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Featured The mid 60's or The mid 90's?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Willie T, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about?
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    No...it makes it more unsettled. I have read him and I don't recall this claim, so I will have to search it out. But even if he is wrong about the length of Christ's ministry, it doesn't mean he is wrong about everything. It means we ought to check it out and not give him the benefit of doubt.
     
  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I just took you at your word when you asked about what I meant. I failed "Mind Reading 101." I didn't know you really didn't mean those things.
    The insincerity? The seeming desire to see if we could play the "Argument game" is what I meant. I don't argue anything with anyone. You'll have to go to someone else for that kind of entertainment. I presented a few things I enjoyed reading, and if you have a different view, well that's fine. I'm not trying to persuade anyone who wants to believe differently. I even gave the site address so people could get the book for free and read the other 58,000 words I didn't post, and decide if they liked any of it.
     
  4. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Huh?

    Very unlike you, Willie. Because I asked a few questions, you believe I didn't mean those things?

    Yea... Ok, Willie! Sorry to bother you with my questions and commentary.
     
  5. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    This is just something I found online. I don't have this book, so it may not be in there:

    "The Thirty aeons are not typified by the fact that Christ was baptized in his 30th year: He did NOT suffer in the twelfth month after his baptism, but was MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS OLD WHEN HE DIED."
    – Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II, 22.
     
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  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    No. That is prophetic concerning the nation of Israel. All of Israel was held accountable for the crucifixion of Christ, and will continue to be held accountable.

    So at His Second Coming Jews from all around the world will see their true Messiah (with the marks of His Passion). And they will weep, mourn, repent, and be converted.

    Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

    As to the OP the general consensus is that it was written in AD 96.

    "...Briefly, there are practically only two opinions, between which the reader must decide. The book was either written about the year A.D. 68 or 69, or about a quarter of a century later (A.D. 96), in the reign of Domitian.

    The later date was that which was accepted almost uniformly by the older theologians. In favour of this early tradition has been appealed to. The most important witness (in some respects) is Irenæus, who says that “the Apocalypse was seen not long ago, but almost in our own age, towards the end of the reign of Domitian.” Other writers have been claimed as giving a support to this view by their mention of Patmos as the place of St. John’s banishment; and it is plain from the way in which Eusebius quotes the mention of the Patmos exile by Clement of Alexandria, that he associated it with the reign of Domitian....

    The advocates of the later date rely much upon the degenerate state of the Asiatic churches, as described in the Epistles to the Seven Churches. The Epistles to the Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon were written during the captivity of St. Paul at Rome, about the year A.D. 63. If, then, the Apocalypse was written in A.D. 69 or 70, we have only an interval of six or seven years to account for a striking change in the spiritual condition of the Asiatic churches. Can we believe that a Church which is so forward in love as that of Ephesus (Ephesians 3:18) can have in so short a time left its first love? Can it be believed that the Laodicean Church—whoso spiritual condition in A.D. 63 can be inferred from that of Colossæ (Colossians 1:3-4)—can have, in six brief years, forsaken their “faith in Christ Jesus, and their love to all the saints,” and become the “lukewarm” church (Revelation 3:15-16) of the Apocalypse?..."

    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
     
  7. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This is not Irenaeus getting dates wrong, this is him misinterpreting a text to believe it necessitated a longer duration of ministry for Christ in John 8:57. That should not call into question his stating of when Revelation was written since he would have been alive with people who would have been living when the book was written. He also served under Polycarp who served directly under John and would have known, without question, when the text had been written.

    Iranaeus is too specific about who was reigning at the time of writing for it to be a mere mistake in date.
     
  8. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 1:13-14 KJV
    [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; [14] As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    Guess Paul nailed that one??

    Revelation 1:1 KJV
    [1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants


    Tecarta Bible

    Tecarta Bible
     
  9. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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  10. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:7 "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."

    This angel is going to tell us the mystery of the woman, the beast, the heads, and the horns. Satan will work differently in this second earth age, than he worked in the first earth age [given in Revelation 12:1-6]. Then the crowns of power was given to the kings that sat over the people, where as in Revelation 13:1-3 we saw that it was the ten agencies of power that wore the crowns of power, not individuals.

    Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

    This "beast" was in the Garden of Eden deceiving [beguiling] Eve; he is not here now, for he is in heaven accusing the saints before the throne of God, now. He [Satan] will ascend out of the bottomless pit, as we saw in Revelation 9:1, and 2, and "he will go to perdition", following the judgment at the end of the Millennium kingdom age. Friend, "he" spoken of here, is Satan, and don't let any one tell you any different. Satan is the "son of perdition" as recorded in II Thessalonians 2:1-4, and he will be the first Christ to come at the end of this earth age.

    "Perdition" means to "perish", and only Satan has had that sentence passed on him at this time. We are told that those "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world", [that first earth age], will wonder, or follow after Satan. They fell in the first earth age, and they will also fall in this earth age. Those of who were chosen in that first earth age stood against Satan then, and they will also stand now. They are God's elect.

    When the last of the elect, and the 144,000 of Israel are sealed, then Satan will arrive as the Antichrist. This age is a repeat of the first earth age. Now, what about the other Christians? They will follow false doctrine, and go into Satan's camp. The deception will cover the whole earth, yet the truth is in your hands to forewarn those around you in this generation.

    There will be no equal to the deceptions that are going to come, in the history of all mankind. Yet the sermons of today are full of nonsense, with no sense of urgency given even as this great hour of deception is at our doorstep. The Church sleeps, while the Kenites steal the sheep.

    Revelation 17:9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

    If you understand God's prophecy, then you have "wisdom". The "Mountains" are seven nations, or dominions. They are areas of land, and all seven dominions comprise the entire earth. They will make up Satan's earthly kingdom. A "kingdom" is "a king and his domain". The "woman", or this false religion will sit and rule over all seven of these dominions. "She" is the religion of Satan created by the Kenites, and the eighth verse told us it is Satan [the beast] that will sit over the woman.

    Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

    Now we get to something a little different. When we go back to verse eight, we will understand it.

    There were ten kings at first, but this deals with seven different kings. These seven kings have been over their dominions for some time. There is only one king that Christ has given power over all the earth in the past two thousand years, and that king is Satan. These seven kings represent the seven offices that Satan has held, from the "dragon" in the first earth age, "serpent" in the garden, all the way through this age to the Antichrist at the end of this age. There has been five roles that Satan has and is playing to this date, and Satan is our "accuser" before the throne of God today, but in time he will be right here on earth filling the role of Antichrist, which will be for a very short time. Satan's final role starts shortly, very shortly, with Michael casting him out of heaven [Revelation 12:7]. He will have only five months in his final role of this earth age.

    Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

    Remember in verse eight, "he" was the one out of the pit. Satan's "eighth" role is when he goes into perdition. Why, "of the seven"? Because he was over the seven, one entity in all seven positions; and now this eighth is his last.

    No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.

    Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."

    These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.

    The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

    This is the time to have your Spiritual armor on and ready for the battle. There is no "rapture" or escape from this hour of temptation here on earth, but God's armor is sufficient to protect you during this spiritual battle. I am aware that this is the point that deceivers use to draw you in; however, it is the very deception that will lead you to the Antichrist.
     
  11. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

    This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book will just not make sense. The sequence of the order will seem strange.

    "I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

    The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

    Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

    This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this flesh period, before the start of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

    Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

    Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

    This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days.

    Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this flesh period, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches.

    revelation1
     
  12. Stan B

    Stan B Well-Known Member

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    John recorded the Revelation as it was given to him while on Patmos. Don't recall if he ever got off of that island, but in St. Jerome's [400 AD] History of the Saints, he says that John lived to be 120 years of age, which leaves a time frame for the release of the Revelation well beyond AD 96!
     
  13. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    One problem we create right here is the fact that we are changing something used only one single time in the entire Bible, the esoteric and isolated term, "The Lord's Day", into another term that was rather commonplace, "The Day of The Lord." Why do we want to do this when John certainly wouldn't have had to do so for any reason. His hearers would have understood him much more clearly if he had used the standard and usual term "The Day of The Lord", that all the other writers of the Bible used. [Speaking of those who penned that phrase, of course] (Unless, perhaps, he meant something different?)

    I think this is the kind of step that throws so many people off. They, we, even the writer of this book..... may make an "assumption", and then, by tacking the word "therefore" onto it, proceed under that possibly false assumption to build all sorts of cases and doctrines on that new meaning we introduced.


    Public Television does it all the time. "We think the world is 'X' millions of years old." "Therefore, since the world is 'X' millions of years old, thus-and-such happened....." or.... "We think catfish once decided to grow feet so they could walk around on dry land." "Therefore, since this is where ducks came from, it is obvious cats evolved from ducks."
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  14. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    what you say here is interesting but one thing you should keep in mind, the Jews didn't pierce Him, the Romans did. it was the romans (gentiles) that paraded Him in the streets and made the cross and hanged Him on it and then pierced Him to be sure He was dead.

    when the lamb that someone brings for offering, the priests examine it for flaws, the person who brought it grabs the lamb by the head and kills it, then the priests take over. Rome was the world power of the day so the Jews (the priests) examined the lamb, that it could be offered, and the Romans offered it. both totally unaware of what they were doing in God's eyes.

    anyway what is mentioned in your posting that is based on the precept that the Jews pierced Him would be incorrect.
     
  15. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Hi DP, do you believe man offers Christ to God as a sacrifice for their sins?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  16. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    The mid 60's. When I saw the title at first I thought of the weather and you were going to ask us which temperature we liked. :)
     
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  17. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    That might be more interesting. I had no idea I was going to ferret so many "die-hards" out of the woodwork.
     
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  18. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    The lord's Day is the Day of the Lord.John goes forward and backwards from that time.Can't see it meaning the sabbath,ie or any day of the week
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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