The Journey in the Wilderness

[quietthinker]

Joh 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Points to note:

1. The lamb was a sacrificial animal among the Jews. God had taught His chosen people to slay a lamb and to sprinkle its blood as a sacrifice.
2. The lamb was killed as a substitute and its blood shed so that sins might be forgiven.
3. However, the blood of the lambs slain during the OT period did not put away sin.
4. Those lambs were pictures or types, pointing forward to the fact that God would one day provide a Lamb who would actually take away the sin.
5. All down through the years, godly Jews had waited for the coming of this Lamb.
6. Now at last the time had come, and John the Baptist triumphantly announced the arrival of the true Lamb of God.
7. Whereas the Jewish sacrifices as a type were intended for one nation only, the fulfillment of the type is intended for all nations.

Rev 5:6-7

(6) And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
(7) Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Points to ponder:

1. The power of the Lamb
2. The riches of the Lamb
3. The wisdom of the Lamb
4. The strength of the Lamb
5. The honor of the Lamb
6. The glory of the Lamb
7. The blessing of the Lamb

Rev 5:11-14
(11) Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
(12) saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
(13) And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
(14) Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


A Point to be aware of:

Without the shedding of the precious blood of the Lamb there would be no salvation for anyone, either now or in the Judgment to come !!!

(Thanks to the Believers' Bible Commentary for material collated)

The Priests said the forgiveness is through sacrifice
John the Baptist said forgiveness is by repentance and baptism...no slain lambs needed
Jesus forgave before he was asked....nothing needed....even before people repented eg, the woman caught in adultery, the paralytic lowered through the roof, the wayward son forgiven by the father of the prodigal with a party thrown in.

Could it be that God revealed his nature in becoming a man without revenge....or does love stop at some point?....and if it does, what does that say about God? Wouldn't Lucifer's claims be justified if love stopped somewhere? ....but Jesus loved to the point of giving his life....in other words, he would rather die than have his wayward children die.

Lend your ear to the two podcasts links I posted in #16.....then come and talk to me.

 

[Curtis]

Soooo, God is that mad he needs his wrath appeasing by killing? Is that the picture Jesus portrays of God?....an angry God who needs appeasing? I know that is the picture people have of the Gods of this world but the God of Jesus is hardly in line with this?

Did you not read, Jesus saved us from Gods wrath, by taking our sins?

 

[Stumpmaster]

..no slain lambs needed

Scripture assures of the necessity of the sacrifice to redeem transgressors and deliver the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:15-16
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

 

[quietthinker]

Scripture assures of the necessity of the sacrifice to redeem transgressors and deliver the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:15-16
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Jesus forgave with no precedence....no lambs, no baptism, no repentance. He forgave because he loved. Only one who loves holds no account of wrongs.....all else becomes 'payment' ...and payment, it is not love .....love is gratuitous, it does not set a bar to jump over.

Let's use this to illustrate....a Downs syndrome child/person or someone affected by foetal alcohol syndrome.... do you blame them for their condition? of course not! Does God blame us for our disposition to sin, for something which wasn't our fault, something which we were born with, something passed on genetically from Adam. Are babies to blame because they die, of course not...and God doesn't hold it against them....he loves them as he does us all.

Can God forgive without sacrifice? It would depend on how this question is viewed. If we think he needs appeasing we have misunderstood the God of Jesus or have never met him.

But, if we see that the Creator has forever limited himself to a human body, that he allowed himself to be bruised and beaten and killed when he had the power to side step the whole sordid affair and because he would draw your admiration because you are gobsmacked by this ongoing unselfish manifestation....then you have seen something that relatively few of Earth's inhabitants have understood....you have seen a sacrifice of immeasurable proportions.

 

[Enoch111]

I see...so sin was cancelled by the sacrifices of animals?.....hmmm

Not cancelled. "Covered" until the sacrifice of Christ. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

does God need the sacrifice?

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not cancelled. "Covered"

Not cancelled. “Covered” …hidden? Temporary. Not able to remove sin but cover it up and genders wrath.

until the sacrifice of Christ. BIG DIFFERENCE.

“Until the sacrifice of Christ”
Until the Mercy of Christ? Who reveals sin and reproves it rather than covers it up?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
Gen 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

“And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. Consider: Jeremiah 7:32-34 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. [33] And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. [34] Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Ezekiel 39:17-19 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God ; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. [18] Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [19] And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

Luke 22:20-22 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. [21] But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but WOE unto that man by whom he is betrayed! the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Revelation 19:16-18 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

1 Samuel 17:43-47 And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. [44] And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. [45] Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

pause there at David’s words, yet are they David’s words alone or The Word to come? “Truly, the Son of man goeth, as determined” That “the scriptures must be fulfilled” in Mark 14:48-53 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me? [49] I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. [50] And they all forsook him, and fled. [51] And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body ; and the young men laid hold on him: [52] And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked. [53] And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.

Because Jesus Christ could have easily said:
Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
When And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.


Then back to David [46] This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. (truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but WOE unto that man by whom he is betrayed! the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.)

47] And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.

“And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.”
all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's
1 Corinthians 11:20-24,26-33 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. [21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [22] What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. [33] Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

1 Samuel 17:43-47 And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. [44] And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. [45] Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.


Matthew 15:23-28 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [25] Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. [26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. [28] Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

 

[Enoch111]

Not cancelled. “Covered” …hidden? Temporary. Not able to remove sin but cover it up and genders wrath.

How do you manage to misunderstand Scripture? Do you not know that the sacrifices of animals could not remove sin? At the same time they prevented the wrath of God since God the Father saw through them the sacrifice of His Son AS AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT?

No. Animal sacrifices by no means gendered wrath. However, animal sacrifices without obedience to the other commandments were not acceptable to God. And Christ does not cover up sins. He commands you to confess them and forsake them. As I have already posted in another thread, I will re-post the relevant passage:

1 JOHN 1: FELLOWSHIP IS NOT ABOUT SALVATION
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No. Animal sacrifices by no means gendered wrath.

Isaiah 1:11-18 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord : I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? [13] Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. [14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. [15] And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. [16] Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; [17] Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. [18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord : though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Hebrews 10:6-8 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein ; which are offered by the law;

 

[amigo de christo]

why does God need sacrifice?

To appease his Wrath . POnder on that one . GOD IS RIGHTEOUS and HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT
demands the total annhilation and destruction of evil . PRAISE GOD FOR JESUS . FOR all who do believe
shall be saved from , delivered from , the wrath of GOD . WHICH IS and WHICH WILL SURELY COME upon the ungodly who rejected CHRIST . .

 

[Enoch111]

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord

I already told you that God did not accept sacrifices when His other commandments were disobeyed. So there was no need to post this. What you should have posted is all the sacrifices demanded in Leviticus which would go along with obedience to God..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I already told you that God did not accept sacrifices when His other commandments were disobeyed. So there was no need to post this. What you should have posted is all the sacrifices demanded in Leviticus which would go along with obedience to God..

Thankfully Romans 7:6-14 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(shut up); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. [7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

[VictoryinJesus]

heading back to Noah.. 40 days on the water..
Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Any input on “and the Lord shut him in.” “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(shut up); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

Galatians 3:22-23 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. [21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Context is everything when applying Scripture:

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

The cults that portray God only as a benevolent provider of prosperity who never expresses anger at stubborn, wilful unrighteousness and iniquity are as deceived as the day is long, as are those who deny the foreordaining of Christ's sacrifice as God's Plan rather than Satan's.

Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

1Pe 1:17-21 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; (18) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, (19) but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. (20) He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (21) who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

As if Satan is going to prefigure, foreshadow, and prophecy his intention to bring about salvation, reconciliation, sanctification, and hope for sinners by causing God incarnate to suffer persecution, betrayal, and crucifixion.

In fact Satan tried to divert Christ from going to the Cross to fulfill God's Will.

 

[quietthinker]

To appease his Wrath . POnder on that one . GOD IS RIGHTEOUS and HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT
demands the total annhilation and destruction of evil . PRAISE GOD FOR JESUS . FOR all who do believe
shall be saved from , delivered from , the wrath of GOD . WHICH IS and WHICH WILL SURELY COME upon the ungodly who rejected CHRIST . .

perhaps you can tell me about 'appeasing God's wrath'?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Context is everything when applying Scripture:

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

The cults that portray God only as a benevolent provider of prosperity who never expresses anger at stubborn, wilful unrighteousness and iniquity are as deceived as the day is long, as are those who deny the foreordaining of Christ's sacrifice as God's Plan rather than Satan's.

Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

1Pe 1:17-21 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; (18) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, (19) but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. (20) He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (21) who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

As if Satan is going to prefigure, foreshadow, and prophecy his intention to bring about salvation, reconciliation, sanctification, and hope for sinners by causing God incarnate to suffer persecution, betrayal, and crucifixion.

In fact Satan tried to divert Christ from going to the Cross to fulfill God's Will.

I’m not disputing that God hates lies and sin.
2 Corinthians 5:10-12 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. [11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. [12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I already told you that God did not accept sacrifices when His other commandments were disobeyed. So there was no need to post this. What you should have posted is all the sacrifices demanded in Leviticus which would go along with obedience to God..

God desired Living sacrifices(mercy), not dead sacrifices. Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

“by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a loving sacrifice” which (Imo) embodies “For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

Mark 12:28-33 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? [29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. [31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. [32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: [33] And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

(1 Corinthians 15:17-21) Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

 

[Enoch111]

God desired Living sacrifices(mercy), not dead sacrifices.

Read the books of the Torah to learn what you have not grasped. For over 1,500 years God required dead sacrifices according to His very detailed and strict requirements. We read about living sacrifices only after the finished work of Christ. Or are you denying that He died on the cross for your sins and mine? And are you denying the connection between the animal sacrifices as types of the sacrifice of Christ?