The law or Grace

[mjrhealth]

So you do not keep the law of God, so it's okay for you to use the name of God in vain? To worship statues? it's okay for you to kill? to steal? etc etc...hmm interesting religion you got there...who taught you that? You should ask for your money back!
James said "faith without works is dead" and Paul said "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers" and in Romans as well he said "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"...and in Revelation 22...14 and 15...."Bessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" For outside are dogs, socerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolators and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie"...where do you want to be?

You know HTE that you are making accusations. If you want to live by the law, go right ahead, but do not lay stumbling blocks before others, you will be called to answer.

As I said, you have no interest in teh truth you just want us to agree with you, we cant that would undo all ours Lords good work just to please you and make His truth a lie.

 

[ATP]

Very true ATP...grace was introduced (and mercy too) because no-one kept God's commandments. In other words, they were sinners. My problem with the claim that grace removes the law from the equation, is that if that was the purpose of grace, it leaves the sinner a sinner. It does nothing to change human nature. It simply leaves us poor helpless sinful hopeless addicted habit-bound weak men and women as we are. If grace and law are incompatible, and God's purpose and intent in introducing grace was simply to remove the one factor that condemned us but left us as we are, then heaven will be filled with sinners. No different from hell.

Hi brake. Saints do keep the law because of progressive sanctification and the perseverance of the saints. We keep the law because God keeps His promises to us...

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Acts 2:32-33 NIV, Rom 4:13-25 NIV, Gal 3:13-14 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 3:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV.

Either you believe my testimony or not. Maybe that is your problem to work on, or maybe you shouldn't be calling God a liar...

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

So you do not keep the law of God, so it's okay for you to use the name of God in vain? To worship statues? it's okay for you to kill? to steal? etc etc...hmm interesting religion you got there...who taught you that? You should ask for your money back!
James said "faith without works is dead" and Paul said "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers" and in Romans as well he said "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"...and in Revelation 22...14 and 15...."Bessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city"

Hello hereto. Saints do keep the law because of progressive sanctification and the perseverance of the saints. We keep the law because God keeps His promises to us...

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Acts 2:32-33 NIV, Rom 4:13-25 NIV, Gal 3:13-14 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 3:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV.

Either you believe my testimony or not. Maybe that is your problem to work on, or maybe you shouldn't be calling God a liar...

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

For outside are dogs, socerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolators and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie"...where do you want to be?

Do you remember the four "were's" hereto? Let's work on that testimony...

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV / Eph 2:3 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[r4hnsn]

hi ya all, The fact that there's a negative word (Antinomian), describing those who do not believe they must keep the law, and Jesus said 'depart from me you lawless ones", is i think a strong proof that we are saved by grace (HIs power) and are then to seek His grace (power) to overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil.
But if anyone still has an dispute, then just look at the fruits of the doctrine the hold, does it lead to righteousness and life or do they
justify their sin and go on in it, rather than being delivered. Make no mistake, "the way of the transgressor is hard" and that because all sin destroys and makes life harder and harder. Of this i can attest to.

 

[heretoeternity]

AtP....your post indicates you are content to stay outside God's holy city with the dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers etc etc....it seems you are the one that needs a lot of work and prayer to understand what you are actually trying to say...when you cut and paste articles you should at least make sure you understand what you are actually entering in your posts...it is obvious you do not..try again when you actually know what you are talking about!

 

[heretoeternity]

You know HTE that you are making accusations. If you want to live by the law, go right ahead, but do not lay stumbling blocks before others, you will be called to answer.

As I said, you have no interest in teh truth you just want us to agree with you, we cant that would undo all ours Lords good work just to please you and make His truth a lie.

MJR...don't worry there will be lots of company outside God's holy city..with the dogs, socerers and evil....you want to be one of them? 1st Tim1 and in Romans 7 Paul says the law is good,holy and just...and MJR and ATP don't like it...hmmmm guess the old saying misery loves company fits pretty well here..

 

[mjrhealth]

MJR...don't worry there will be lots of company outside God's holy city..with the dogs, socerers and evil....you want to be one of them? 1st Tim1 and in Romans 7 Paul says the law is good,holy and just...and MJR and ATP don't like it...hmmmm guess the old saying misery loves company fits pretty well here..

Havnt you read,

The law is for sinners, dont you know you will not find sinners in heaven. You havnt figured it our have you. Do you know all teh laws where you live, gaurantee you dont, i certainly would be suprised if i knew more than 1% of the ones where I live, do I or most of teh people here go breaking them, no, why because we try to do whats right, law or no law, that is what love is all about. Do you know why those who are in Christ have no need of the law, because they have put on His righteousness, and since Christ is Love , Guess what they dont do evil. Without love you have nothing.

The law doesnt care if you are goo, break one you are condemned to death, if you are bad abd break one, you are condmened to death, theer is no grace for you, you can ask Christ yourself if you . How can there be grace where there is the law, there cant be.choose, I cannot comprehend why you wpuld choose death over life. Do you know what death is, complete seperation form God, I have a freind whos being there, it is not a nice place you dont want to go there.

I offer you life and death, choose life, its in teh bible. Without faith you cannot please God, it is by faith we are saved.

 

[ATP]

AtP....your post indicates you are content to stay outside God's holy city with the dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers etc etc....it seems you are the one that needs a lot of work and prayer to understand what you are actually trying to say...when you cut and paste articles you should at least make sure you understand what you are actually entering in your posts...it is obvious you do not..try again when you actually know what you are talking about!

Well, it's actually the opposite hereto. You're accusing saints of things they are not a part of. Let's work on that testimony.

1 John 4:3 NIV but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

 

[brakelite]

Brakelite,

Eph 2 says that by grace we are saved through faith (not of works). Romans 3 says in verse 20 and in 28 that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law and that no flesh shall be justified by the law.

Romans 8 is one of my favorite chapters. If you continue on from the point you stopped at you will see it say that the carnal mind (man) is at emity with God, it is not subject to the law of God and cannot be subject to the law if God. It then says they that are in the flesh cannot please God (as a result of the emity).

Chapter 7 touches more in this as it describes the spuritual vs tge carnal man.

We all know the law is good, just and perfect, but its not going to help us in terms of salvation, and God is no longer even requiring it.

If anyone wants to try to keep the law, thats fine. It will certainly help life on earth. But the minute you try to think its helping you gain favor with God or is going to help salvation (or not keeping it hurts salvation) you are no longer under grace.

Just because I believe that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of God is able to recreate me in His image and thus a lawkeeper why do you assume I am claiming my obedience is suddenly the grounds for my salvation? My obedience to the law of God is a direct result of what God has done. Nothing to do with me. That's grace.

 

[brakelite]

Hi brake. Saints do keep the law because of progressive sanctification and the perseverance of the saints. We keep the law because God keeps His promises to us...

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Acts 2:32-33 NIV, Rom 4:13-25 NIV, Gal 3:13-14 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 3:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV.

Either you believe my testimony or not. Maybe that is your problem to work on, or maybe you shouldn't be calling God a liar...

Well, first off I am not calling God a liar. I agree with you, and Him, that saints can and do keep the law. Thanks for your agreement. If however one meditates on the law and discovers one aspect that he needs to brush up on, what ought he do? Try harder to obey? No. Throw the law away and claim it has no claims on his life anymore therefore he can continue in sin? No. Draw closer to Jesus and thus draw from the deep wells of grace, mercy, love and truth, greater power, greater love, a deeper experience in God that he may obey everything in the law? YES!

 

[mjrhealth]

My obedience to the law of God is a direct result of what God has done. Nothing to do with me. That's grace.

Actually it is love, and love seeks no evil, does no evil, it is why we where created in His image, God is Love, it is why Jesus commanded up to Love. but well put. It is grace that says, oh you mucked up, all good keep going dont worry about it"

 

[FHII]

Just because I believe that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of God is able to recreate me in His image and thus a lawkeeper why do you assume I am claiming my obedience is suddenly the grounds for my salvation? My obedience to the law of God is a direct result of what God has done. Nothing to do with me. That's grace.

It wasn't personal toward you, and if you took it personal I apologize. I used the term "you" once at the very end after using terms like "we" or "us" throughout the post. So, I thought by then I had established I was talking in general.

But what you said is actually the point I was making. That point is that if you keep the law (or as we all do, parts of it) fine. I don't fault anyone and neither does God. I myself haven't murdered anyone nor have I committed adultery (I'm not speaking about Jesus's explanation in Matthew 5, just in what the letter of the law says).

The problem is when I myself or anyone tries to say that is grounds for salvation. That was the point Paul was making in Romans 2. If you keep one point of the law (as a means of salvation) you must keep it all.

Jesus made the same point in Matthew 5 as did James in chapter 1 or 2 of his epistle. Galatians 3 also notes this. And by reading your comments I believe you agree.

 

[FHII]

Repeat post. Nm

 

[ATP]

Well, first off I am not calling God a liar. I agree with you, and Him, that saints can and do keep the law. Thanks for your agreement. If however one meditates on the law and discovers one aspect that he needs to brush up on, what ought he do? Try harder to obey? No. Throw the law away and claim it has no claims on his life anymore therefore he can continue in sin? No. Draw closer to Jesus and thus draw from the deep wells of grace, mercy, love and truth, greater power, greater love, a deeper experience in God that he may obey everything in the law? YES!

So why do you believe a saint can lose his salvation if perseverance is the only option?

 

[brakelite]

Actually it is love, and love seeks no evil, does no evil, it is why we where created in His image, God is Love, it is why Jesus commanded up to Love. but well put. It is grace that says, oh you mucked up, all good keep going dont worry about it"

Not mucked up at all...elsewhere on this forum you will see where I said it is love, many, many times....and still you don't get it. Love fulfils, meets all the requirements of the law....if you love enough. You may well love someone sufficiently to not desire them dead, but do you love them sufficiently enough to not want his wife? You may claim to be loving. You mat claim to have eternal life. You may even claim to be a modern day prophet. But if you don't love everyone, completely, the law is still there to remind you...you shall not commit adultery.

 

[brakelite]

So why do you believe a saint can lose his salvation if perseverance is the only option?

If a saint perseveres in his faithfulness to God and man...that is he loves God with all his heart, soul, body and mind, and he loves his neighbor as himself, that love originating in God and empowering the person through the Spirit, then he cannot lose his salvation. For that is precisely what we are all called for. We remain firmly attached to the vine, the fruit of the Spirit being made manifest, (love being the first and foremost) then we are heaven bound. Our salvation is dependent upon our adhering to these conditions. Now it follows, that if the saint is loving everyone the way Jesus did, (seeing we are recreated in His image), we are keeping all the precepts of the law. Right? But like I said, if one item on that list of ten is being ignored, taken lightly, or even downright abused, then the love we thought we had, either for God or our neighbor, depending on what section of the ten we are transgressing, cannot be to a sufficient standard. But like you said...sanctification is a process, it is an ongoing daily exercise and we all have time to get it right.

 

[brakelite]

It wasn't personal toward you, and if you took it personal I apologize. I used the term "you" once at the very end after using terms like "we" or "us" throughout the post. So, I thought by then I had established I was talking in general.

But what you said is actually the point I was making. That point is that if you keep the law (or as we all do, parts of it) fine. I don't fault anyone and neither does God. I myself haven't murdered anyone nor have I committed adultery (I'm not speaking about Jesus's explanation in Matthew 5, just in what the letter of the law says).

The problem is when I myself or anyone tries to say that is grounds for salvation. That was the point Paul was making in Romans 2. If you keep one point of the law (as a means of salvation) you must keep it all.

Jesus made the same point in Matthew 5 as did James in chapter 1 or 2 of his epistle. Galatians 3 also notes this. And by reading your comments I believe you agree.

Yes, I agree. From another perspective however, once salvation is obtained, we are living in Christ, abiding in the vine, submitting ourselves to His Spirit that we may live holy sanctified lives, and we are reading the Bible (Exodus 20 for example) and come across a point of the law that we are not observing, what then?

 

[ATP]

If a saint perseveres in his faithfulness to God and man...that is he loves God with all his heart, soul, body and mind, and he loves his neighbor as himself, that love originating in God and empowering the person through the Spirit, then he cannot lose his salvation.

Well, there is no "if" in progressive sanctification.
Progressive is a one way ticket brake.
We fall and repent every day.
Falling has nothing to do with salvation.
How can a believer crucify Jesus all over again if He was the once and for all sacrifice for sins?

For that is precisely what we are all called for. We remain firmly attached to the vine, the fruit of the Spirit being made manifest, (love being the first and foremost) then we are heaven bound.

That's right brake. We are heaven bound because of progressive sanctification.

Our salvation is dependent upon our adhering to these conditions.

You're conditions or God's conditions?

2 Cor 10:5 KJV Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

But like you said...sanctification is a process, it is an ongoing daily exercise and we all have time to get it right.

And we will get it right, but adding loss of salvation to our sin nature is incorrect theology. Jesus has already overcome the world. You can't undo that.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well I can full well understand why it says.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

It always ends up about keeping the law. It is not the LAW that reminds us, it is the Holy Spirit,

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

And that is why SIN is the big topic in Christian forums because they dont believe Him.

 

[FHII]

Yes, I agree. From another perspective however, once salvation is obtained, we are living in Christ, abiding in the vine, submitting ourselves to His Spirit that we may live holy sanctified lives, and we are reading the Bible (Exodus 20 for example) and come across a point of the law that we are not observing, what then?

....then realize that we are no longer that which is written in exodus 20 because we are under a new and different covenant or agreement. LOOK at exodus 20 with understanding that it was a shadow of something more glorious that we can have because one man fixed it. Look at whay THAT man said, not what Moses said. Because the man who told Moses what to say spoke directly to us in the gospels.

Uts no longer about the law, its about what he did, and yes... our reaction to it.

And that's why I'm hammering on what his commandments were. It was something new. Something that would actually work. Not the ministration of death which is the 10 commandments and the rest of the law of Moses.

 

[ATP]

....then realize that we are no longer that which is written in exodus 20 because we are under a new and different covenant or agreement. LOOK at exodus 20 with understanding that it was a shadow of something more glorious that we can have because one man fixed it. Look at whay THAT man said, not what Moses said. Because the man who told Moses what to say spoke directly to us in the gospels.

Uts no longer about the law, its about what he did, and yes... our reaction to it.

And that's why I'm hammering on what his commandments were. It was something new. Something that would actually work. Not the ministration of death which is the 10 commandments and the rest of the law of Moses.

Heb 3:1-6 NIV Jesus Greater Than Moses

1Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5“Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.