The Man of Lawlessness

[Wormwood]

In 2 Thessalonians, we see a discussion on the "man of lawlessness." The NIV puts it this way...

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

I thought a difficult section of verses would make for good discussion. In my opinion, this text is not talking about a future "Antichrist" figure to emerge during the "Great Tribulation." First, I think it is important that the context of this passage is considered. Paul is seeking to encourage these Christians by understanding that they have not missed the Second Coming. In my mind, pointing out some mysterious figure that no one will really see coming until he has led the whole world astray would not really be of much comfort to these worried believers.

Moreover, the text is subjunctive in mood, which could either be present or future. Most translators make a number of interpretive decisions on these verses by supplying object and translating that this text is speaking of a future event. It is just as likely that Paul is speaking of a present evil in his day that would bring comfort to these believers that they have not missed the Second Coming. My view is that this "Man of lawlessness" is referring to Satan and how the Gospel has brought to light his previously hidden work in the world. Thus, Paul is saying that they should not worry that they have missed the Second Coming because as long as there is evil in the world, then the one behind all the evil of the world has not yet been dealt with. The end will not happen secretly (sorry Tim LaHaye), but will be a triumphant day when the people of God are delivered and the evil one is exposed once and for all and judged.

What are your thoughts on these difficult verses?

 

[Eric E Stahl]

In 2 Thessalonians, we see a discussion on the "man of lawlessness." The NIV puts it this way...

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

I thought a difficult section of verses would make for good discussion. In my opinion, this text is not talking about a future "Antichrist" figure to emerge during the "Great Tribulation." First, I think it is important that the context of this passage is considered. Paul is seeking to encourage these Christians by understanding that they have not missed the Second Coming. In my mind, pointing out some mysterious figure that no one will really see coming until he has led the whole world astray would not really be of much comfort to these worried believers.

Moreover, the text is subjunctive in mood, which could either be present or future. Most translators make a number of interpretive decisions on these verses by supplying object and translating that this text is speaking of a future event. It is just as likely that Paul is speaking of a present evil in his day that would bring comfort to these believers that they have not missed the Second Coming. My view is that this "Man of lawlessness" is referring to Satan and how the Gospel has brought to light his previously hidden work in the world. Thus, Paul is saying that they should not worry that they have missed the Second Coming because as long as there is evil in the world, then the one behind all the evil of the world has not yet been dealt with. The end will not happen secretly (sorry Tim LaHaye), but will be a triumphant day when the people of God are delivered and the evil one is exposed once and for all and judged.

What are your thoughts on these difficult verses?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

[SIZE=10pt]1[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Now, brethren, a concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ b and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] c not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of 1 Christ had come. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come d unless the falling away comes first, and e the man of 2 sin is revealed, f the son of perdition, [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]4[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] who opposes and g exalts himself h above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits 3 as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]5[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]6[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]7[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For i the 4 mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only 5 He 5 who now restrains will do so until He 5 is taken out of the way. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]8[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And then the lawless one(((666))) will be revealed, j whom the Lord will consume k with the breath of His mouth and destroy l with the brightness of His coming. [/SIZE]
(((The antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire after Armageddon and he will never return but Satan will return after 1000 years chained in the bottemless pit.)))

[SIZE=10pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] The coming of the lawless one is m according to the working of Satan, with all power, n signs, and lying wonders, [/SIZE]
(((666 will fork forSatan)))

[SIZE=10pt]10[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] and with all unrighteous deception among o those who perish, because they did not receive p the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]11[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And q for this reason God will send them strong delusion, r that they should believe the lie, [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]12[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but s had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/SIZE]

(((God will give control of the formerly Christian nations to the antichrist to judge the people who heard the truth but rejected Jesus. The antichrist will devour the whole earth with the western armies.)))

 

[clark thompson]

It is the antiChrist.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Those found worthy will be birthed in the image of Christ as the one new MAN CHILD and CAUGHT UP in the twinkling of an eye to God's throne BEFORE the devil is thrown down to earth as it shows in these verses. Those who were not ready at his coming because he could not recognize their works as one looking in a mirror(his own image) will be left behind and shall go to a place prepared by God to further feed them on the Word and physically for the 3-1/2yrs. If you read Isaiah 66:7 you will see that the MAN CHILD is the children of God a holy nation born in one day and that day comes after the 7th trump. It is not Jesus as many have taught in error, for Jesus is telling what will take place in the future to John. The Woman is heavenly Jerusalem our mother Gal.4:26. These will be those who will rule and reign with Christ(the body head) for the 1,000 yrs as kings and priests of God. The spirit of anti-Christ has always been with us from the time of the fall, for anyone who rejects the Word of truth as their Lord is ANTI-WORD/CHRIST. But Satan is thrown down from his power in heaven(kingdom of God that has corrupted it's way on this earth) and the Man child will take their place as they are caught up to God's throne(rather it means to a place or in a position of rule) to rule with Christ as their authority being the Word of God.

Rev 12:1-13
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven
crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child{SON'S OF GOD}, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.{THESE WERE NOT READY AND WERE LEFT BEHIND TO CONTINUE THEIR SPIRITUAL GROWTH.}

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
KJV

 

[Wormwood]

In my opinion, the NIV would be better translated as such:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless apostacy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He is opposing and exalting (present participles in the Greek) himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what prevails (this Greek word with no object is generally translated "to prevail" not "to hold back") so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now prevails will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I think this rendering of this text is much more in line with that which would encourage and soothe these early believers in the midst of persecution and worry that they may have missed out on Jesus return and salvation. Paul is encouraging them by telling them that people committing apostasy and the prevailing evil of the day is to be expected and is proof that they have not missed out on God's salvation in the return of Jesus. In my opinion, there is no text in the Bible that supports and "Antichrist" individual. The only time antichrist is used in the NT is 1 John and that refers to false teachers who are already active in the world.

 

[Wormwood]

Rev 12:1-13
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven
crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child{SON'S OF GOD}, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.{THESE WERE NOT READY AND WERE LEFT BEHIND TO CONTINUE THEIR SPIRITUAL GROWTH.}
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
KJV

It could also mean...

Revelation 12:1–17 (ESV)
[SIZE=12pt]1[/SIZE] And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (God's faithful people)
[SIZE=12pt]2[/SIZE] She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
[SIZE=12pt]3[/SIZE] And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.
[SIZE=12pt]4[/SIZE] His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
[SIZE=12pt]5[/SIZE] She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, (Christ)
[SIZE=12pt]6[/SIZE] and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. (God's faithful people)
[SIZE=12pt]7[/SIZE] Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
[SIZE=12pt]8[/SIZE] but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
[SIZE=12pt]9[/SIZE] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
[SIZE=12pt]10[/SIZE] And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
[SIZE=12pt]11[/SIZE] And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
[SIZE=12pt]12[/SIZE] Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
[SIZE=12pt]13[/SIZE] And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
[SIZE=12pt]14[/SIZE] But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. (God's provision for his faithful people).
[SIZE=12pt]15[/SIZE] The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. (Persecution of God's faithful people)
[SIZE=12pt]16[/SIZE] But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.
[SIZE=12pt]17[/SIZE] Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Persecution against the church and the preaching of the Gospel and making of disciples.)

This seems more in line to what would comfort and encourage persecuted churches in the first century and continue to encourage persecuted believers through every age. I don't think a letter about events that would happen for national Jews thousands of years in the future would have really been a great inspiration to the 7 churches to which this letter is addressed.

 

[veteran]

A specific pseudo-Christ coming to sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and exalt himself over ALL that even CALLED God, or that is worshipped, is EXACTLY what 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture is about.

Those who don't know that simply cannot read that Scripture for theirselves, but are instead heeding false prophets who teach against it.

2 Thess.2:3-4 is not the only Bible Scripture about that particular false messiah who is to come working great signs and miracles on earth to cause the great apostasy of many of God's people who will believe on that false one instead WAITING for Christ's coming afterwards. It's what our Lord Jesus was warning us about in Matthew 24:23-26 also, and what He also was warning the Churches in Asia Minor about and us for the end, per Revelation 13 concerning the "another beast" dragon of Rev.13:11 forward.

Those Scriptures are so simple to understand, that it is very easy to know those who say it has nothing to do with a specific coming Antichrist are lying through their teeth, or grossly deceived by men's doctrines.

 

[Wormwood]

Veteran,

You should not be so quick to hand out such judgments and labels. For one who claims the Scriptures are so simple to understand, you sure don't seem to speak as one who understands them.

Matthew 24 speaks of false prophets and false messiahs...not a Satan-filled Antichrist who unites the world governments and sets himself up in the Temple as God. Revelation 13 does not say anything about an "Antichrist." You may insert that concept into the beast, but this is not expressly taught in that passage. There are a host of scholars who have spent their entire lives serving The Lord and studying His word who disagree with you that the meaning of the beast in Rev. 13 is this Antichrist figure.

If I am decieved by "mans doctrines" then that means the church for 1800 years was decieved by such doctrines as no one held this dispensational view of yours until the 1800s.

 

[day]

In my opinion, the NIV would be better translated as such:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless apostacy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He is opposing and exalting (present participles in the Greek) himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what prevails (this Greek word with no object is generally translated "to prevail" not "to hold back") so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now prevails will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I think this rendering of this text is much more in line with that which would encourage and soothe these early believers in the midst of persecution and worry that they may have missed out on Jesus return and salvation. Paul is encouraging them by telling them that people committing apostasy and the prevailing evil of the day is to be expected and is proof that they have not missed out on God's salvation in the return of Jesus. In my opinion, there is no text in the Bible that supports and "Antichrist" individual. The only time antichrist is used in the NT is 1 John and that refers to false teachers who are already active in the world.

Are you saying that the lawless one is the full unrestrained fallen nature of man whose true evil is able to express itself after God removes the Holy Spirit? That is not an interpretation I have seen before. It certainly makes more sense to me than the 70th Week scenarios. Do you have any references to commentaries explaining this more fully? Thanks.

 

[The_highwayman]

The word anitchrist is not found anywhnere in the Book of Revelation and only mentioned 4x in the Bible. 3x In 1 John & 1x in 2 John. Anitchirst in revelation is another man made up term. ANYTHING that denies itself against Jesus CHrist is an antiChrist, in fact John gives you the definition of antichrist in 2 John 1.7

Why is this important and very relevant? because even the Devil/Satan and demons know that Jesus came in the flesh. Therefore, they are no anti christs per the definition the BIble gives in 2 John 1.7

The devil, the beast and the false prophet are the satanic trinity, which counterfiet God's own trinity. So for you oneness folks pay attention here, because the Book of Revelation, actually proves the trinity, although the word is never, ever mentioned in the Bible.

We should stop saying antichrist, when that spirit, is and has been in the present age since the fall of man.

 

[Wormwood]

Are you saying that the lawless one is the full unrestrained fallen nature of man whose true evil is able to express itself after God removes the Holy Spirit? That is not an interpretation I have seen before. It certainly makes more sense to me than the 70th Week scenarios. Do you have any references to commentaries explaining this more fully? Thanks.

Hey day,

Thanks for the response. Not exactly. The lawless one is Satan and he is at work even while the Holy Spirit is at work in the world. Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that they do not have to worry that they had missed the Second Coming, because as long as evil prevails in the world, the "man of lawlessness" has not been exposed and judged by Jesus.
I would highly recommend The College Press Commentary. Also, The Epistles to the Thessalonians: A Commentary on the Greek Text is also very good, but far more technical.

The NIV makes some very major interpretive leaps in this text. It interprets the whole text as future, when it is probably more likely to be rendered as present active. Also, it translates a phrase as "restrains him" to imply the Antichrist figure is being restrained presently from emerging on the scene, whereas the more likely translation is "prevails." Evil is currently prevailing which proves the "man of lawlessness" who is currently opposing God, has yet to be judged.

The word anitchrist is not found anywhnere in the Book of Revelation and only mentioned 4x in the Bible. 3x In 1 John & 1x in 2 John. Anitchirst in revelation is another man made up term. ANYTHING that denies itself against Jesus CHrist is an antiChrist, in fact John gives you the definition of antichrist in 2 John 1.7

Why is this important and very relevant? because even the Devil/Satan and demons know that Jesus came in the flesh. Therefore, they are no anti christs per the definition the BIble gives in 2 John 1.7

The devil, the beast and the false prophet are the satanic trinity, which counterfiet God's own trinity. So for you oneness folks pay attention here, because the Book of Revelation, actually proves the trinity, although the word is never, ever mentioned in the Bible.

We should stop saying antichrist, when that spirit, is and has been in the present age since the fall of man.

I agree.

 

[Pilgrimer]

As a New Testament historian I understand the passage to be speaking of the Jewish Revolt (the word "apostasia" is used in other 1st century Greek manuscripts for political revolts). The political party called the Zealots led the revolt against Rome that led the nation into destruction. One of the Zealot leaders, Simon bar Giora, donned the royal robes stolen from the Antonia fortress and paraded through the streets of Jerusalem up to the Temple where he set up his camp and was proclaimed by his Zealot faction with the messianic title "King of Judaea." Coins were struck to commemorate "The Redemption of Zion" during the years of the Great Revolt showing that the Zealots believed themselves to have brought about "by the sword" the messianic deliverance and kingdom of their own vain imaginations.

This was the "man of lawlessness" Paul was speaking about who would rise up, who would refuse to receive the love of the truth that they might be saved but would be so deluded they would believe a lie and be damned. But those to whom Paul wrote this letter were chosen to salvation through belief so they were to stand fast and hold onto the Gospel, even more so as they saw the day approach when these lawless men would plunge the country into a bloody and tragic war that would leave the entire nation a smoking ruin and the Holy City buried beneath 30 feet of rubble.

Sic transit gloria mundi!
(So passes away the glory of the world)
Thomas a Kempis, De Imitatione Christi

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

*First photo above is a coin dating to 69 A.D. and reads on one side "Year Three," with a harp, and on the reverse reads "Redemption of Zion."

The second coin is a Roman coin depicting the Triumph of Emperor Vespasian over the Jews with Vespasian shown mounted and the Zealot leader Simon bar Giora naked and in chains walking in front.

 

[Wormwood]

Pilgrim,

Thanks for the response. Interesting take on the passage that I have not heard before. However, this seems unlikely to me since the text seems to indicate that the revelation of this lawless one directly precedes the parousia. I think Paul has something more cosmic and more immediate in his connection with the lawless one and the Second Coming.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrim,

Thanks for the response. Interesting take on the passage that I have not heard before. However, this seems unlikely to me since the text seems to indicate that the revelation of this lawless one directly precedes the parousia. I think Paul has something more cosmic and more immediate in his connection with the lawless one and the Second Coming.

Ah, but there are two parousias of Jesus spoken of in Scripture, and not all of them are speaking of his 2nd. Indeed, most of them are speaking of events that would occur in the generation of his 1st coming, which I believe had far deeper and broader ramifications than is popularly understood.

But to the point, it wasn't Jesus' coming that Paul said would be directly preceded by the Great Revolt and false messiah, it was the Day of Christ that would not come until the revolt took place and the false messiah was revealed.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Rocky Wiley]

As a New Testament historian I understand the passage to be speaking of the Jewish Revolt (the word "apostasia" is used in other 1st century Greek manuscripts for political revolts). The political party called the Zealots led the revolt against Rome that led the nation into destruction. One of the Zealot leaders, Simon bar Giora, donned the royal robes stolen from the Antonia fortress and paraded through the streets of Jerusalem up to the Temple where he set up his camp and was proclaimed by his Zealot faction with the messianic title "King of Judaea." Coins were struck to commemorate "The Redemption of Zion" during the years of the Great Revolt showing that the Zealots believed themselves to have brought about "by the sword" the messianic deliverance and kingdom of their own vain imaginations.

This was the "man of lawlessness" Paul was speaking about who would rise up, who would refuse to receive the love of the truth that they might be saved but would be so deluded they would believe a lie and be damned. But those to whom Paul wrote this letter were chosen to salvation through belief so they were to stand fast and hold onto the Gospel, even more so as they saw the day approach when these lawless men would plunge the country into a bloody and tragic war that would leave the entire nation a smoking ruin and the Holy City buried beneath 30 feet of rubble.

Sic transit gloria mundi!
(So passes away the glory of the world)
Thomas a Kempis, De Imitatione Christi

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Hi Pilgrimer,

I have read a little of "The Wars of the Jews" and it sure seems to back up what you say!

Under His blood

 

[Wormwood]

Pilgrimer,

Yes, I agree that Jesus mixes talk of destruction of Jerusalem with his discussion on the end of the world. However, I think part of that is due to the nature of the questions the disciples were asking him in Matthew 25. I am not wholly discounting your theory (I certainly think it is far more valid than the Antichrist claims). Lets look at the first two verses a little more closely. I'd like to hear your comments on these.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

The reason I think the parousia is what Paul has in mind is because he is directly connecting "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and "the Day of The Lord." I understand that in other places the term "Day of The Lord" can be referring to God's judgments on his people, but in this case it seems to be that the phrase is being used as the the final day to which all the previous "Day of The Lord" talk points. Again, I think Paul is trying to reassure the Thessalonians that they have not missed the second coming. If the "Day of The Lord" Paul is referring to has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, why would the Thessalonians be "alarmed" that this prophecy had already come? I dont think they would be alarmed that they missed this revolt & judgment.

If your claim is simply that Paul is saying that they would not have missed the Second Coming because this revolt had not yet taken place...then I think verse 8 makes this unlikely. Jesus would destroy the lawless one by the breath of his mouth and the splendor of his coming. Again, in the context here, this "coming" is likely not judgment talk as it seems the concern of the Thessalonians is that they have missed the return of Christ. It would seem very confusing if Paul was addressing concerns the Thessalonians have regarding the literal return of Christ by speaking figuratively about this return as he speaks of judgments.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrimer,

Yes, I agree that Jesus mixes talk of destruction of Jerusalem with his discussion on the end of the world. However, I think part of that is due to the nature of the questions the disciples were asking him in Matthew 25.

I assume you mean the Mt. Olivet discourse of Matthew 24? But what exactly is the nature of the questions the disciples asked Jesus? I know the popular view is that they were asking Jesus about his 2nd Coming, but that is simply not possible.

This conversation occurred on Tuesday of Passion week, Nisan 12, two days before the Paschal meal which was the Last Supper. And if you read John’s account of that supper you will find it was at that last supper that Jesus informed his disciples that he would be ascending back to heaven, returning to the Father, but they clearly did not understand. Allow me to quote a few excerpts from that discussion:

“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you … Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake …

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas said unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way …

A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We cannot tell what he saith.

Now Jesus knew they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them … I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no parable.”

So it wasn’t until this point, when Jesus spelled it out for them that he had come forth form the Father into the world and would leave the world and return to the Father, that the disciples even understood that Jesus was going to leave the world and ascend to heaven. So how could they 2 days before have been asking about his return from heaven when at that time they didn’t even know he would be returning to heaven?

We, knowing the finished work of Christ, tend to read into their words knowledge that, at the time, they simply did not yet have, did not understand, as is made quite plain by the discussion at the Last Supper.

So the nature of their questions two days before the Last Supper simply could not have been about the 2nd Advent of Jesus thousands of years in the future. Try to see things from where they were at the time. Here they were, on a bright, sunny spring morning, two days before the Passover, sitting on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, overlooking the city and the courts of the Temple, watching the thousands of pilgrims who had come to the city for the feast, the hundreds of barefoot priests going about their duties in the Temple, the world carrying on “business as usual,” and yet, these men knew that sitting beside them was the Messiah! All their lives they had heard about all the world-shaking events that would accompany the coming of the Messiah, and here he was … yet nothing had changed! But Jesus had just told them the Temple and all its beautiful buildings would be completely destroyed!

They weren’t asking about Jesus’ 2nd coming, they didn’t even know yet that there would be a 2nd coming. They were asking when would the Temple be destroyed, and what sign would there be that Jesus, the Messiah, had come! That’s why Jesus’ answer is so intimately connected with their personal lives and what they would experience and what events they would live to see.

I am not wholly discounting your theory (I certainly think it is far more valid than the Antichrist claims). Lets look at the first two verses a little more closely. I'd like to hear your comments on these.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Are you suggesting that Jesus has not gathered to himself a people through the preaching of the Gospel?

“And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.” John 11:49-52

Jesus has been gathering men and women together into one body since the day of Pentecost 10 days after his ascension ... and that was the coming and the gathering together that Paul was speaking of, and it was on that basis that he beseeched the Thessalonian Christians to not be troubled.

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

The reason I think the parousia is what Paul has in mind is because he is directly connecting "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and "the Day of The Lord." I understand that in other places the term "Day of The Lord" can be referring to God's judgments on his people, but in this case it seems to be that the phrase is being used as the the final day to which all the previous "Day of The Lord" talk points.

It was the final day to which all the previous “Day of the Lord” talk pointed … the final day for Israel and the Old Covenant age that came to an end in the days of the 1st coming of Jesus.

Again, I think Paul is trying to reassure the Thessalonians that they have not missed the second coming. If the "Day of The Lord" Paul is referring to has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, why would the Thessalonians be "alarmed" that this prophecy had already come? I dont think they would be alarmed that they missed this revolt & judgment.

I don’t think they were alarmed that they might have missed the Day of the Lord, they were alarmed that it was at hand! Paul was reassuring them that this great and terrible day would not come until first there was a revolt and a bunch of lawless, wicked men were revealed who would be damned for rejecting the truth of the Gospel of Jesus and thinking they would, by their own power, establish a messianic kingdom that was the fruit of their own vain imagination. It did not end well for them.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ENOCH2010]

So Pilgrimer you aren't looking for Jesus to ever return ?

 

[Pilgrimer]

So Pilgrimer you aren't looking for Jesus to ever return ?

Oh, I am absolutely looking for Jesus to return! The spiritual blessings which we enjoy now are a "down payment" on the glory that we will one day enjoy in a new heaven and earth with glorified bodies that will be like Jesus' resurrected, incorruptible, immortal body.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I'm editing this to include this: I think most people tend to run to one of two extremes in their view about the Coming of Jesus. Some tend to see every mention of the Coming of Jesus as a reference to his 2nd Coming. Others tend to see every mention of the Coming of Jesus as a reference to his 1st Coming. I believe the Scriptures speak of both, with the 1st coming and the Cross of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel and the Day of Salvation being the primary focus, because after all, everything that pertains to Jesus' 2nd Coming is the fruit and fulfillment of his 1st Coming.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Well good brother.