The law or Grace

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heretoeternity

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Faith without works is dead...Apostle James
Paul said in Romans.."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We ESTABLISH the law...
and also in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers"
Apostle John said in 1st John "Sin is transgression of the law"...and also in 1st John...by this we know we are of God, when we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome"....
 

ATP

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heretoeternity said:
Faith without works is dead...Apostle James
Paul said in Romans.."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We ESTABLISH the law...
and also in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers"
Apostle John said in 1st John "Sin is transgression of the law"...and also in 1st John...by this we know we are of God, when we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome"....
..and falling and repenting throughout the believers life has nothing to do with losing salvation.
 

FHII

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heretoeternity said:
Faith without works is dead...Apostle James
Paul said in Romans.."do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We ESTABLISH the law...
and also in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers"
Apostle John said in 1st John "Sin is transgression of the law"...and also in 1st John...by this we know we are of God, when we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome"....
I've already addressed this post. You've already posted it almost word for word. You could at least address my response. Unless of course, you aren't interested in a discussion.
 

heretoeternity

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FHII said:
I've already addressed this post. You've already posted it almost word for word. You could at least address my response. Unless of course, you aren't interested in a discussion.
What's to discuss? You either agree with the Bible or do not agree with the Bible...you seem to have chosen the latter...
 

FHII

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heretoeternity said:
What's to discuss? You either agree with the Bible or do not agree with the Bible...you seem to have chosen the latter...
Well, what's to discuss is that I have put the verses you keep repeating in context. I actually DO believe in the Bible, but more importantly, I understand it.

So what I'm saying is your explanation is flat out wrong. Your answer? "There's nothing to discus because I'm right.... so you must be wrong if you disagree with me!"
 

heretoeternity

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Pray for understanding of the word of God, and in particular the Gospels..you obviously have not done that...the word is simple, once you get your mind and eyes opened by God. You will quit trying to distort the meaning of scripture, and quit rebelling against scripture, and you will actually start fo want to follow God's instructions, and the words of Jesus in the Gospels...give it a try, even you can do it!
 

ATP

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FHII said:
Well, what's to discuss is that I have put the verses you keep repeating in context. I actually DO believe in the Bible, but more importantly, I understand it.

So what I'm saying is your explanation is flat out wrong. Your answer? "There's nothing to discus because I'm right.... so you must be wrong if you disagree with me!"
Not much else you can do for him FHII. It's hard to break strongholds.
 

mjrhealth

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You will quit trying to distort the meaning of scripture, and quit rebelling against scripture
Thats the odd thing about the bible, one part says this teh other part says that, one person agrees with this bit , the other agrees with that, and theer is arguements over who is right. Dont have to agree with teh bible, Just God. Some people need to stop kicking the goads like Saul.
 

heretoeternity

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You should pray for understanding, and quit looking for loopholes for disobedience, which you will not find even though you think you have....take the word of God at it's word..that is called "FAITH"....quit looking for ways out of that plan to suit your basic little human objectives!
 

mjrhealth

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You should pray for understanding, and quit looking for loopholes for disobedience, which you will not find even though you think you have....take the word of God at it's word..that is called "FAITH"....quit looking for ways out of that plan to suit your basic little human objectives!
Unbelief is disobedience its everywhere here, from NON OSAS believers to law keepers. Still trying to find some who believe God, maybe its as He said,

When I return, willI find faith upon the earth.

Still havnt figurered out why christians think they can help God save them, since the work is already done.
 

ATP

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mjrhealth said:
Unbelief is disobedience its everywhere here, from NON OSAS believers to law keepers. Still trying to find some who believe God, maybe its as He said,

When I return, willI find faith upon the earth.

Still havnt figurered out why christians think they can help God save them, since the work is already done.
non-osas is a mystery, that for sure. bad seeds planted, believing saints don't persevere.
 
B

brakelite

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ATP said:
..and falling and repenting throughout the believers life has nothing to do with losing salvation.
Of course not. But if one doesn't repent? If one chooses a life of sin and worldliness after knowing and accepting the truth, and does not turn again to Christ for salvation, that man/ woman is lost. Like the pig to his wallowing and the dog to his vomit.
I am not saying however that such a situation is common, in fact I would suggest it is very rare. But God never, never removes from any man his free will. There is always the capacity to fall out of love. God will fight tooth and nail to save such a one from making such a decision. His love will draw, His Spirit whisper, His servants beg, a backslider to return to the God he once knew...as the word says, He will ever leave us or forsake us...but nowhere does it say we cannot leave or forsake Him. Even as Adam did.
 

ATP

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brakelite said:
Of course not. But if one doesn't repent?
That is what progressive sanctification is. Believers will repent. Do you believe God or your own understanding? How do you overcome the world in 1 John 5:5 NIV brake?

Rom 6:14 NIV For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:18 NIV We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

brakelite said:
Like the pig to his wallowing and the dog to his vomit.
That whole chapter is about nonbelievers brake and has nothing to do with saints.

2 Pet 2:1 NIV - The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. 2 Pet 2:1 NIV also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Pet 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:8 NIV - This verse clearly separates the righteous from the lawless, and scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit...2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV.

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 5:29 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV *, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, 2 Tim 4:8 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Pet 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.

brakelite said:
He will ever leave us or forsake us...but nowhere does it say we cannot leave or forsake Him. Even as Adam did.
Adam existed before Pentacost and the seal of God Eph 1:13-14. We cannot forsake Him because He keeps His promises to us.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
 

heretoeternity

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ATP better do as Apostle John says..check the spirit you are following...as Jesus said in Matthew "you honour me with your lips but your hearts are far from me" and in John 14 "if you love me keep my Commandments"...so to say you do not need need the actions to go with your verbal proclamations is an out and out fallacy...as Jesus said in Matthew "then I will say to you, depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness....
 

jaybird

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does anyone think pauls message "grace and only grace" may have been different than the "grace plus works" because it may have been directed to the nations and not the Jews. he was the apostle to the gentiles was he not.
just a thought
 

StanJ

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jaybird said:
does anyone think pauls message "grace and only grace" may have been different than the "grace plus works" because it may have been directed to the nations and not the Jews. he was the apostle to the gentiles was he not.
just a thought
Paul and James were dealing with two different issues. Paul was dealing with salvation and James was dealing with the Christian walk. Salvation only requires faith while the Christian walk requires that you demonstrate that faith by your good works.