The Koran has corrected the Jews

[John839]

I have read the entire Koran. And truly, this book is not the truth and does not lead to paradise. But still, there is an interesting passage that is truth.

There is a verse in the Quran that says: "Whoever kills one human being has killed a whole humanity". There is a similar sentence in the Talmud, where it says: "Whoever kills a Jew has killed a whole humanity".

In the Talmud it does not say "Whoever kills a human being..." as in the Koran, but "Whoever kills a Jew..." This is because the Jews have deluded themselves into thinking that they are more special than gentiles. The Talmud states in many passages that Jews are above Gentiles. In fact, it is propagated as if Gentiles are not even human, but cattle. This is racism, which the Bible condemns. The Bible has never said that Jews are better.

The Koran has taken this passage from the Talmud and improved it. Truly, the Muslims are wiser than the Jews.

But what does the sentence mean: "Whoever kills one human being has killed a whole humanity"? A human being has seed in his loins and through this seed a humanity can come into being. All humankind came into being through Adam's seed. So it means that if you kill one human being, you also kill his descendants. You are basically killing an entire humankind.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hello @John839, I believe that you and others may find the following article excerpt enlightening.

First off, it seems that the Koran did not "improve" what was written by the Jews in their oral tradition, rather, they copied Rabbinic Judaism's ORIGINAL wording of the passage (Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). As I believe that you will see, the addition of "in Israel" was a later addition, one which I believed (prior to my reading of the article below) was added because it dealt specifically with Jews and the Sanhedrin/the Jewish court system (so, it has nothing to do with racism and/or Jews believing that they are superior to Gentiles .. edit: though I cannot say that some Jews do not believe that they are "more special than Gentiles", it seems to me that such was not the thought/intent in this case, IOW, not the thinking of those who revised the Mishnah Sanhedrin by adding the words "in Israel" to the tradition in some of the later editions).

​

The Origins of the Precept "Whoever Saves a Life Saves the World"​

And what they tell us about particularism and universalism in Jewish tradition.​

.​

.......this is not plagiarism. Although Muhammad and early Islam borrowed a great deal from the rabbinic Judaism of their times without acknowledging it, such is not the case here. On the contrary: the whole thrust of (Sura) 5:32 is that the precept in question is an originally Jewish one that the “Children of Israel” have sinfully failed to live up to. Indeed, the Arabic verb generally rendered by Quranic translations as “we have ordained” or “we have prescribed” is katabuna, “we have written.” So whether or not the Quran was aware of where in Jewish tradition the precept came from (Muhammad may have thought it to be biblical), it (Sura 5:32) was understood to belong to the sacred literature of the Jewish people, revealed to them by God’s “messengers” before the advent of Islam.​

​

This presents us with an important and (to the best of my knowledge) hitherto neglected piece of evidence that bears on an intriguing textual problem. The problem lies in determining the original form of the “whoever saves a life” precept, because it exists in two different versions. The best-known place for the first version is the standard edition of the Mishnaic tractate of Sanhedrin, the fourth chapter of which deals with trials and court procedure. There, in a discussion of the need to warn witnesses of the heavy responsibility resting on their shoulders in cases involving possible capital punishment, the Mishnah declares that they should be told:​

​

Therefore, Adam [from whom all humanity descended] was created singly, to teach us that whoever destroys a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have destroyed the whole world and whoever saves a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have saved the whole world.​

​

The Mishnah was redacted in Palestine in the vicinity of 250 CE. The oldest surviving codices of it, however, date to the Middle Ages, and in some of these we have a different version of our precept in which the words “in Israel” are left out. One of these, for example, written in Parma, Italy in the mid-13th century, reads:​

​

Whoever destroys a single life is considered by Scripture to have destroyed the whole world, and whoever saves a single life is considered by Scripture to have saved the whole world.​

​

Which version of the precept is the original one? ​

​

In an article published in 1971 in the Hebrew journal Tarbitz, the Israeli scholar of rabbinic thought Ephraim Urbach addressed this question by carefully comparing a large number of ancient and medieval rabbinic texts and manuscripts and their early print editions. His conclusions were clear-cut: the original version of the “Whoever saves a life” precept was the one without the limiting phrase of “in Israel,” which was a later interpolation. Urbach argued, the words “in Israel” were probably inserted because the situation discussed in Sanhedrin applied only to Jews; in Mishnaic times, Jewish courts in Palestine had no jurisdiction over Gentiles.​

​

The interesting thing about Sura 5 of the Quran is that, although unmentioned by Urbach, it confirms his findings. That is not only because of the wording in verse 32 itself—where the Arabic text speaks of saving the life of any human being—but also because of the context in which it occurs. Much of Sura 5 consists of an attack on Jews and Christians for thinking that they alone possess divine truth and are the sole objects of God’s concern. Verse 18, for instance, states: “And the Jews and Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and his beloved ones. . . . Nay, you are mortals from among those whom he has created. He forgives whom he pleases and chastises whom he pleases.” Allah loves all men, not just the followers of Moses and Jesus, although they were his messengers, too.​

​

Had the original version of the precept in Sanhedrin been “Whoever saves a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have saved the whole world,” would not the Quran have played this up as one more proof that the Jews care only about other Jews and believe that God cares only about them, too? The fact that it does not do this establishes, I think, that the version known to it was the “whoever saves a single life” one, without the “in Israel” interpolation. The Jews, Muhammad is saying as part of his claim that Islam is the one truth faith, talk about being responsible for the entire human race but don’t act as if they were. Thanks go to Raed Saleh for bringing this to our attention.​

​

(I felt that I needed to include quite a bit of the article in the excerpt above, but if you'd like to read it all, please click on the link below)​

​

~The Origins of the Precept "Whoever Saves a Life Saves the World" » Mosaic​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I have read the entire Koran. And truly, this book is not the truth and does not lead to paradise. But still, there is an interesting passage that is truth.

There is a verse in the Quran that says: "Whoever kills one human being has killed a whole humanity". There is a similar sentence in the Talmud, where it says: "Whoever kills a Jew has killed a whole humanity".

In the Talmud it does not say "Whoever kills a human being..." as in the Koran, but "Whoever kills a Jew..." This is because the Jews have deluded themselves into thinking that they are more special than gentiles. The Talmud states in many passages that Jews are above Gentiles. In fact, it is propagated as if Gentiles are not even human, but cattle. This is racism, which the Bible condemns. The Bible has never said that Jews are better.

The Koran has taken this passage from the Talmud and improved it. Truly, the Muslims are wiser than the Jews.

But what does the sentence mean: "Whoever kills one human being has killed a whole humanity"? A human being has seed in his loins and through this seed a humanity can come into being. All humankind came into being through Adam's seed. So it means that if you kill one human being, you also kill his descendants. You are basically killing an entire humankind.

The Bible does not condemn Racism at all.
Every person regardless is a racist in fact !
Just to say or point out another race makes you a racist in fact.
Racial Prejudice is a issue because it means that such a one is stupid in fact !

Identifying a race or races is fine and having a handle on the History and all such things has to do with intelligence in fact .

People who are ignorant of other races are idiots or Communist ? Communist lower everyone down to the lowest common denominator in fact, why because you are a Slave and owned !

The Jews were given the Land ? see that ! The Jews were given that Land ! The Jews ! no one other ? see that ! The Jews were given that Land and why ? Why was it given ? and why was it taken away by God ?
For if they were Gods people it was theirs in fact.

God has not given the Jews the land back in fact, but the workings of Man has done that in fact ?

Now the real Jews who came to Christ Jesus truly own that Land, from the day that Jesus went to Heaven in fact, for they were proven to be the people of God, but who resides in that Land nowadays is not worthy of God in fact.

See Holy Moses pointed everything out, The bastard Jews tried to Kill Moses, see the bastard Jews made a golden calf etc etc all through the Jews history they were in a struggle against idiots within Judah, It's the same issue with any people in fact.

All races have had the same basic issues and problems and they have to be addressed !
just as all Nations have the same issues that have to be addressed !
Not like the Communist who have a backwards solution in by lowering everyone to a Slave ? but that's not worthy of being a human in fact !
But that's the premise of Communism ! you are cattle to them in fact, typical of Satan ! The Lost !
What did Moses say regarding that ? Let my people go ! Why was that ? Well because his people are Gods People ? not to be enslaved and why not too be enslaved ? Well it's because God is above Man in fact and a worthy people who have been called out, are not to be enslaved by the works of Man in fact. For such are not of who Jesus pointed out, Of their Father who was a murdered and a Liar from the beginning ?

The issues have to be solved by the people themselves in fact and you will never resolve the foundations of such issues without Christ Jesus in fact.

People who are not Saved are Slaves in fact, to themselves and to the world for they are a curse in fact. and the antidote is Christ Jesus in fact ! The buck starts with you to grow up ! i do n't give a rats what ones race is ! but hey fact is their are issues with such as all are not the same in fact, Bible talks about Jews and Greeks and about the Tribes of the Jews and of the Churches that are called out for an issue !

If their is an issue then their is a reason why such exist ! and it starts with them to have a good look at themselves first to get their act together, than blaming others ?

I can start calling others in general out regarding their race or Nation, not to mention my own Nation, why do i do such because it's a fact or true. I have issues with people because they are themselves to blame in fact. and i do not care who they are, for if it's true it's true.

God said and Jesus said things ? why because it's true in fact ! and people who reject such or do not understand such are a curse in fact.

I do not care what people may think. i only care what they know.

And you know what, people are different everywhere you go in fact all around the world.
Do you want to live in Russia or Ukraine or Iran or India etc ? Why the hell not ! I don't because i am not that stupid !
I respected where and how i grew up in in fact ! but that is being robbed from me by trash people who are deranged fools, for they are destroying everything that i loved because they are bastards that are undermining everything that i valued and that has nothing to do with a race, but just because they are idiots and morons who swallow everything that the Godless bastard Governments peddle.

 

[amigo de christo]

The koran , like many other books though they can contain truths , IS A LIE INDEED .
I have no need to learn from that unholy book . I can learn all i need to know in the BIBLE .
We should not take our notes from false books peroid . Rather open bible and learn well those pages .
Do be encouraged everyone .

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I have read the entire Koran

Sorry to hear that.

Christians should not be touching that which is unclean according to God's Word (2 Corinthians 6:17) and messing with the korans is definite;ly unclean!

 

[John839]

Hello @John839, I believe that you and others may find the following article excerpt enlightening.

First off, it seems that the Koran did not "improve" what was written by the Jews in their oral tradition, rather, they copied Rabbinic Judaism's ORIGINAL wording of the passage (Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). As I believe that you will see, the addition of "in Israel" was a later addition, one which I believed (prior to my reading of the article below) was added because it dealt specifically with Jews and the Sanhedrin/the Jewish court system (so, it has nothing to do with racism and/or Jews believing that they are superior to Gentiles .. edit: though I cannot say that some Jews do not believe that they are "more special than Gentiles", it seems to me that such was not the thought/intent in this case, IOW, not the thinking of those who revised the Mishnah Sanhedrin by adding the words "in Israel" to the tradition in some of the later editions).

​

The Origins of the Precept "Whoever Saves a Life Saves the World"​

And what they tell us about particularism and universalism in Jewish tradition.​

.​

.......this is not plagiarism. Although Muhammad and early Islam borrowed a great deal from the rabbinic Judaism of their times without acknowledging it, such is not the case here. On the contrary: the whole thrust of (Sura) 5:32 is that the precept in question is an originally Jewish one that the “Children of Israel” have sinfully failed to live up to. Indeed, the Arabic verb generally rendered by Quranic translations as “we have ordained” or “we have prescribed” is katabuna, “we have written.” So whether or not the Quran was aware of where in Jewish tradition the precept came from (Muhammad may have thought it to be biblical), it (Sura 5:32) was understood to belong to the sacred literature of the Jewish people, revealed to them by God’s “messengers” before the advent of Islam.​

​

This presents us with an important and (to the best of my knowledge) hitherto neglected piece of evidence that bears on an intriguing textual problem. The problem lies in determining the original form of the “whoever saves a life” precept, because it exists in two different versions. The best-known place for the first version is the standard edition of the Mishnaic tractate of Sanhedrin, the fourth chapter of which deals with trials and court procedure. There, in a discussion of the need to warn witnesses of the heavy responsibility resting on their shoulders in cases involving possible capital punishment, the Mishnah declares that they should be told:​

​

​

The Mishnah was redacted in Palestine in the vicinity of 250 CE. The oldest surviving codices of it, however, date to the Middle Ages, and in some of these we have a different version of our precept in which the words “in Israel” are left out. One of these, for example, written in Parma, Italy in the mid-13th century, reads:​

​

​

Which version of the precept is the original one? ​

​

In an article published in 1971 in the Hebrew journal Tarbitz, the Israeli scholar of rabbinic thought Ephraim Urbach addressed this question by carefully comparing a large number of ancient and medieval rabbinic texts and manuscripts and their early print editions. His conclusions were clear-cut: the original version of the “Whoever saves a life” precept was the one without the limiting phrase of “in Israel,” which was a later interpolation. Urbach argued, the words “in Israel” were probably inserted because the situation discussed in Sanhedrin applied only to Jews; in Mishnaic times, Jewish courts in Palestine had no jurisdiction over Gentiles.​

​

The interesting thing about Sura 5 of the Quran is that, although unmentioned by Urbach, it confirms his findings. That is not only because of the wording in verse 32 itself—where the Arabic text speaks of saving the life of any human being—but also because of the context in which it occurs. Much of Sura 5 consists of an attack on Jews and Christians for thinking that they alone possess divine truth and are the sole objects of God’s concern. Verse 18, for instance, states: “And the Jews and Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and his beloved ones. . . . Nay, you are mortals from among those whom he has created. He forgives whom he pleases and chastises whom he pleases.” Allah loves all men, not just the followers of Moses and Jesus, although they were his messengers, too.​

​

Had the original version of the precept in Sanhedrin been “Whoever saves a single life in Israel is considered by Scripture to have saved the whole world,” would not the Quran have played this up as one more proof that the Jews care only about other Jews and believe that God cares only about them, too? The fact that it does not do this establishes, I think, that the version known to it was the “whoever saves a single life” one, without the “in Israel” interpolation. The Jews, Muhammad is saying as part of his claim that Islam is the one truth faith, talk about being responsible for the entire human race but don’t act as if they were. Thanks go to Raed Saleh for bringing this to our attention.​

​

(I felt that I needed to include quite a bit of the article in the excerpt above, but if you'd like to read it all, please click on the link below)​

​

~The Origins of the Precept "Whoever Saves a Life Saves the World" » Mosaic​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

According to Chabad.org, an official and well-known Jewish website, the passage in Sanhedrin 4:5 (and Sanhedrin 37a) reads as follows:

...anyone who destroys one soul from the Jewish people, i.e., kills one Jew, the verse ascribes him blame as if he destroyed an entire world, as Adam was one person, from whom the population of an entire world came forth. And conversely, anyone who sustains one soul from the Jewish people, the verse ascribes him credit as if he sustained an entire world.

You claim that this passage has been falsified. But that is not what Chabad.org says, a website run by renowned rabbis. There is not even a note that this passage has been changed. If the passage has been falsified, as you claim, why doesn't Chabad.org correct this? I trust Chabad.org more than an unknown guy like you.

It remains: The Koran has corrected the Jews.

 

[Papa Smurf]

According to Chabad.org, an official and well-known Jewish website, the passage in Sanhedrin 4:5 (and Sanhedrin 37a) reads as follows:

...anyone who destroys one soul from the Jewish people, i.e., kills one Jew, the verse ascribes him blame as if he destroyed an entire world, as Adam was one person, from whom the population of an entire world came forth. And conversely, anyone who sustains one soul from the Jewish people, the verse ascribes him credit as if he sustained an entire world.

Hello again John839, yes, Chabad.org is an excellent website (I use it often), though it's principal concern is Jewish "living", where Mosaic Magazine's purpose is less about Jewish living and more about advancing Jewish thought (which is, in point of fact, the magazine's stated "purpose" in its title).

If you read the Mosaic article that I posited for you above (an article that deals with this thread's specific issue) you'll see two things. One, that the statements in question in the Mishnah Sanhedrin (the ones that seem oriented towards Israel and her people alone, that is) are the ones that are in popular use today (a point that Mosaic clearly makes for us, BTW), and two, you'll also read why they (the Jewish/Israel oriented statements) are used/preferred, and also why there is nothing nefarious (racist) about it.

You claim that this passage has been falsified.

I made no such claim. Revisions/redactions etc., are made to documents (both sacred and secular) for all kinds of different reasons, but that hardly means that they "falsify" the original documents.

But that is not what Chabad.org says, a website run by renowned rabbis. There is not even a note that this passage has been changed. If the passage has been falsified, as you claim, why doesn't Chabad.org correct this? I trust Chabad.org more than an unknown guy like you.

Again, read the Mosaic Magazine article that I posited to see their reasoning (which, as I mentioned earlier) was the very same as my own in the case.

As far as needing to "trust an unknown guy like me" goes, well, the good news is, you don't have to, thanks to the Mosaic Magazine article excerpt and link (to the complete article) that I posited in my first post.

It remains: The Koran has corrected the Jews.

Unless you can show us a scholarly source that agrees with you about that, that "the Koran has corrected the Jews" (be it a Muslim, Jewish and/or Christian source/sources), then it remains nothing but conjecture on your part (and we continue to be the ones who have to "trust an unknown guy like you" ). Once again, the Mosaic Magazine's article explains (in some detail) why what you believe cannot be true (so check it out, if you'd care to do so).

Lastly, do you know of any Jewish/Muslim and/or Christian articles out there that speak directly to this issue (like the Mosaic Magazine article does), and that also support your position, as well? If nothing else, you would have to think that there would be something about this from the Muslim camp (if even one of their scholars had similar thoughts to yours), but I didn't see any when I was searching a few days ago, just FYI.

Please link us to them if you find any.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Papa Smurf

If someone choked a smurf... what color would he turn?

 

[Papa Smurf]

If someone choked a smurf... w hat color would he turn?

Most humans seem to like us, so you'd better ask Gargamel, as he may be the only one who knows

​