I'd like to take up a point that slipped by. I won't be mentioning any names because who said it isn't important; what was said is. Here's what was said:
But that opinion-- that humans have personal agency in their decision to follow Jesus or not-- is the opposite of what Paul said in the following passage:
Paul extended that thought in Romans 9, which I encourage you to read in it's entirety. Here's a significant excerpt:
So yes indeed, God does damn people to hell. Humans are mere toys for God's amusement. We have no personal agency and we can't make our own choices; God manipulates all.
There are plenty of other passages throughout the Bible-- both Old and New Testaments-- that echo this idea. This point came up in a general discussion about how the Christian notion of Salvation works. What does one have to do to be saved? Most present day Christian sects maintain that faith in Jesus is the only requirement, and one can certainly find passages in the New Testament that support that interpretation:
That passage makes it sound like a person only needs to choose to believe in Jesus to be saved. But as the passages from Paul cited above show, Paul believed that God has pre-selected those who will even be able to believe in Jesus. That's tyranny.
As I mentioned in a different thread Matthew 6:14-15 specifically says that the only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith in Jesus is not necessary; just forgiveness. Forgiveness is specifically mentioned in the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), but faith in either Jesus or God is not!
The New Testament authors disagreed among themselves as to what a person must do to be saved. Some, like Matthew, believed that you have to be forgiving of and charitable to other people. But others, like John, believed that faith in Jesus is all that is required.
I asked the Christians who commented on this thread to explain how their idea of Salvation would apply to those who have never heard of Jesus or Yahweh or the Bible or Salvation ever in their entire lives. Some said, effectively, "Well, that's just too bad for them. Tough luck." That thought is perfectly in agreement with Paul's position that God pre-determines who will be saved and who will be damned. As I said before, the idea that some people cannot ever earn their own salvation by their own personal actions is pure bigotry. I see no reason to tolerate bigotry.
Others seem to want to hedge their bets. Maybe God performs a miracle behind the scenes. Maybe somehow he really does grant every human who ever has lived or ever will live the opportunity to choose to believe in the Son of God. But that idea is the exact opposite of what Paul said in the book of Romans.
The concept of Salvation is the most important concept in all of Christianity (or Islam for that matter). Christians should be able to explain both how Salvation works and how their interpretation of Salvation is consistent with what the Bible actually says-- and they should be able to do so in terms that anyone can understand. I would also expect them to describe a version of Salvation that isn't based on out-and-out bigotry. I would welcome any such explanation.
God does not damn anyone to hell. It is people - by their choices and actions - that people damn themselves. Damnation is the self-inflicted default human condition.
But that opinion-- that humans have personal agency in their decision to follow Jesus or not-- is the opposite of what Paul said in the following passage:
We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30, NRSVue)
Paul extended that thought in Romans 9, which I encourage you to read in it's entirety. Here's a significant excerpt:
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."So it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.
(Romans 9:14-18, NRSVue)
So yes indeed, God does damn people to hell. Humans are mere toys for God's amusement. We have no personal agency and we can't make our own choices; God manipulates all.
There are plenty of other passages throughout the Bible-- both Old and New Testaments-- that echo this idea. This point came up in a general discussion about how the Christian notion of Salvation works. What does one have to do to be saved? Most present day Christian sects maintain that faith in Jesus is the only requirement, and one can certainly find passages in the New Testament that support that interpretation:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
(John 3:16-18, NRSVue)
That passage makes it sound like a person only needs to choose to believe in Jesus to be saved. But as the passages from Paul cited above show, Paul believed that God has pre-selected those who will even be able to believe in Jesus. That's tyranny.
As I mentioned in a different thread Matthew 6:14-15 specifically says that the only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith in Jesus is not necessary; just forgiveness. Forgiveness is specifically mentioned in the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), but faith in either Jesus or God is not!
The New Testament authors disagreed among themselves as to what a person must do to be saved. Some, like Matthew, believed that you have to be forgiving of and charitable to other people. But others, like John, believed that faith in Jesus is all that is required.
I asked the Christians who commented on this thread to explain how their idea of Salvation would apply to those who have never heard of Jesus or Yahweh or the Bible or Salvation ever in their entire lives. Some said, effectively, "Well, that's just too bad for them. Tough luck." That thought is perfectly in agreement with Paul's position that God pre-determines who will be saved and who will be damned. As I said before, the idea that some people cannot ever earn their own salvation by their own personal actions is pure bigotry. I see no reason to tolerate bigotry.
Others seem to want to hedge their bets. Maybe God performs a miracle behind the scenes. Maybe somehow he really does grant every human who ever has lived or ever will live the opportunity to choose to believe in the Son of God. But that idea is the exact opposite of what Paul said in the book of Romans.
The concept of Salvation is the most important concept in all of Christianity (or Islam for that matter). Christians should be able to explain both how Salvation works and how their interpretation of Salvation is consistent with what the Bible actually says-- and they should be able to do so in terms that anyone can understand. I would also expect them to describe a version of Salvation that isn't based on out-and-out bigotry. I would welcome any such explanation.