The law or Grace

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toknowthetruth

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I think throughout time the main issue has never been whether or not we should keep the law. I think it's always been about how we approach our relationship with God. Our motive should be to please Jesus our Saviour in whatever we do. Keeping the law does fall within that to a degree since it's basis is to have respect for God and for others. However, I see in the gospels the story of those who were motivated by selfish reasons of attaining their own righteousness and were therefore hard and legalistic. To me that's missing the point.

I think Jesus made a very telling statement when He said, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath." I think that could safely be expanded to say the law was made for man, not man for the law. In other words the law is a guidepost, not a hitching post. There are times that doing something that seems to contradict the law is the right thing to do, like healing a man on the sabbath, because the whole idea behind the law is for the betterment of man.

So to get back to the main point, I think it's pretty clear from scripture that we are saved by grace, not by the works of the law. Being saved by grace we can no longer be condemned for our mistakes past, present, or future since Jesus paid that price for us. However, if we are truly motivated to please our Saviour out of utter gratitude for the price He paid for us to be free from condemnation, we will always strive to walk in love for our Saviour, and therefore for our fellow human beings.

To me, this is what is meant by walking after the spirit (Jesus) and not after the flesh (ourselves). It doesn't mean we will never make mistakes since we are still living in a fallen world with mortal bodies subject to fleshly desires. But it does mean that over time we will be growing and maturing in our relationship with Jesus and becoming more and more like Him.

As concerning salvation, I think that's an altogether different matter. Like I said above, I think scripture points strongly to the fact that we're saved by grace. I do believe once accepted it's also pretty clear that it's a done deal that cannot be altered one way or the other regardless of what we do or don't do.
 

pom2014

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mjrhealth said:
The problem is you are missing the whole point of grace. Jesus died ONCE and for all, He is not going to keep climbing up on that cross for you. Love fulfills the law in that love chooses not to do evil, that does not make us perfect and certainly will not stop us from screwing up. Hence grace. Grace says, you have accepted the price I have paid you now choose to live by Love. I know you will mess up, thats ok its all taken care of.Now it comes down to words, If you insist on keeping the law through your own works, if you are forever worried about breaking the law, than you are under the law. There is no forgiveness when you break the law its only reward is death.If you feel guilty when you do mess up than you are being condemned by the law for it is the law that says "hey you sinned". But if you where under grace,there would be no guilt for the price is paid in full, and since the price is paid there is no condemnation,if there is no condemnation than there is no sin, if there is no sin there is no judgement,but judgement requires a law to be broken but if you are under grace guess what the only law is love.

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And that is why I do not have to worry about the law.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

In all His Love
Part of Grace is placing faith in our King.

How can we place faith in our King if we do not follow his commands, which are the Two and the Two fulfill all the law?

Rebellion WILL be rewarded with Death. Just as it is for the enemy, and so with anyone that sides with the enemy.

When you do not follow the commandments you side with the enemy. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. You are a rebel a traitor.

These people will say lord lord and he will say I knew you not.
 

Forsakenone

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If the LORD gives you free will, but the gift of free will is merely the choice whether or not to do the works of the law,
then free will is not of grace, and if not of grace then it would be a work of the law.

Thus if by the work of the law and not by the gift of grace, faith too would be a work of the law which is why so many think that it is
their faith in God that saves them and not God works through His faith in us. Thus, if the grace is without free will, then the law of faith would still be of works,
being that sin is also a transgression of the law.
 

toknowthetruth

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Forsakenone said:
If the LORD gives you free will, but the gift of free will is merely the choice whether or not to do the works of the law,
then free will is not of grace, and if not of grace then it would be a work of the law.

Thus if by the work of the law and not by the gift of grace, faith too would be a work of the law which is why so many think that it is
their faith in God that saves them and not God works through His faith in us. Thus, if the grace is without free will, then the law of faith would still be of works,
being that sin is also a transgression of the law.
Interesting thought. However, I would say that free will is a gift from God that He has given us to allow us to choose between loving Him or loving something else. The problems is we couldn't enter into a relationship with Him because of sin in our lives. That's why He gave us the gift of salvation in order that we could choose to enter into a relationship with Him by accepting His atonement for our sins. It's a choice we make, but has nothing to do with our works. It's simply a choice we make to accept or reject the gift He has provided through His Son Jesus.
 

pom2014

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I do not understand why people vehemently will eschew the commands that The King gave, but gladly take up Grace. He gave us Grace and he gave us commands.

And so I leave you with this.

Law or Grace?

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mjrhealth

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Because one grants us life the other only death.

Did He not say,,

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

In that you cannot choose both, if you choose both than life is not yours, because it says.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Or as it may seem you are sitting on the fence

Rev_3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

In all His Love
 

HammerStone

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I'm not sure that the proper perspective is the both perspective.

Paul went to great lengths in Romans to explain the difference between following the law to gain/earn justification, and our ability now to see justification come as a result of belief. There is a cutting line that runs between the two because one is ultimately based upon what you or I do to earn something. To follow the law means that we do not break the commandments given to us. The Bible is replete with records of the many miserable failures of men and women who are much more godly than any of us here.

I think this is what makes passages about Abraham so strong. Both here in Romans and then later in the chapters in Hebrews, Abraham is referred to as a sort of paragon of faith. However, if you flip back to the OT, Abraham has several moments of deep doubts when he passes his wife off as his sister, and also goes beyond the promised land to Egypt in the first place when things got tough. Further, he laughed and then we have the whole Hagar concubinage. These are all moments of failing, yet they aren't even discussed in the NT. Why? Grace.

Romans 4:1-3 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

We cannot possibly credit our accounts enough to gain entry to heaven. So, the law itself is no longer a matter of the law. Specifically, because we do not follow the law to gain anything. We follow the law out of obedience to Christ Jesus. The distinction seems almost semantical at times, but it's more than that because we first must have a heart made right in only the way that Jesus and the Holy Spirit can bring about. Then, and only then, do we follow the law. Thus, the Pharisees great sin that they created laws for the laws, because they saw the law as the end. Grace sees God as the end.
 

mjrhealth

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I have being asking the Lord how to explain this one. This is what I got.

You are going for a drive.

The law says. There are speed signs, please obey them, if you go 0.0000001 mph over the limit you will be arrested,and charged. You will be given the death penalty. Have a nice day.

Grace says. You are going for a drive, take care. If you have any issues its all taken care of, be safe.

As it says, the law is for the sinner. There are plenty of people who dont need any law to do whats right. We all know whats right and wrong, Love chooses to do good,that is why we are asked to Love. So if you need the law to do whats right, than you are a sinner and grace is not yours, because you are not walking in Love.

In all His Love
 

ATP

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mjrhealth said:
I have being asking the Lord how to explain this one. This is what I got.

You are going for a drive.

The law says. There are speed signs, please obey them, if you go 0.0000001 mph over the limit you will be arrested,and charged. You will be given the death penalty. Have a nice day.

Grace says. You are going for a drive, take care. If you have any issues its all taken care of, be safe.

As it says, the law is for the sinner. There are plenty of people who dont need any law to do whats right. We all know whats right and wrong, Love chooses to do good,that is why we are asked to Love. So if you need the law to do whats right, than you are a sinner and grace is not yours, because you are not walking in Love.

In all His Love
That's right...Rom 11:5-7 NIV So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
 

aspen

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I am not lukewarm; I am radically moderate.
 

mjrhealth

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aspen said:
I am not lukewarm; I am radically moderate.

I wouldnt know what that was.

You are either for or against, God deals in black and white, there is no grey areas,

In All His Love
 

pom2014

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mjrhealth said:
I have being asking the Lord how to explain this one. This is what I got.

You are going for a drive.

The law says. There are speed signs, please obey them, if you go 0.0000001 mph over the limit you will be arrested,and charged. You will be given the death penalty. Have a nice day.

Grace says. You are going for a drive, take care. If you have any issues its all taken care of, be safe.

As it says, the law is for the sinner. There are plenty of people who dont need any law to do whats right. We all know whats right and wrong, Love chooses to do good,that is why we are asked to Love. So if you need the law to do whats right, than you are a sinner and grace is not yours, because you are not walking in Love.

In all His Love
IF you follow the WILL of The King, OVER yours, you will obey the speed limit.

Continued adherence to YOUR WILL, is a sign of rebellion.
Of you NOT changing.
Of you Sticking with your OLD WINE.
Of refusing Grace.

God is not going to allow you to break the speed limit endlessly and still count you as one of his own.

This is the "Lord, Lord" Christian.
 

Axehead

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pom2014 said:
IF you follow the WILL of The King, OVER yours, you will obey the speed limit.

Continued adherence to YOUR WILL, is a sign of rebellion.
Of you NOT changing.
Of you Sticking with your OLD WINE.
Of refusing Grace.

God is not going to allow you to break the speed limit endlessly and still count you as one of his own.

This is the "Lord, Lord" Christian.
Actually, the Christian is not bound by man's silly laws, but on the other hand, try telling the police officer that you are "under grace".

The only law the Christian is under is the Law of Christ, but it actually carries much more responsibility with it than any law ever written by man or God (OT Law). It is because we are under grace that we can be "ambassadors for Christ" and "able ministers of the Gospel" and stay above 'reproach".

1Ti_3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
 

pom2014

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Axehead said:
Actually, the Christian is not bound by man's silly laws, but on the other hand, try telling the police officer that you are "under grace".

The only law the Christian is under is the Law of Christ, but it actually carries much more responsibility with it than any law ever written by man or God (OT Law). It is because we are under grace that we can be "ambassadors for Christ" and "able ministers of the Gospel" and stay above 'reproach".

1Ti_3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Precisely we are under the commands given to us by The King. If we are with him we will follow them without question as they are good and to our benefit.

We trust him and heed his word.

Not doing so means we are NOT with him, nor trusting him. We are still operating under our own will.

Stand with The King or be swept aside. The choice is ours.
 

mjrhealth

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IF you follow the WILL of The King, OVER yours, you will obey the speed limit.

Continued adherence to YOUR WILL, is a sign of rebellion.
Of you NOT changing.
Of you Sticking with your OLD WINE.
Of refusing Grace.

God is not going to allow you to break the speed limit endlessly and still count you as one of his own.

This is the "Lord, Lord" Christian.
You do know why there is grace.??

OIn All His Love
 

pom2014

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mjrhealth said:
You do know why there is grace.??

OIn All His Love
Yes I do. And I also know why there are commands that MUST be followed that The King gives us.

If we do not follow a sovereign's direct orders we are in rebellion. No matter how much you cling to Grace, if you disobey him you are NOT with him.

If you think for one moment you may commit sin over and over and over again and still think he will cover it without you repenting and doing it no more, then you will be the one that he says I know you not.


We must follow his commands.
 

mjrhealth

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Jesus Command is to Love, thats why He gave us grace.Grace says you are not perfect I have allowed for that. I know of no one who has ever managed to keep just one of the ten commandments except Jesus. When you stand before God and say" look i kept the ten commandments" it may be that He says, " show me How you kept them and I will show you how you broke them all." and all our Lords good work will be brought to nought.

In all His Love