ! John 1:1 is also very clear, that there are TWO Distinct Persons Who are GOD, as in verse 18, in the Original text, which I see you ignore as it destroys what you believe!
The Father is the only true God as Jesus taught( John 17:3) he deserves worship. Jesus is not God, he is Gods son. There is only 1 God.
Yes they worshipped the one sitting on the throne, not the lamb. You assume its to the lamb.
Facts show 100% Jesus is not coequal. All authority had to be given to him. The name which made him above the angels was given to him from God as well( Heb 1:4)-God created all things, but did 99.9% through Jesus( Coll 1:15)-- Jesus didnt create them, YHWH did=the only one with power. YHWH was king- 1Chron 16:31--Yet Jesus had to be appointed to a kingship, then he must hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself( 1 Cor 15:24-28)-- How is there any equality when one is in subjection to the other?
LORD all capitols=YHWH--Lord any other way is not YHWH. LORD does not belong in the OT, nor does GOD all capitols-YHWH belongs at every one of those spots.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.