My question is, if any SERVANTS OF GOD would remain in mortal bodies after Lord Jesus Christ appearing in the clouds and the question is addressed to those who claim that Rev. chapter 7 follows incidents described in chapter 6. Precisely speaking I am asking, I don't understand how someone can interpret the last trumpet has been blown at the time of opening the sixth seal and then only the angel with the seal appears to seal THE SERVANTS OF GOD described in chapter 7.
The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet
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My question is, if any SERVANTS OF GOD would remain in mortal bodies after Lord Jesus Christ appearing in the clouds and the question is addressed to those who claim that Rev. chapter 7 follows incidents described in chapter 6. Precisely speaking I am asking, I don't understand how someone can interpret the last trumpet has been blown at the time of opening the sixth seal and then only the angel with the seal appears to seal THE SERVANTS OF GOD described in chapter 7.
Hi Sam, God has servants with different destinies. Those who are raptured at the seventh seal are the members of Christ's body here on earth. The 144,000 servants are all national Israelites who are probably those from Zech. 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
Pre-wrath places the 7th seal some point after the middle of the 70th week and after the abomination of desolation occurs. The 144,000 and other Israelites from Zech. 12:10 and Rev. 12:6, 14-16 - "vs. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
14-16 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [sup]15 [/sup]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [sup]16 [/sup]And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."
The "woman" is believing Israel. God's final remnant of the Israelite nation. Where they go in the wilderness is recorded in Zech. 14:5 - "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."
Their destiny is to re-populate the earth after Armageddon and the 144,000 will be the "priests" of the new era. There will be gentiles allowed in as well if they pass the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.
Pre-wrath places the 7th seal some point after the middle of the 70th week and after the abomination of desolation occurs. The 144,000 and other Israelites from Zech. 12:10 and Rev. 12:6, 14-16 - "vs. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
14-16 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [sup]15 [/sup]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [sup]16 [/sup]And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."
The "woman" is believing Israel. God's final remnant of the Israelite nation. Where they go in the wilderness is recorded in Zech. 14:5 - "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."
Their destiny is to re-populate the earth after Armageddon and the 144,000 will be the "priests" of the new era. There will be gentiles allowed in as well if they pass the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Trekson.
I'm actually better off than this. I don't have to have a difference between "Christ's body here on earth" and the "144,000 national Isra'elites." To me, we are all part of the "Remnant," whether directly as children of Isra'el or indirectly as Gentile believers who've been adopted into God's family. Therefore, I find no place in Scripture that suggests let alone proves that the "church" is raptured prior to the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. In fact, in my opinion, the "tribulation" has already begun. (It started in the first century and will continue until the Lord returns.) Furthermore, I believe that half of the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27 is already over and was POSTPONED by Yeshua` when He was rejected (the overspreading of abominations that caused desolation) and He left them "DESOLATE" (Matt. 23:37-39) in the middle of the Seven, all as predicted in Dani'el 9:27.
I agree with you about the "woman" and all the rest! I also believe that you have correctly interpreted the sheep/goat judgment of Matthew 25. I see that judgment as a WAR TRIBUNAL after Har-Megiddown, which is Tel Megiddo, located at 32°35′4.64″N 35°11′0.58″E, a "look-out tower" watching over the intersection of roads below. The valley to the north and east of this hill is where the battle will be staged in that place known as Gei-Yizr`e'el, or the Valley of Jezreel. Those nations that were involved in the war will be judged (whether the U.N. thinks they should have a say or not), and some nations will be spared and allowed to be members of His Empire while some nations will be resigned to their fates at the end of the Millennium. (Notice that the passage never says that they are THROWN into the fire! Yeshua` only said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41, KJV. He just LEAVES THEM ALONE to their own destruction! That's the way that God shows His hatred: He leaves a person ALONE! He IGNORES THEM! He no longer DEALS WITH THEM, just as He no longer dealt with Esav when He said, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" - Proverbs 13:24; Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:13)
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Shalom, Sam.
Oh, yes! I quite agree! I don't see Yeshua`s coming as an instantaneous thing. I believe that it takes time to accomplish! I also see the seals-shofars-bowls as telescoping events/periods. The seven shofars are all within the seventh seal, and the seven bowls of plagues (and possibly at least the end of the story of the seven personages) are all within the seventh shofar. Like Bob said above, I believe that they will all end at the same time (namely the Second Coming), but they will PROBABLY start at different times. I say that because of the preparation that is made in both the seventh seal for the seven shofars and in the seventh shofar for the seven bowls (Rev. 8:1-5; 11:15-19; 15:1-8).
When the resurrected saints are raised to life and metamorphed in the resurrection and the living believers are metamorphed, and both are taken up into the sky (a.k.a., "raptured"), both sets are given immortal bodies. However, the ones who are still alive on the earth (and there WILL be some who survive) shall still be within their mortal bodies. I say this because there are "servants of God" and there are "servants of God." Those who have the immortal bodies will be willing "servants of God," serving Him as "kings and priests" within His Kingdom. However, there will also be mortal "servants (or slaves) of God," pressed into His service as survivors of "Har Megiddown" who submit to the rulership of the King of Isra'el, the King of kings. So, what I am saying is that we must be careful not to use "servants of God" as a LABEL as though identifying a particular group of people beyond what the phrase means - "SLAVES of God!" The phrase can refer to both groups.
I'm actually better off than this. I don't have to have a difference between "Christ's body here on earth" and the "144,000 national Isra'elites." To me, we are all part of the "Remnant," whether directly as children of Isra'el or indirectly as Gentile believers who've been adopted into God's family. Therefore, I find no place in Scripture that suggests let alone proves that the "church" is raptured prior to the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. In fact, in my opinion, the "tribulation" has already begun. (It started in the first century and will continue until the Lord returns.) Furthermore, I believe that half of the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27 is already over and was POSTPONED by Yeshua` when He was rejected (the overspreading of abominations that caused desolation) and He left them "DESOLATE" (Matt. 23:37-39) in the middle of the Seven, all as predicted in Dani'el 9:27.
I agree with you about the "woman" and all the rest! I also believe that you have correctly interpreted the sheep/goat judgment of Matthew 25. I see that judgment as a WAR TRIBUNAL after Har-Megiddown, which is Tel Megiddo, located at 32°35′4.64″N 35°11′0.58″E, a "look-out tower" watching over the intersection of roads below. The valley to the north and east of this hill is where the battle will be staged in that place known as Gei-Yizr`e'el, or the Valley of Jezreel. Those nations that were involved in the war will be judged (whether the U.N. thinks they should have a say or not), and some nations will be spared and allowed to be members of His Empire while some nations will be resigned to their fates at the end of the Millennium. (Notice that the passage never says that they are THROWN into the fire! Yeshua` only said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41, KJV. He just LEAVES THEM ALONE to their own destruction! That's the way that God shows His hatred: He leaves a person ALONE! He IGNORES THEM! He no longer DEALS WITH THEM, just as He no longer dealt with Esav when He said, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" - Proverbs 13:24; Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:13)
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Shalom, Sam.
Oh, yes! I quite agree! I don't see Yeshua`s coming as an instantaneous thing. I believe that it takes time to accomplish! I also see the seals-shofars-bowls as telescoping events/periods. The seven shofars are all within the seventh seal, and the seven bowls of plagues (and possibly at least the end of the story of the seven personages) are all within the seventh shofar. Like Bob said above, I believe that they will all end at the same time (namely the Second Coming), but they will PROBABLY start at different times. I say that because of the preparation that is made in both the seventh seal for the seven shofars and in the seventh shofar for the seven bowls (Rev. 8:1-5; 11:15-19; 15:1-8).
When the resurrected saints are raised to life and metamorphed in the resurrection and the living believers are metamorphed, and both are taken up into the sky (a.k.a., "raptured"), both sets are given immortal bodies. However, the ones who are still alive on the earth (and there WILL be some who survive) shall still be within their mortal bodies. I say this because there are "servants of God" and there are "servants of God." Those who have the immortal bodies will be willing "servants of God," serving Him as "kings and priests" within His Kingdom. However, there will also be mortal "servants (or slaves) of God," pressed into His service as survivors of "Har Megiddown" who submit to the rulership of the King of Isra'el, the King of kings. So, what I am saying is that we must be careful not to use "servants of God" as a LABEL as though identifying a particular group of people beyond what the phrase means - "SLAVES of God!" The phrase can refer to both groups.
Confusion on that undoubtedly comes from a misunderstanding between the idea of the 7 Seals vs. being sealed with God's seal.
Like I've been saying all along about the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of our Lord's Book of Revelation, they only involve the same 7 Signs He gave on the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13.
Jesus still gave a warning to the Church on earth on the 6th Vial of Rev.16:15, showing us that His second coming is not yet at that point but coming on the 7th Vial.
Ideas of the Church being raptured leaving others here on earth like the 144,000, those are all doctrines of men that confuse how to properly understand the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. Instead of God's Word as written being used as the timeline 'key' for understanding Revelation, many instead are trying to use men's doctrines as the 'key'.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Actually, I believe that finding "7 Signs" that Yeshua` gave on Har haZeitiym is just wishful thinking and a bit of delusion. First, they are not so labeled, if there really were seven signs, and secondly, I've seen where you get one of the signs, and that's not right, coming from the questions of His students before He even started His discourse! Also, I've read your denial of Yeshua` warning His students about the impending destruction of the Temple, and regardless what you think, part of the discourse IS such a warning.
So, right away I have some misgivings about your thoughts on Revelation because of your mistakes about the Olivet Discourse.
Actually, I believe that finding "7 Signs" that Yeshua` gave on Har haZeitiym is just wishful thinking and a bit of delusion. First, they are not so labeled, if there really were seven signs, and secondly, I've seen where you get one of the signs, and that's not right, coming from the questions of His students before He even started His discourse! Also, I've read your denial of Yeshua` warning His students about the impending destruction of the Temple, and regardless what you think, part of the discourse IS such a warning.
So, right away I have some misgivings about your thoughts on Revelation because of your mistakes about the Olivet Discourse.
Just because one hasn't "found" the truth yet doesn't mean it's a "doctrine" of men and not of God.
That's true, however, relying on doctrines coming out of most seminaries today is... what the majority are listening to and heeding. And that's the real point. They go to man instead of going to our Heavenly Father through His Son directly in His Word for theirselves. The fact that their doctrines have to 'add' to God's Word to seem to work is a simple proof of this. The Pre-trib school denies Scripture about our gathering to Christ after... the tribulation. The Pre-wrath school wants to deny Christ's warning for His Church on the 6th Vial still. Not one of their doctrines on the subject aligns perfectly with the Scripture as written, which should be a major clue how they are men's doctrines only.
Hi Vet, Your words:"The Pre-wrath school wants to deny Christ's warning for His Church on the 6th Vial still."
My reply: Seeing as Paul states in 1 Thess. 5:4 - "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." and again in vs. 9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ..."
there is nothing within the context of Rev. 16:15 that implies it is a warning for the church! He comes as a "thief in the night" to the unbelieving world, NOT His church. Rev. 16:1 - "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
The church, imo, will be long gone by then!
My reply: Seeing as Paul states in 1 Thess. 5:4 - "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." and again in vs. 9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ..."
there is nothing within the context of Rev. 16:15 that implies it is a warning for the church! He comes as a "thief in the night" to the unbelieving world, NOT His church. Rev. 16:1 - "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
The church, imo, will be long gone by then!
I think others can see what I mean, even with your reply, which is contrary to the written Scripture...
6th Vial Timing:
Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)
The wrath which Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 is not for us, Christ's Church, is about God's wrath on the "day of the Lord", which is that final 7th Vial timing. That's why Paul linked it with the day of "sudden destruction" upon the deceived per that chapter.
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