The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Timtofly]

Good post, ewq.
My only comment is your interpretation of verse 6;
1/ Those resurrected ARE born again Christians and they are also those killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast.
2/ Saying 'some of the dead', then: 'the dead in Christ', shows your bias toward more people being resurrected when Jesus Returns, but Rev 20:4 is unequivocal that ONLY the GT martyrs will be.

I agree that it is not a general resurrection.

It is a physical resurrection given to those beheaded in the prior 42 months. They stand in judgment and are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

 

[WPM]

52. Does the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 take place "at the second coming"?

Sometimes Amillennialism teaches that the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 takes place "at the second coming" but that is wrong. According to the bible, the second coming is mainly found in Revelation 19, with Christ descending from heaven to fight and destroy the army of the beast at Armageddon.

Even in Amillennialism the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not take place "at the second coming":

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Amillennialism's second coming).
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(unknown amount of time)

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is when the final resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 will take place, just prior to the actual throne judgment. The second coming is completed by the time of this passage.

As you can see, the resurrection of Revelation 20:5 does not occur at Amillennialism's second coming. There is an unknown amount of time between verse 9 and verses 12 and 13. Either way, this final resurrection is after the second coming in both Premillennialism and Amillennialism.

Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent period. Revelation 19 is the second coming. It is also the end of the world. The fact is: there are no wicked left to rule over. All flesh is destroyed in Revelation 19 (as in every other OT and NT second coming passage). Revelation 20 takes us back to Christ's victory over sin and death at the first resurrection and depicts the enlightenment of the Gentiles. It finishes with the general resurrection/judgment.

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent period. Revelation 19 is the second coming. It is also the end of the world. The fact is: there are no wicked left to rule over. All flesh is destroyed in Revelation 19 (as in every other OT and NT second coming passage). Revelation 20 takes us back to Christ's victory over sin and death at the first resurrection and depicts the enlightenment of the Gentiles. It finishes with the general resurrection/judgment.

All flesh is destroyed in Rev ch20

 

[Keraz]

Rev 20:4 does focus upon a certain people who resurrect but that doesn't mean they are the only ones to resurrect at that time. Other scripture refers to more who also resurrect:

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.

You now exhibit your extreme bias and willingness to make scripture mean what you want it to.
Revelation 20:5, is absolute clarification of who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, as it says: The rest of the dead do NOT come to life again until the thousand years is over.
ONLY those martyrs, those killed for their faith in Christ will be raised back to mortal life then.

I suggest that you and the many who believe in a general Christian resurrection at the Return, do some serious rethinking.

 

[ewq1938]

You now exhibit your extreme bias and willingness to make scripture mean what you want it to.

I'll quote the bible to prove you wrong: "the dead in Christ rise first"

 

[David in NJ]

You now exhibit your extreme bias and willingness to make scripture mean what you want it to.
Revelation 20:5, is absolute clarification of who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, as it says: The rest of the dead do NOT come to life again until the thousand years is over.
ONLY those martyrs, those killed for their faith in Christ will be raised back to mortal life then.

I suggest that you and the many who believe in a general Christian resurrection at the Return, do some serious rethinking.

the Holy Spirit wants you to take NOTICE

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren
concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you(Keraz) by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. (Hello Keraz)
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[David in NJ]

You now exhibit your extreme bias and willingness to make scripture mean what you want it to.
Revelation 20:5, is absolute clarification of who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, as it says: The rest of the dead do NOT come to life again until the thousand years is over.
ONLY those martyrs, those killed for their faith in Christ will be raised back to mortal life then.

I suggest that you and the many who believe in a general Christian resurrection at the Return, do some serious rethinking.

Dear Keraz,

Time to put on our Scripture Thinking Cap = "the Mind of Christ"

the LORD Jesus Christ gave us absolute clarification of who will be resurrected when HE Returns.

HE told us beginning in the Prophets = Daniel 12:1-3

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[WPM]

All flesh is destroyed in Rev ch20

Where? At the end. Where do all the mortal sinners come who grow to billions by the end of the millennium? Revelation is the final recap of 7. Rev 19 is the 6th of 7. They all describe the intra-Advent period.

 

[David in NJ]

Where? At the end. Where do all the mortal sinners come who grow to billions by the end of the millennium? Revelation is the final recap of 7. Rev 19 is the 6th of 7. They all describe the intra-Advent period.

Which 'end' ?

The Scripture speaks of more then one 'end'.

 

[Keraz]

I'll quote the bible to prove you wrong: "the dead in Christ rise first"

The tiny word 'all' is not there.
ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised, as Rev 20:4 clearly states.

Thinking that all the dead Christians will rise when Jesus Returns, is illogical and unscriptural. It's just another false teaching.

 

[ewq1938]

The tiny word 'all' is not there.

Nor is the GIANT word "some". In English grammar it is implied that "all" is intended. A limiter would have to be used, which isn't.

ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised, as Rev 20:4 clearly states.

Other scripture tells us others will be raised, the dead in Christ ie: the saved dead.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Thinking that all the dead Christians will rise when Jesus Returns, is illogical and unscriptural. It's just another false teaching.

No, it is true teaching. Teaching otherwise is false teaching as I have proven.

 

[David in NJ]

The tiny word 'all' is not there.
ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised, as Rev 20:4 clearly states.

Thinking that all the dead Christians will rise when Jesus Returns, is illogical and unscriptural. It's just another false teaching.

Why do you choose not to believe the very words of the Lord Jesus on this?

Did HE not give to us Revelation and the entire Scriptures?

Seek and you will find, ask and it shall be given, knock and it will be opened to you.

The Final Say is in Revelation in what the LORD says to the seven churches......

 

[WPM]

Which 'end' ?

The Scripture speaks of more then one 'end'.

There is only one end of the world. The consummation of the age is the end of the world. It is the last day! It is the end of time and the beginning of eternity. It is the end of sin and the beginning of the eternal state. It is the end of corruption and the beginning of perfection. It is the end of the curse and the beginning of glorification.

While Premils have no difficulty comprehending the meaning of the phrase “the beginning” (archē) because it does not cut across their theology, they seem to get brain freeze when it comes to the meaning of the phrase “the end” (telos), because it cuts across their theology. The end is not the end in their theology but rather a bump along the road on the way to “the end.” In doing this, Premils totally negate the very meaning of biblical phrase “the end.”

Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

 

[Keraz]

Why do you choose not to believe the very words of the Lord Jesus on this?

But I do!
Revelation 20:4-5 is plain; ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT, will be raised at the Return, The rest must wait until the thousand years has ended. End of story.

 

[David in NJ]

There is only one end of the world. The consummation of the age is the end of the world. It is the last day! It is the end of time and the beginning of eternity. It is the end of sin and the beginning of the eternal state. It is the end of corruption and the beginning of perfection. It is the end of the curse and the beginning of glorification.

While Premils have no difficulty comprehending the meaning of the phrase “the beginning” (archē) because it does not cut across their theology, they seem to get brain freeze when it comes to the meaning of the phrase “the end” (telos), because it cuts across their theology. The end is not the end in their theology but rather a bump along the road on the way to “the end.” In doing this, Premils totally negate the very meaning of biblical phrase “the end.”

Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Have you ever considered the Two-fold Prophecies that speak of His Two Comings and the Two 'Ends'.

End #1 = "the end of this age" = not the destruction of earth

End #2 = "the end of satan/ the flesh/the earth is destroyed and New Heavens and Earth Created

 

[David in NJ]

But I do!
Revelation 20:4-5 is plain; ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT, will be raised at the Return, The rest must wait until the thousand years has ended. End of story.

my Brother Keraz,

Can we focus, together, on the Love of Christ by which we have been saved and rejoice in the 'Simplicity that is in Christ'.

Can we, together, take the road to discovery in a childlike manner that pleases our Lord, whereby we seek to agree with what He says.
i believe, in so doing, that the Holy Spirit will be our Guide = where there is no partiality.

 

[WPM]

Have you ever considered the Two-fold Prophecies that speak of His Two Comings and the Two 'Ends'.

End #1 = "the end of this age" = not the destruction of earth

End #2 = "the end of satan/ the flesh/the earth is destroyed and New Heavens and Earth Created

I used to believe that. I learned it was untenable. That is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the heavens pass away / perish with a great noise?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the elements be ‘loosed by being set on fire’?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the works that are within the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?

 

[David in NJ]

I used to believe that. I learned it was untenable. That is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the heavens pass away / perish with a great noise?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the elements be ‘loosed by being set on fire’?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?
Q. When Christ Comes as a thief in the night, will the works that are within the earth be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly?

The Lord is using the same Two-Fold Prophecy as the Holy Spirit did in the OT Prophets.

What do you make of this: Zechariah 14:16-19

Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Who are these survivors and from what catastrophe did they survive???

 

[ewq1938]

But I do!
Revelation 20:4-5 is plain; ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT, will be raised at the Return

If you are going to be hyper literal you can't say the martyrs of the GT will be raised as the verse only speaks of those that are beheaded. Will beheadings be the only way of killing? I doubt it.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

The Lord is using the same Two-Fold Prophecy as the Holy Spirit did in the OT Prophets.

What do you make of this: Zechariah 14:16-19

Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Who are these survivors and from what catastrophe did they survive???

Not so. Premils cannot take Scripture literal. They have to spiritualize it away in order to let Premil fit. They also have to invent a future age unknown to the sacred text in-between "this age" and "the age to come." They build their theology on 1 chapter in the most symbolic setting in Scripture and force a hyper-literal meaning upon the symbolism. This is horrible hermeneutics. What is more, they are always explaining the way the fuller revelation (the NT) by the vaguer revelation – the OT. They cannot abide the light of Christ and the NT prophets to explained the more obscure view of the OT prophets. This is exactly what you did above.

Your MO is to duck around every single Scripture that forbids your Premil claims. You have plainly no answer to the Book. Your silence is deafening in every discussion.