The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[No Pre-TB]

I agree. But you are rejecting a fundamental truth in Christendom: that Jesus is "the first resurrection," "the firstborn from the dead," "the firstfruits of them that slept" and "first begotten of the dead".

That is not so. I think you misunderstand me as well. How can I be more blunt? I will then address the aforementioned truth you say I reject:
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep.

My difference in opinion is not based on Christ resurrecting first. Rather, it is recognition of him as the event in question. There lies the problem.

 

[WPM]

That is not so. I think you misunderstand me as well. How can I be more blunt? I will then address the aforementioned truth you say I reject:
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep.

My difference in opinion is not based on Christ resurrecting first. Rather, it is recognition of him as the event in question. There lies the problem.

What is the "problem"?

 

[jeffweeder]

I am not suggesting the bodily resurrection happened already and you should know this already.

Jesus said a passing from death to life has already happened for those who believe and are still in their old flesh.
What do you think Jn 5 means ewq?

We already have the hope of not coming into the judgment because Jesus has already took our judgment upon himself....and we live and reign in life because of him.

We await his glorious appearing when we will have a body like his glorious body.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not suggesting the bodily resurrection happened already and you should know this already.

Yet you claim the resurrection of the beheaded saints of Rev 20 has happened.

Jesus said a passing from death to life has already happened for those who believe and are still in their old flesh.
What do you think Jn 5 means ewq?

Salvation, something Rev 20:4 is not talking about.

Jesus said a passing from death to life is still to come in John 5. What do you think that means Jeff?

We already have the hope of not coming into the judgment because Jesus has already took our judgment upon himself....and we live and reign in life because of him.

And no hope is needed when the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens. What we have hope in now is different than what happens at the first of two resurrections in Rev 20.

We await his glorious appearing when we will have a body like his glorious body.

Which is what is described in Rev 20:4 for the beheaded saints.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus said a passing from death to life is still to come in John 5. What do you think that means Jeff?

Jesus said a passing from death to life NOW IS


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Deal with it.

And no hope is needed when the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens.

The fact that Jesus is risen gives us the blessed Hope in his second coming to raise us bodily the last day.


Tit 2
11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to reject ungodliness and worldly (immoral) desires, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives [lives with a purpose that reflect spiritual maturity] in this present age,

13 awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who [willingly] gave Himself [to be crucified] on our behalf to redeem us and purchase our freedom from all wickedness, and to purify for Himself a chosen and very special people to be His own possession, who are enthusiastic for doing what is good.


Jn 5

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Bodies are in tombs, the spiritually resurrected are seated already in the heavenly realm awaiting Jesus to come and receive them into the glory that flesh and blood cannot inherit.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus said a passing from death to life NOW IS


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Deal with it.



The fact that Jesus is risen gives us the blessed Hope in his second coming to raise us bodily the last day.


Tit 2
11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to reject ungodliness and worldly (immoral) desires, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives [lives with a purpose that reflect spiritual maturity] in this present age,

13 awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who [willingly] gave Himself [to be crucified] on our behalf to redeem us and purchase our freedom from all wickedness, and to purify for Himself a chosen and very special people to be His own possession, who are enthusiastic for doing what is good.


Jn 5

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Bodies are in tombs, the spiritually resurrected are seated already in the heavenly realm awaiting Jesus to come and receive them into the glory that flesh and blood cannot inherit.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus said a passing from death to life NOW IS

I know. But why do you ignore the other part??

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Obviously the hour that was coming is the physical resurrection from the dead (Rev 20:4 and other passages) while the NOW IS is the spiritual! Never confuse the spiritual with the physical!

 

[ewq1938]

Deal with it.

No, you deal with it:

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[jeffweeder]

I know. But why do you ignore the other part??

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Obviously the hour that was coming is the physical resurrection from the dead (Rev 20:4 and other passages) while the NOW IS is the spiritual! Never confuse the spiritual with the physical!

I have quoted and tried to explain both parts.
One "now is" where we are free from the judgment to come....
Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
This is the first resurrection (transferrence from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important one we will get aquainted with. Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.




...and the other is bodily from the tomb along with the rest of humanity who never partook of the blessing of the spiritual first resurrection.

Jn 26-
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


This above occurs the last hour of the last day.



The very word he has already spoke will judge them when he comes the last day to raise all bodily from the tomb.

Jn 12
47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world.
48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day. 49 For I have never spoken on My own initiative or authority, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment regarding what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life.

Jn 6
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is My Father’s will and purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him [as Savior] will have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.”

 

[Timtofly]

The resurrection of the dead in Christ has not yet happened, is not happening and did not happen in the past. It is a future event at the second coming.

Teaching otherwise violates this scripture:

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

It is not past, as in finite. It is ongoing and forever.

Preterist are the ones who claim a finite end in the first century.

Paul claims 3 gatherings of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That flesh is not resurrected, it returned to dust. At the Cross all the OT were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to enjoy physical Paradise.

Those alive on earth at the Second Coming will physically join them leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh on earth.

Then 1,000 years later, those alive on earth will be presented to God, when Jesus hands back creation to God.

The resurrection has to happen when the soul leaves this dead flesh, for God's permanent physical body.

 

[WPM]

No, you deal with it:

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

That is talking about physical resurrection. Hello!

 

[ewq1938]

I have quoted and tried to explain both parts.
One "now is" where we are free from the judgment to come....

No one is free from being judged. All the saved will be judged and will receive an immortal body, while the unsaved will receive a mortal body and be judged at a later time.

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


This above occurs the last hour of the last day.

The last resurrection group will happen then, but the first resurrection group happens over a thousand years earlier. Jesus did not reveal that until showing it to John in the revelation vision. That's why leaving out even one part of something can completely throw something off. The info Rev supplies is extremely important but Amill always leaves it out and has an incomplete view of something like the two resurrections of the dead happening on different days.

 

[jeffweeder]

 

[ewq1938]

51. Does Amillennialism change what the bottomless pit is?


Yes! I have seen many Amillennialists claim the bottomless pit is actually the Earth. This is how they "explain" how satan can be imprisoned in pit but be free to roam the entire Earth. This means Jesus and the prophets all lived inside the bottomless pit and so do you and I!


Revelation 20 clearly shows that the pit is located near (or possibly in) the Earth not that the entire Earth is a pit, which is quite nonsensical. This also completely erases the angel coming down to the Earth with a chain and key and throwing satan into the pit proving satan was on Earth BEFORE being cast into pit. Earth therefore cannot be pit.


This is yet another example of Amillennialism butchering the Holy text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

51. Does Amillennialism change what the bottomless pit is?


Yes! I have seen many Amillennialists claim the bottomless pit is actually the Earth. This is how they "explain" how satan can be imprisoned in pit but be free to roam the entire Earth. This means Jesus and the prophets all lived inside the bottomless pit and so do you and I!

Where have you seen any Amil claim that the bottomless pit is actually the entire earth? Have you seen anyone do that here? If so, do you have a link to where they said this?

Revelation 20 clearly shows that the pit is located near (or possibly in) the Earth not that the entire Earth is a pit, which is quite nonsensical.

Where exactly does Revelation 20 clearly show that the bottomless pit is located near (or possibly in) the Earth? Also, please explain how a spirit being like Satan can be literally chained up and bound in a physical place.

This also completely erases the angel coming down to the Earth with a chain and key and throwing satan into the pit proving satan was on Earth BEFORE being cast into pit. Earth therefore cannot be pit.


This is yet another example of Amillennialism butchering the Holy text.

You need to back up your claim that "many Amillennialists" believe this or else I will assume you are just making that up. I don't believe that is true.

 

[ewq1938]

52. Does the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 take place "at the second coming"?

Sometimes Amillennialism teaches that the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 takes place "at the second coming" but that is wrong. According to the bible, the second coming is mainly found in Revelation 19, with Christ descending from heaven to fight and destroy the army of the beast at Armageddon.

Even in Amillennialism the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not take place "at the second coming":

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Amillennialism's second coming).
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(unknown amount of time)

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is when the final resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 will take place, just prior to the actual throne judgment. The second coming is completed by the time of this passage.

As you can see, the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not occur at Amillennialism's second coming. There is an unknown amount of time between verse 9 and verses 12 and 13. Either way, this final resurrection is after the second coming in both Premillennialism and Amillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

52. Does the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 take place "at the second coming"?

Sometimes Amillennialism teaches that the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 takes place "at the second coming" but that is wrong. According to the bible, the second coming is mainly found in Revelation 19, with Christ descending from heaven to fight and destroy the army of the beast at Armageddon.

Even in Amillennialism the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not take place "at the second coming":

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Amillennialism's second coming).
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(unknown amount of time)

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is when the final resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 will take place, just prior to the actual throne judgment. The second coming is completed by the time of this passage.

As you can see, the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not occur at Amillennialism's second coming. There is an unknown amount of time between verse 9 and verses 12 and 13. Either way, this final resurrection is after the second coming in both Premillennialism and Amillennialism.

Are you referring to the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" here? You didn't specify. The first resurrection is also referenced in that verse. Assuming you're talking about the resurrection of the rest of the dead, yes, we all agree that it happens after the thousand years and happens at the time that Revelation 20:11-15 occurs.

But, when you read Matthew 25:31-46, you should see that Revelation 20:15, which is the same thing described in Matthew 25:41, will occur when Christ comes again with His angels and not 1,000+ years later.

 

[ewq1938]

53. What does Revelation 20:4-6 mean?

Related to number 4.

Some Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:6 this way:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [unknown length of time].

That is not what the actual verses present.




How can unsaved people be killed for the testimony of Christ and after physical death, they experience a spiritual resurrection. That's opposite of what the chapter says and opposite of the order of events. One must first be born again to be able to have the testimony of Christ and then be killed for it. The spiritual rebirth happens before dying physically for Christ!

This is the true meaning of the verses:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; [these were born again Christians before they were killed, being the main reason they will be killed] and they lived [when a dead person becomes Zao/alive a physical resurrection took place] and reigned with Christ a thousand years [a literal and set amount of years].
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again [these are those who did not live again when the beheaded saints did] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [described in more detail in the next verse]
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection [the first bodily resurrection of some of the dead, the second resurrection happens after the thousand years for the rest of the dead]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [this reign can only happen after the resurrection of the dead in Christ which happens only at the second coming]

 

[Keraz]

53. What does Revelation 20:4-6 mean?

Related to number 4.

Some Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:6 this way:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [unknown length of time].

That is not what the actual verses present.




How can unsaved people be killed for the testimony of Christ and after physical death, they experience a spiritual resurrection. That's opposite of what the chapter says and opposite of the order of events. One must first be born again to be able to have the testimony of Christ and then be killed for it. The spiritual rebirth happens before dying physically for Christ!

This is the true meaning of the verses:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; [these were born again Christians before they were killed, being the main reason they will be killed] and they lived [when a dead person becomes Zao/alive a physical resurrection took place] and reigned with Christ a thousand years [a literal and set amount of years].
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again [these are those who did not live again when the beheaded saints did] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [described in more detail in the next verse]
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection [the first bodily resurrection of some of the dead, the second resurrection happens after the thousand years for the rest of the dead]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [this reign can only happen after the resurrection of the dead in Christ which happens only at the second coming]

Good post, ewq.
My only comment is your interpretation of verse 6;
1/ Those resurrected ARE born again Christians and they are also those killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast.
2/ Saying 'some of the dead', then: 'the dead in Christ', shows your bias toward more people being resurrected when Jesus Returns, but Rev 20:4 is unequivocal that ONLY the GT martyrs will be.

 

[ewq1938]

Good post, ewq.
My only comment is your interpretation of verse 6;
1/ Those resurrected ARE born again Christians and they are also those killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast.
2/ Saying 'some of the dead', then: 'the dead in Christ', shows your bias toward more people being resurrected when Jesus Returns, but Rev 20:4 is unequivocal that ONLY the GT martyrs will be.

Rev 20:4 does focus upon a certain people who resurrect but that doesn't mean they are the only ones to resurrect at that time. Other scripture refers to more who also resurrect:

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light one one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.