The Messiah

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The story-- the fairy tale-- of the garden of Eden is key to understanding the Old Testament. In that story the reason God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden is stated in Genesis 3:22:

Then the LORD God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”-- therefore the LORD God sent them forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which they were taken.
(Genesis 3:22-23, NRSVue)

The consequence is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance humanity had for eternal life by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden-- and thereby denying to themselves and their descendants the ability to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament is written-- EXCEPT for the Book of Daniel. That is the only book in the Old Testament that explicitly says anything about the resurrection of the dead and rewards to be granted in the afterlife.

The New Testament authors claimed that the Old Testament authors “predicted” the coming of Jesus. In John 17:27 Martha, the sister of Lazarus, explicitly says that Jesus is the Messiah.

But the Old Testament authors could not possibly have predicted the coming of Jesus. Excepting the author of the book of Daniel, they didn’t believe in anything Jesus taught! They didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, or the last judgment, or rewards in the afterlife. They didn’t believe in anything Jesus had to say about the forgiveness of sins. As I mentioned in this posting:

Old Testament Morality

the Old Testament authors had their own method for forgiving sins-- the “sin offerings” described in great detail in Leviticus 4. They didn’t believe in Jesus’s idea of loving your enemies and forgiving those who sin against you. The Old Testament authors were focused on punishing anyone who violates Hebrew law. Jesus actually let a known adulteress go free!

And most importantly, the Old Testament authors expected that at the end of time everyone on earth would be converted to Judaism. Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the events at the end of time. That passage is notable for what it does not describe. There is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of rewards to be bestowed in the afterlife. Instead the passage says that the peoples of the world will abandon their warring ways and will return to growing crops. It’s an idyllic scene of pastoral tranquility, but one that happens in this life, not in the afterlife.

Chapter 14 of the book of Zechariah describes the Day of God. Prior to that day the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city and will attack and plunder it. Then God will appear and will afflict those who attacked Jerusalem with a terrible plague. And afterwards everyone who survives will be required to observe Jewish festivals:

Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths.
(Zechariah 14:16, NRSVue)

The Festival of Booths is a Jewish religious observance. There are no Christian churches that observe the Festival of Booths. Zechariah clearly expected that at the end of time everyone on planet earth would be converted to Judaism. They would be worshiping the Jewish God Yahweh, they would follow Jewish law, and they would observe all Jewish religious rites and festivals. And again, as in Isaiah, there is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of a reward in the afterlife. That is decidedly not the Christian vision of the end of time.

The evidence for the divergence between the Old Testament and the New Testament views of the world can be seen all throughout the Old Testament. Here’s an important example:

For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
I am counted among those who go down to the Pit;
I am like those who have no help,
like those forsaken among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
(Psalm 88:3-5, NRSVue)

According to the Psalm, God has forgotten about those who are in the grave; therefore God can’t possibly forgive their sins. And those in the grave are cut off from the hand of God; therefore God can’t resurrect them. There in this one Psalm we have a clear and explicit declaration that God is not omniscient, because he doesn’t remember the dead, and that he’s not omnipotent, because he can’t resurrect the dead.

The book of Job provides another important example of Old Testament thinking. That book has the longest and most sustained debate over the reward-and-punishment system advocated in the Old Testament. It never once mentions the afterlife, and once Job finally relents and agrees to set aside his sense of injustice, he receives his material reward in this life, not in the afterlife.

That is the profound difference between Old Testament and New Testament thinking. Throughout the Old Testament (with the exception of the book of Daniel), those who love and worship God are rewarded in this life, whereas in the New Testament rewards are only to be obtained in the afterlife:

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
(Matthew 6:19-20, NRSVue)

The Old Testament idea that those who love God and obey his commandments will be rewarded in this life was decisively disproved when Rome destroyed the Jewish temple and used monies taken from its treasury to build the Coliseum in Rome. But the Gospel authors spoke of even greater spiritual rewards to be had in the afterlife. It was an idea born of the times, and one which found many receptive ears in an era of autocratic oppression.
 
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Episkopos

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The story-- the fairy tale-- of the garden of Eden is key to understanding the Old Testament. In that story the reason God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden is stated in Genesis 3:22:



The consequence is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance humanity had for eternal life by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden-- and thereby denying to themselves and their descendants the ability to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament is written-- EXCEPT for the Book of Daniel. That is the only book in the Old Testament that explicitly says anything about the resurrection of the dead and rewards to be granted in the afterlife.

The New Testament authors claimed that the Old Testament authors “predicted” the coming of Jesus. In John 17:27 Martha, the sister of Lazarus, explicitly says that Jesus is the Messiah.

Hi Rev. :) I notice how thoughtful of a process you are laying out in your post. And most believers won't interact with you since most of them are satisfied with the evidence already received...whether that be an explicit faith in God or because of a dogmatic stance that conforms to what they are looking for.

But the truth is hidden away from "prying" or curious eyes. God is looking for more than just curious inquirers. So then..

1. God hides Himself away.

God is looking for an intimate union with His creation. Those who find Him must seek Him the right way...deeply from the heart. In truth and sincerity. There is nothing superficial about God.

If you are willing I can show you a few verses that can only be honestly understood if one sees The Father sending His Son into the world to redeem it back to Him.

Rather than lay a whole lot of verses on you I will keep it basic and give you one citation of 4 verses in Zechariah. If you read these with an intent to understand the minimalist and understated truth therein...you will begin to appreciate just how hidden the message is. Any surface perusing of the bible will miss the depth of it.

That reference is Zech. 2: 8-11

8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me.
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.



In it you may find that the Lord is sending the Lord to us. Truly a binary Elohim...Father and Son.

If other wish to join into discussion on this reference...all are welcome to it.
 
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Mr E

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The story-- the fairy tale-- of the garden of Eden is key to understanding the Old Testament. In that story the reason God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden is stated in Genesis 3:22:

The consequence is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance humanity had for eternal life by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden-- and thereby denying to themselves and their descendants the ability to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament is written-- EXCEPT for the Book of Daniel. That is the only book in the Old Testament that explicitly says anything about the resurrection of the dead and rewards to be granted in the afterlife.

The New Testament authors claimed that the Old Testament authors “predicted” the coming of Jesus. In John 17:27 Martha, the sister of Lazarus, explicitly says that Jesus is the Messiah.

But the Old Testament authors could not possibly have predicted the coming of Jesus. Excepting the author of the book of Daniel, they didn’t believe in anything Jesus taught! They didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, or the last judgment, or rewards in the afterlife. They didn’t believe in anything Jesus had to say about the forgiveness of sins. As I mentioned in this posting:

Old Testament Morality

the Old Testament authors had their own method for forgiving sins-- the “sin offerings” described in great detail in Leviticus 4. They didn’t believe in Jesus’s idea of loving your enemies and forgiving those who sin against you. The Old Testament authors were focused on punishing anyone who violates Hebrew law. Jesus actually let a known adulteress go free!

And most importantly, the Old Testament authors expected that at the end of time everyone on earth would be converted to Judaism. Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the events at the end of time. That passage is notable for what it does not describe. There is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of rewards to be bestowed in the afterlife. Instead the passage says that the peoples of the world will abandon their warring ways and will return to growing crops. It’s an idyllic scene of pastoral tranquility, but one that happens in this life, not in the afterlife.

Chapter 14 of the book of Zechariah describes the Day of God. Prior to that day the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city and will attack and plunder it. Then God will appear and will afflict those who attacked Jerusalem with a terrible plague. And afterwards everyone who survives will be required to observe Jewish festivals:

The Festival of Booths is a Jewish religious observance. There are no Christian churches that observe the Festival of Booths. Zechariah clearly expected that at the end of time everyone on planet earth would be converted to Judaism. They would be worshiping the Jewish God Yahweh, they would follow Jewish law, and they would observe all Jewish religious rites and festivals. And again, as in Isaiah, there is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of a reward in the afterlife. That is decidedly not the Christian vision of the end of time.

The evidence for the divergence between the Old Testament and the New Testament views of the world can be seen all throughout the Old Testament. Here’s an important example:

According to the Psalm, God has forgotten about those who are in the grave; therefore God can’t possibly forgive their sins. And those in the grave are cut off from the hand of God; therefore God can’t resurrect them. There in this one Psalm we have a clear and explicit declaration that God is not omniscient, because he doesn’t remember the dead, and that he’s not omnipotent, because he can’t resurrect the dead.

The book of Job provides another important example of Old Testament thinking. That book has the longest and most sustained debate over the reward-and-punishment system advocated in the Old Testament. It never once mentions the afterlife, and once Job finally relents and agrees to set aside his sense of injustice, he receives his material reward in this life, not in the afterlife.

That is the profound difference between Old Testament and New Testament thinking. Throughout the Old Testament (with the exception of the book of Daniel), those who love and worship God are rewarded in this life, whereas in the New Testament rewards are only to be obtained in the afterlife:


The Old Testament idea that those who love God and obey his commandments will be rewarded in this life was decisively disproved when Rome destroyed the Jewish temple and used monies taken from its treasury to build the Coliseum in Rome. But the Gospel authors spoke of even greater spiritual rewards to be had in the afterlife. It was an idea born of the times, and one which found many receptive ears in an era of autocratic oppression.

Clearly you have an axe to grind. You entitled the thread "Messiah" but the idea barely gets a mention in your long drawn out post, full of many points of contention. Like many discontents, you feel like complaining about your dissatisfactions point by point, -is- the point.

Your only mention of the messiah at all was used simply as a springboard to link to yet another post, that doesn't mention the messiah at all-- rather it's about your site-seeing trip to France with your wife. Riveting.

The New Testament authors claimed that the Old Testament authors “predicted” the coming of Jesus. In John 17:27 Martha, the sister of Lazarus, explicitly says that Jesus is the Messiah.

But the Old Testament authors could not possibly have predicted the coming of Jesus. Excepting the author of the book of Daniel, they didn’t believe in anything Jesus taught! They didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, or the last judgment, or rewards in the afterlife. They didn’t believe in anything Jesus had to say about the forgiveness of sins. As I mentioned in this posting:

Old Testament Morality


Typical intellectually dishonest click-bait.


Try harder to make your thread title relate to your content. Maybe something like-- 'Garden of Eden- the fairy tale in Genesis'


The story-- the fairy tale-- of the garden of Eden is key to understanding the Old Testament.

Of course it's not exactly a fairy tale... -it's a parable. There's a difference. Instead of "Once upon a time" -Genesis has "In the beginning" so there's that... ;)

What is it exactly that you really wanted to talk about? Messiah? The creation story? Your trip to France?
 
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Mr E

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Well if it is a "fairy tale" why are you wasting your time and ours on it? Just dismiss it as a fairy tale and look for something substantial.

He's right though. He recognizes it as the key..... just like the Messiah taught.

Do you?
 

Behold

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The consequence is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance humanity had for eternal life

Actually, what you stated, is not true., at all.

As Jesus on the Cross, has restored "eternal life" to all the born again.

Here, let me show you how....

Jesus said......"all that believe in me, i give unto them ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".
 

ScottA

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The story-- the fairy tale-- of the garden of Eden is key to understanding the Old Testament. In that story the reason God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden is stated in Genesis 3:22:



The consequence is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance humanity had for eternal life by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden-- and thereby denying to themselves and their descendants the ability to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament is written-- EXCEPT for the Book of Daniel. That is the only book in the Old Testament that explicitly says anything about the resurrection of the dead and rewards to be granted in the afterlife.

The New Testament authors claimed that the Old Testament authors “predicted” the coming of Jesus. In John 17:27 Martha, the sister of Lazarus, explicitly says that Jesus is the Messiah.

But the Old Testament authors could not possibly have predicted the coming of Jesus. Excepting the author of the book of Daniel, they didn’t believe in anything Jesus taught! They didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, or the last judgment, or rewards in the afterlife. They didn’t believe in anything Jesus had to say about the forgiveness of sins. As I mentioned in this posting:

Old Testament Morality

the Old Testament authors had their own method for forgiving sins-- the “sin offerings” described in great detail in Leviticus 4. They didn’t believe in Jesus’s idea of loving your enemies and forgiving those who sin against you. The Old Testament authors were focused on punishing anyone who violates Hebrew law. Jesus actually let a known adulteress go free!

And most importantly, the Old Testament authors expected that at the end of time everyone on earth would be converted to Judaism. Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the events at the end of time. That passage is notable for what it does not describe. There is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of rewards to be bestowed in the afterlife. Instead the passage says that the peoples of the world will abandon their warring ways and will return to growing crops. It’s an idyllic scene of pastoral tranquility, but one that happens in this life, not in the afterlife.

Chapter 14 of the book of Zechariah describes the Day of God. Prior to that day the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city and will attack and plunder it. Then God will appear and will afflict those who attacked Jerusalem with a terrible plague. And afterwards everyone who survives will be required to observe Jewish festivals:



The Festival of Booths is a Jewish religious observance. There are no Christian churches that observe the Festival of Booths. Zechariah clearly expected that at the end of time everyone on planet earth would be converted to Judaism. They would be worshiping the Jewish God Yahweh, they would follow Jewish law, and they would observe all Jewish religious rites and festivals. And again, as in Isaiah, there is no mention of the resurrection of the dead, or of a last judgment, or of a reward in the afterlife. That is decidedly not the Christian vision of the end of time.

The evidence for the divergence between the Old Testament and the New Testament views of the world can be seen all throughout the Old Testament. Here’s an important example:



According to the Psalm, God has forgotten about those who are in the grave; therefore God can’t possibly forgive their sins. And those in the grave are cut off from the hand of God; therefore God can’t resurrect them. There in this one Psalm we have a clear and explicit declaration that God is not omniscient, because he doesn’t remember the dead, and that he’s not omnipotent, because he can’t resurrect the dead.

The book of Job provides another important example of Old Testament thinking. That book has the longest and most sustained debate over the reward-and-punishment system advocated in the Old Testament. It never once mentions the afterlife, and once Job finally relents and agrees to set aside his sense of injustice, he receives his material reward in this life, not in the afterlife.

That is the profound difference between Old Testament and New Testament thinking. Throughout the Old Testament (with the exception of the book of Daniel), those who love and worship God are rewarded in this life, whereas in the New Testament rewards are only to be obtained in the afterlife:



The Old Testament idea that those who love God and obey his commandments will be rewarded in this life was decisively disproved when Rome destroyed the Jewish temple and used monies taken from its treasury to build the Coliseum in Rome. But the Gospel authors spoke of even greater spiritual rewards to be had in the afterlife. It was an idea born of the times, and one which found many receptive ears in an era of autocratic oppression.

For someone who claims to be an atheist, you sure seem to believe in God.

But you also seem troubled. Instead of taking on the entire unseen realm and reality of God and falling on your face, why don't you just pick one little thing at a time and allow yourself the baby steps that all children need?
 
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Wrangler

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Like many discontents, you feel like complaining about your dissatisfactions point by point, -is- the point.

Agreed.

But the Old Testament authors could not possibly have predicted the coming of Jesus.
Obviously, you are not acting on my suggestion to focus your thoughts on how the Bible could be right. Consider Mark 14:61-62 (AMP)
High Priest: Are You the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the Blessed One?
Jesus: I am.

Why did the High Priest ask Jesus this question? (It is THE Q&A that got Jesus killed.) The obvious answer refutes your claim; that the Jews were indeed expecting - and are still to this day - expecting the arrival of the Messiah.

I'm sure you are smart enough to research OT prophecies of the Messiah but just to help you out.

John 1:45 Philip went to look for Nathanael and told him, “We have found the very person Moses and the prophets wrote about! His name is Jesus, the son of Joseph from Nazareth.”

And what did Moses write about?

15 Moses continued, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai.[a] You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’
17 “Then the LORD said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 (This explains why Jesus is called the word of God)​
Hope this helps.
 

Wrangler

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they didn’t believe in anything Jesus taught! They didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, or the last judgment, or rewards in the afterlife. They didn’t believe in anything Jesus had to say about the forgiveness of sins.
Such a peculiar rationalization ... The doctor cannot possibly be competent because he gave me a diagnosis I don't like or disagree with!

In my study of the Bible, I am amazed to learn how much of what Jesus said was from the OT. Even his dying words on the cross is Psalm 22.

And if you study, you will find many of your claims above are just plain wrong. They did believe in the resurrection of the dead. The 1st king of Israel summoned the dead prophet Samual. Both Elijah and Elisha resurrected people from the dead.

When I read your posts I am reminded of this quote from Ronaldo Maximus.


It's not that our Liberal friends are ignorant. It's that they know so much that isn't so.
Ronald Reagan, 40th POTUS
 
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That reference is Zech. 2: 8-11

8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me.
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.


In it you may find that the Lord is sending the Lord to us. Truly a binary Elohim...Father and Son.

The passage you cited is an excerpt from a longer passage in which the author, Zechariah, calls on the exiles of the kingdom of Judah to return from Babylon to their homeland and to reclaim Jerusalem. When he says "Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me," the "me" of that sentence is Zechariah, not Jesus, and decidedly not the son of God.

Besides, what does any of that have to do with the fact that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden because God didn't want them to have eternal life? Jesus could not possibly have been the person whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament authors (not prophets) because they didn't believe any of his most important teachings. Pretty simple, but you have to read virtually the entire Old Testament to get the big picture. One passage, or even a handful of passages, just isn't enough.
 
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Obviously, you are not acting on my suggestion to focus your thoughts on how the Bible could be right. Consider Mark 14:61-62 (AMP)
High Priest: Are You the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the Blessed One?
Jesus: I am.

Why did the High Priest ask Jesus this question? (It is THE Q&A that got Jesus killed.) The obvious answer refutes your claim; that the Jews were indeed expecting - and are still to this day - expecting the arrival of the Messiah.

And should I also focus my thoughts on how the Egyptian Book of the Dead might be right? Or the Koran? Or the Book of Mormon? Or the writings of Baháʼu'lláh? Or the Mahabharata? Or is it ONLY the Bible that must be treated that way? If so, why?
 

Wrangler

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And should I also focus my thoughts on how the Egyptian Book of the Dead might be right? Or the Koran? Or the Book of Mormon? Or the writings of Baháʼu'lláh? Or the Mahabharata? Or is it ONLY the Bible that must be treated that way? If so, why?
Yes, only the Bible should be considered as being correct. The reason is that this is a Christian forum.
 
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Consider Mark 14:61-62 (AMP)
High Priest: Are You the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the Blessed One?
Jesus: I am.

Why did the High Priest ask Jesus this question? (It is THE Q&A that got Jesus killed.) The obvious answer refutes your claim; that the Jews were indeed expecting - and are still to this day - expecting the arrival of the Messiah.

You left out the most important part of that quotation:

Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy!"
(Mark 14:63, NRSVue)

The reason the high priest asked the question was because he wanted to entrap Jesus into committing blasphemy. The priest believed that it was obvious that Jesus could not possibly have been the Messiah-- that's why he thought Jesus had committed blasphemy!
 
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And what did Moses write about?

15 Moses continued, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai.[a] You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’
17 “Then the LORD said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 (This explains why Jesus is called the word of God)​

There is no evidence in the cited passage that the person of whom the author wrote was Jesus. The author spoke only of a prophet.
 
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And if you study, you will find many of your claims above are just plain wrong. They did believe in the resurrection of the dead. The 1st king of Israel summoned the dead prophet Samual. Both Elijah and Elisha resurrected people from the dead.

Those resurrections were not in the context of all the dead being resurrected to stand trial at the last judgment.
 

Wrangler

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You left out the most important part of that quotation:
No, I included the most important part of te verse.
There is no evidence in the cited passage that the person of whom the author wrote was Jesus. The author spoke only of a prophet.
Yes, I already provided the evidence.
John 1:45 Philip went to look for Nathanael and told him, “We have found the very person Moses and the prophets wrote about! His name is Jesus, the son of Joseph from Nazareth.”