The Mark of the Beast (what it really is explained)

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Renniks

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If we wait for things to get better, that is not going to happen either. Every generation life gets easier technology wise, but no one has figured out how to raise the living conditions of the poor, and equalize life for all. That is never going to happen, and never in any fantasy utopia. The underlying fact is evil will always be the result, no matter how good things get.
Escapest theology doesn't help, though. We are to be light in the current age, not looking to escape.
A lot is starting to make sense to me about partial preterism.

"Eusebius wrote about these dreadful events. He wrote around AD325, amazingly close to those events, and with the extensive records of Josephus to draw upon:

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."

Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.

2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in my name.

3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison, to use his own words.

6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up as in a prison, they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God. (Church History, Book III, Chapter V).

"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella." (Book III, Ch. 5).

Augustine, bishop of Hippo (354-430), probably the first major theologian of the Church, also had no doubt that the events of AD66-73, but especially AD70, were truly momentous from a Christian understanding of Scripture point of view, tieing in those horrible events with such Scriptures as Luke 21. The truth is that all of the leaders of the early catholic church ('catholic' obviously not referring to the Roman Catholic Church which would not arrive for many hundreds of years, but the heresy-free New Testament Church which Jesus founded), thought that the events of AD70 were prophetically momentous.
 

Renniks

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As a child, innocence is lost or taken away by the world as it conforms you to it's ways. I've only observed that process accelerate over the course of my lifetime. A good and loving God can't suspend judgment indefinitely in the face of corruption.
See, this is what I'm speaking of. So many seem to think we are in the most evil days ever. It just isn't so. Study the middle ages a bit or the persecution of the early church. In comparison, the gospel is spreading today, people are not more evil than ever before. There's much good news. It's just that we tend to hear only the bad. Our current situation is an opportunity for God to reach more people. Corruption today is no worse than it's been many times in history. And Christianity is perhaps waning in the US but growing in Africa and South America and the middle East. Perhaps this pandemic will spark more revival.
 

quietthinker

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Nobody can give their allegiance to Satan unknowingly. Now that is not to say that someone cant unknowingly be fighting against Christ, the truth and His people. For Christ Himself said in Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

So if you aren't knowingly gathering with Christ you are either knowingly or unknowingly fighting against Him.
Could it be that many who consider themselves gathers and actually scatterers?
 

michaelvpardo

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See, this is what I'm speaking of. So many seem to think we are in the most evil days ever. It just isn't so. Study the middle ages a bit or the persecution of the early church. In comparison, the gospel is spreading today, people are not more evil than ever before. There's much good news. It's just that we tend to hear only the bad. Our current situation is an opportunity for God to reach more people. Corruption today is no worse than it's been many times in history. And Christianity is perhaps waning in the US but growing in Africa and South America and the middle East. Perhaps this pandemic will spark more revival.
yup, the middle ages are part of the last days. As I said, the last days started with the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However there were no weapons in the middle ages capable of destroying all life on Earth (though I'm sure there would've been if they had the technology). There were plagues in the middle ages, but there were no worldwide pandemics. There was no worldwide travel. Now, there may have been people trying to establish worldwide governments, but none of them had access to or were even aware of the extent of the world's population. Never before has it been possible to preach the gospel on a worldwide level. Radio and television broadened the reach of evangelicals as did air travel, but never before has the whole world been within reach and never before has digital communications been so widely dispersed throughout the Earth.
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. " Matthew 24:14
Absolutely nothing in scripture says that the gospel will be accepted and believed broadly, but just the opposite in the "kingdom of the beast."
 

farouk

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There is something in people that makes them want to believe they are the terminal generation. It's an odd phenomenon I've observed all my life. We are fascinated with our own demise, with coming disaster, and in some cases, it seems we actually want all the " bad people" to be destroyed while we watch smugly from afar. What we should desire IMO, is restoration. We should desire that all come to know our joy, come to know our Savior, our hope.
In WW2, lots of ppl tried to claim that Mussolini's regime was the revived Roman Empire; then when they hanged him and his lady friend from a lamp post in Italy, they didn't come back and say, Hey we were wrong. By then some of them had gotten to the fact that the State of Israel had been established and, Guess what? it's all just about to happen, folks! (Well, maybe if not this year, then next.... or the year after.... :rolleyes:)

Like you strongly imply, @Renniks , it's the Gospel that is the rule of the believer's life, while the Lord sovereignly pursues His ultimate purposes among the nations and Israel.
 
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Renniks

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There were plagues in the middle ages, but there were no worldwide pandemics
Bad Comparison I'd say. Our pandemic is killing what? 1 percent? Less when you figure all the people who have it with no symptoms. Black death killed 30 to 60% of the population of Europe... 50 million people.. hard to even imagine.

The justonian plague around 541 A.D., was claiming up to 10,000 lives per day...

The most recent, the so-called “Third Pandemic,” erupted in 1855 in the Chinese province of Yunnan. The disease traversed the globe over the next several decades, and by the beginning of the 20th century, infected rats traveling on steamships had carried it to all six inhabited continents. The worldwide outbreak would eventually claim some 15 million lives before petering out in the 1950s.

So yeah we had worldwide pandemics before.
 

Timtofly

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Escapest theology doesn't help, though. We are to be light in the current age, not looking to escape.
A lot is starting to make sense to me about partial preterism.

"Eusebius wrote about these dreadful events. He wrote around AD325, amazingly close to those events, and with the extensive records of Josephus to draw upon:

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."

Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.

2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in my name.

3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison, to use his own words.

6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up as in a prison, they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God. (Church History, Book III, Chapter V).

"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella." (Book III, Ch. 5).

Augustine, bishop of Hippo (354-430), probably the first major theologian of the Church, also had no doubt that the events of AD66-73, but especially AD70, were truly momentous from a Christian understanding of Scripture point of view, tieing in those horrible events with such Scriptures as Luke 21. The truth is that all of the leaders of the early catholic church ('catholic' obviously not referring to the Roman Catholic Church which would not arrive for many hundreds of years, but the heresy-free New Testament Church which Jesus founded), thought that the events of AD70 were prophetically momentous.
The problem with this is, I have read Josephus. Titus never entered the Temple. He wanted to and use it to set up his own temple for his glorification. He could not because it was set on fire, and burned to the ground. He tried to put the fire out, but so many men on both sides kept killing each other, that no one stopped to put the fire out. Titus could not salvage any of the building to use for his own personal gain.

That it was a fulfillment of Daniel 9 is impossible. The early church fathers should have known this. I wonder if they even read Josephus? Perhaps the account was sanitized later, but why would it make Titus look bad. If it was sanitized it wasn't done to make Titus look better. If it was to make him look worse, they should have left it alone.
 

michaelvpardo

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Bad Comparison I'd say. Our pandemic is killing what? 1 percent? Less when you figure all the people who have it with no symptoms. Black death killed 30 to 60% of the population of Europe... 50 million people.. hard to even imagine.

The justonian plague around 541 A.D., was claiming up to 10,000 lives per day...

The most recent, the so-called “Third Pandemic,” erupted in 1855 in the Chinese province of Yunnan. The disease traversed the globe over the next several decades, and by the beginning of the 20th century, infected rats traveling on steamships had carried it to all six inhabited continents. The worldwide outbreak would eventually claim some 15 million lives before petering out in the 1950s.

So yeah we had worldwide pandemics before.
so the middle ages extended to 1855? I'm curious, do you believe that there was effective treatment for viral infections in 541 AD. Treatments like bloodletting only increased rates of infection. There were no such things as antivirals, antibiotics, or artificial life support. I think that you may have missed the points I was trying to make, but you may be simply ignoring them to validate your disbelief. That's okay, your opinions don't alter reality and you have freewill to believe what scripture says or not. My view of the world is definitely informed by scripture and the argument that nothing has changed and all things remain as they were is at least as old as the scriptures themselves. (If you read them a few times carefully, you'll find that yourself.)
 

Joseph77

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=================================
QUOTE="Renniks, post: 735203, member: 8518"]Bad Comparison I'd say. Our pandemic is killing what? 1 percent? Less when you figure all the people who have it with no symptoms. Black death killed 30 to 60% of the population of Europe... 50 million people.. hard to even imagine.

The justonian plague around 541 A.D., was claiming up to 10,000 lives per day...

The most recent, the so-called “Third Pandemic,” erupted in 1855 in the Chinese province of Yunnan. The disease traversed the globe over the next several decades, and by the beginning of the 20th century, infected rats traveling on steamships had carried it to all six inhabited continents. The worldwide outbreak would eventually claim some 15 million lives before petering out in the 1950s.

So yeah we had worldwide pandemics before.[/QUOTE
=======================================
Not just that, what is more important, and everyone doesn't even look for,
is
who were the groups who were unaffected ? Or mostly so, in any of the so-called pandemics/ epidemics/ plagues ?
Start with the earliest known plagues/ or Egypt's plagues, and see if anything changed in thousands of years......
 
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michaelvpardo

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In the way of an addendum to my last post:
"knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3:3-4
I recommend reading the entire chapter for context and I'm not suggesting that being a scoffer identifies a person as "walking according to their own lusts." However, the passage is scripture, inspired by God, and addresses both disbelief and Christian behavior in light of the coming judgment. I doubt anyone believes that the heavens have already passed away, the elements melted, or the Earth and the works in it have burned up. But I am convinced that most people would prefer that the day of the Lord remains some distant event in the future well beyond the concerns of ourselves and our families. Yet, it remains an appointed day.
 

Joseph77

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But I am convinced that most people would prefer that the day of the Lord remains some distant event in the future well beyond the concerns of ourselves and our families.
Well, this is basically what Scripture says.

Most people are scared to death at Jesus' Return, and rightly so - they are trying to hide or deny His Return Soon, every day.
They don't have their sins forgiven, and refuse to stop serving the enemy. (as written in Revelation, Galatians, Ephesians, et al - all in perfect harmony with all God's Word) ... So for them, as for the fallen angels, only judgment awaits - and even is building up daily as the sins and wickednesses build up.
 

michaelvpardo

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Well, this is basically what Scripture says.

Most people are scared to death at Jesus' Return, and rightly so - they are trying to hide or deny His Return Soon, every day.
They don't have their sins forgiven, and refuse to stop serving the enemy. (as written in Revelation, Galatians, Ephesians, et al - all in perfect harmony with all God's Word) ... So for them, as for the fallen angels, only judgment awaits - and even is building up daily as the sins and wickednesses build up.
I'd like to believe that professing Christians, arguing doctrine on a Christian web site and claiming to believe the scriptures would actually have the hope of glory in them. That they would be looking for Christ's return, as in the celebration of His cup. That they would be looking for the signs of His coming and not greet Him as a thief in the night. I must really be getting old.
 

quietthinker

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Well, this is basically what Scripture says.

Most people are scared to death at Jesus' Return, and rightly so - they are trying to hide or deny His Return Soon, every day.
They don't have their sins forgiven, and refuse to stop serving the enemy. (as written in Revelation, Galatians, Ephesians, et al - all in perfect harmony with all God's Word) ... So for them, as for the fallen angels, only judgment awaits - and even is building up daily as the sins and wickednesses build up.
Christianity has become a scene as in a club of sorts...its got its own language, its own practices and its own no talk rule when it comes to addressing popular sins....these folk are identified as tares or foolish virgins or verdant trees without fruit...they look good to men but don't measure up in heart or behaviour.....they have justified fears for putting Jesus' return into the future.....they do not watch and are not ready as Jesus instructed those who take on his name to be.....they will be caught with their pants down unless there is a serious shift.
 

Renniks

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In the way of an addendum to my last post:
"knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3:3-4
I recommend reading the entire chapter for context and I'm not suggesting that being a scoffer identifies a person as "walking according to their own lusts." However, the passage is scripture, inspired by God, and addresses both disbelief and Christian behavior in light of the coming judgment. I doubt anyone believes that the heavens have already passed away, the elements melted, or the Earth and the works in it have burned up. But I am convinced that most people would prefer that the day of the Lord remains some distant event in the future well beyond the concerns of ourselves and our families. Yet, it remains an appointed day.

I'm in total agreement that Jesus is coming back. I just have problems with people predicting that it's going to be in such and such a year or even a certain 10 year period. What doe 2 Peter go on to say?

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What are we looking forward to? It's not the coming destruction. We are looking forward to a new earth, to complete restoration, as I said before and we should want to bring as many with us as possible.
 

Joseph77

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I'd like to believe that professing Christians, arguing doctrine on a Christian web site and claiming to believe the scriptures would actually have the hope of glory in them. That they would be looking for Christ's return, as in the celebration of His cup. That they would be looking for the signs of His coming and not greet Him as a thief in the night. I must really be getting old.
"Liking to think" something that is untrue, may not be 'best practice' for someone , for anyone, seeking God's Kingdom.
'Liking to think' something** is true, is the way false group recruit new members and keep old members, right ? (according to God's Word - The Truth)

**eg the apple is good for you, really, yes, really it is Eve, it will make you ... um... ah! Like gods! Yes, the apple will make you like gods - go ahead, eat it - it really really is good for you!
 

Joseph77

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Christianity has become a scene as in a club of sorts...its got its own language, its own practices and its own no talk rule when it comes to addressing popular sins....these folk are identified as tares or foolish virgins or verdant trees without fruit...they look good to men Lbut don't measure up in heart or behaviour.....they have justified fears for putting Jesus' return into the future.....they do not watch and are not ready as Jesus instructed those who take on his name to be.....they will be caught with their pants down unless there is a serious shift.
Yes, people join 'a club', without testing, without knowing, without realizing what they are joining,
then
they defend it .... Like Jesus Says: they will cross mountains and oceans to make one convert.... (to a group)... who then becomes twice as bad as themselves.
 
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Randy Kluth

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The mark of the beast, is not a literal physical mark.
Just as the seal of God (Revelation 7:3) is not a physical mark on the people of God.

That seal we understood as spiritual, in the faith and in
the character; this evil brand we must interpret in like manner, being also
a spiritual mark.

You cannot receive the seal of God without your willingness to serve the Lord and keep His commandments.
Nor can you receive this mark of the beast without willingness to do its commandments and taking an active role
in fighting against God and His saints. A mark that must be spiritually discerned.
(read the Holy Bible and keep God's commandments
and precepts and you will gain this discernment by knowing right from wrong)

There is much fear surrounding this doctrine where there needs not be.
Nobody can unknowingly receive this mark. Those who receive this mark, are made partakers
of the benefits of the beast's spiritual dominion. But by becoming willing servants unto Satan
and his spiritual dominion, have sadly, guaranteed their place in the lake of fire.

I tend to agree with this, although I can't be certain. It's true that in Ezekiel God made marks to remind Himself who belonged to Him and who didn't. People were supposed to prove who they were by their behavior, and not by their tattoos.

The important behavior to guard against is just as true today as it will be in the time of Antichrist. We are not to make pacts with the devil by entering in agreements with evil people. During Nazi Germany even some nominal "Christians" signed up for Nazi policies, which effectively signed their death warrant.

I agree that we shouldn't fear "taking the mark." Rather, we should fear behaving in an irresponsible way, sealing our fate by throwing our lot in with the wicked. That makes it much more "cut and dried."
 
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Randy Kluth

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So to speak, yes. In reminding Himself He is really telling us that He is taking notes on us. He uses angels to do this, and we are to believe Him simply because He said He is doing this. We don't need to see a mark. We need to know what He thinks about us signing our souls over to an evil dictator who murders Christians.
 

farouk

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I'm in total agreement that Jesus is coming back. I just have problems with people predicting that it's going to be in such and such a year or even a certain 10 year period. What doe 2 Peter go on to say?

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What are we looking forward to? It's not the coming destruction. We are looking forward to a new earth, to complete restoration, as I said before and we should want to bring as many with us as possible.
@Renniks Too much unnecessary speculation in any case discredits - in the eyes of others - people's trust in the promises of Scripture, especially when the speculated events do not happen at the time predicted with over-confidence.
 
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