The Mid Tribulation Rapture

[iamlamad]

The abomination is not setup until the Rev.12:7-9 verses occur. It's the section past Rev.12:7-9 that's about the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".

Rev 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(KJV)

Do you see that "from the face of the serpent" there? Do you see verse 13 about the dragon seeing he's cast to the earth, and then going after the symbolic woman to persecute? THAT's about the latter half of Daniel's "one week".

You can count can't you? That's a SECOND mention in that Rev.12 chapter about the woman fleeing. With the first one do you see anyone persecuting the woman, or her having to flee "from the face of the serpent"? No, those parameters are not their in the first mention at Rev.12:6!

Moreover, this fleeing here IS NOT A LITERAL FLEEING anyway!

Are you a Messianic too? You sound like it, struggling with treating symbology as literal, and literal things as symbology. That's who is busy today pushing the fleeing to the desert ideas today (not the mountains).


Here's what's meant by that fleeing in Rev.12...

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)

Do floods of waters really come out one's mouth??? NO! of course not. Not even that serpent's mouth. It's a SYMBOL for something else... that comes out of his mouth.

Let's see, what does... come out one's mouth? tic-tock, tic-tock

Veteran, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is so difficult! Trying to force scripture to fit your theories is indeed difficult.

What did Daniel 9: 27 tell us? That it is the abomination that divides the week into two exact halves. The Hebrew word is chetsiy and it means to divide in half.

Therefore, when John mentions 1260 days, that is a COUNT over the last half of the week. We see that count given in days, in months and in years. But if it is given in days, we KNOW it is accurate to the very day. So if an event is to start in the exact middle (divide in half) it will be 1260 days to the end.

Therefore, when we see the 1260 days in 12:6, we can KNOW the event in question will happen ON THE DAY OF THE ABOMINATION.Since you are so fond of Matt. 24, let's go there:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

See the abomination?.....Daniel tells us this is what divides the week into two halves......
Beginning | -1260 days -> Abomination <- 1260 days - | ending.

So verse 15 above is exactly 1260 days from the beginning and exactly 1260 days from the end.

Now, WHAT is Jesus instructions to those that see this event? they are to FLEE.


Rev. 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days

This 1260 days tells us this event is AT THE TIME OF THE ABOMINATION - the exact midpoint of the week.

Therefore, common sense tells us they are obeying Jesus command and have started fleeing. Does the literal sense here make good sense? Certainly it does. Fled is past tense for flee. They saw the abomination and they immediately started fleeing. After they began to flee, one could say they have fled. The flying in verse 14 BEGAN with the fleeing in verse 6. Did you forget what was written about the fleeing out of Egypt?

Exodus 19:4
‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
"the woman were given two wings of a great eagle"

This is speaking of supernatural protection. OF COURSE the Dragon will go after her: that is why Jesus told they not to waste one second, but to RUN. God put a wall of fire between them and the Egyptian army. Perhaps he will do the same thing again.

12:7-9 is another event that will begin within a few seconds (perhaps even one) of the abomination. Michael has been waiting for centuries for the 7th trumpet to blow, for that is His signal to take Satan DOWN. Sorry, your timing is off, as usual. these two things are happening simultaneously: the woman beginning to flee and Michael going after Satan. But John cannot write of both at the same time; one must be written first. The abomination was not seen by John. But we can KNOW it takes place just before 12:6. In fact, the 7th trumpet in heaven sounds at the exact time the man of sin says "I AM GOD."

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

Greetings,

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

During this final 42 month period, described as the Great Tribulation (see Revelation 7:14), because of its intensity and immensity, the Children of Israel are protected by their God. He took care of them for 40 years as they wandered through the wilderness, and now He again proves His love to His ancient people by delivering them. Yes, they shall be saved out of it (Jeremiah 30:7). And that time thy people shall be delivered (Daniel 12:1). Matthew 24:22 adds, For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The elect in this text are unmistakably Jews. (See Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 22).



Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Rev 12:8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Some Bible authorities believe that this war in heaven began at the time of the Rapture in chapter 4:1. Since a war involves a number of skirmishes or battles, this is a distinct possibility. The assumption is based on Daniel 12:1and 2.

These scholars reason that since those who are caught up in the Rapture of the church must pass through the areas where Satan reigns -the aerial and stellar heavens- Satan becomes aroused and attempts to hinder this evacuation of the Saints from the earth. However, as he attempts to interfere in this glorious event, angels -ministers of the Saints- (see Hebrews 1:14)- rush to the rescue, as the space confrontation and conflagration begins. This happened in the past, why could it not occur again? Where did it happen in the past? Consider Daniel 10:13 as we are introduced to Michael, the commander-in-chief of heaven's armies. Daniel says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes [an angelic name and title] came to help me". God tells Daniel that he had every intention of answering his prayers, but for 21 days the devil tried to hinder the response. Finally God had to send Michael to battle the devil in the area of his domain (the first and second heavens) in order to make the answer a reality. Thus, it is possible that Michael will again battle God's adversary at the time of the rapture in order to allow Christians their entrance in to glory in the twinkling of an eye, as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 54.

Michael is mentioned five times in God's Word, beginning with Daniel 10:13. We find him again in Daniel 10:21 where he is described to the Children of Israel as Michael, your prince. His third mention is in Daniel 12:1:"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people". In Jude 9, we find Michael, the archangel, contending with the devil over the body of Moses. Notice that every time Michael appears, he is connected with the Children of Israel, making it very possible that he is at war with Satan in our present and fifth text, defending the Jewish people.

The war is on, and it is the greatest aerial combat in history: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Satan]; and the dragon fought and his angels. Are you shocked to discover Satan in heaven? Most people including most Christians imagine him as a little creature dressed in a red uniform, running around in a place called hell, jabbing his victims with a pitchfork. This is all a lot of mythological nonsense.

Satan is a magnificent creature to behold. In fact his beauty brought his ruin. Ezekiel 28:17 states: "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you". Not only is it a lie to picture Satan has a grotesque monstrosity, but it is equally false to place him in hell. He has never been there. He is the god of this world system, the prince of the power of the air, and the prince of this world, as we have already observed. He has been in heavens one and two (the aerial and stellar heavens) since his fall, and he will remain there until he is cast to the earth in verse 9. It is also important to note that he is not cast into eternal hell (the lake of fire) to join those he has duped until after the Millennium (chapter 20:10). Now, as this battle is fought, Satan is defeated. Praise God! Satan is mighty, but God is Almighty! Satan can destroy, but God can destroy the destroyer! That is why the Christian should never fear the events of daily life. He has victory in Jesus. Yes, greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Satan's demise began when he was cast out of the third heaven (see Isaiah 14:12 – 14), continues until Revelation 12:9 when he is cast out of the first and second heavens, and is completed when he is cast into the lake of fire (chapter 20:10). John foresaw that hour and said, The prince of this world shall be cast out (John 12:31) and the prince of this world is judged (John 16:11). To the internal Christ, Satan's doom was as good as accomplished, but for you and me, time had to pass. Now, in our text, the moment has arrived: (Satan and his angels) prevailed not (verse 8). Michael's gunners zero in, and Satan's place -an abiding location for centuries- is found no longer. Instead, the dragon (Satan) which deceives the whole world: [is] cast out into the earth, and his angels [are] cast out with him. This signals the end of Satan's role in the aerial and stellar heavens, and the victory celebration begins. All heaven rejoices over that which Michael's defeat of Satan has accomplished.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is so difficult! Trying to force scripture to fit your theories is indeed difficult.

If you cannot understand that Rev.12 Scripture according to what I showed, then you indeed are far, far behind in your Bible study.


What did Daniel 9: 27 tell us? That it is the abomination that divides the week into two exact halves. The Hebrew word is chetsiy and it means to divide in half.

Therefore, when John mentions 1260 days, that is a COUNT over the last half of the week. We see that count given in days, in months and in years. But if it is given in days, we KNOW it is accurate to the very day. So if an event is to start in the exact middle (divide in half) it will be 1260 days to the end.

Therefore, when we see the 1260 days in 12:6, we can KNOW the event in question will happen ON THE DAY OF THE ABOMINATION.Since you are so fond of Matt. 24, let's go there:

Better that you address the actual Dan.9:27 verse first, since you clearly contradict yourself in the above.


Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

That "one week" is symbolic of 7 years. 1260 days is only 3.5 years. So where's the OTHER 1260 days in that? It is... there.

First 1260 days period (or 1st half of the "one week") = a league made in Jerusalem for 7 years STARTS the 1st 1260 days period.

Second 1260 days (last half) = begins when that false one places the abomination of desolation in the temple. That... is the mid-point of Daniel's "one week" and it BEGINS the last half 1260 day count.

| -----League made ------------- | Antichrist places AOD ---- | ------- tribulation ------------------| Day of The LORD
| --------1260 days -------------- | -------- Mid point ------------| --------- 1260 days --------------- | Christ's coming


So WHY have you come here to try... and confuse Christ's believers?

I can see right now you're just another FALSE JEW.

 

[iamlamad]

Greetings,

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

During this final 42 month period, described as the Great Tribulation (see Revelation 7:14), because of its intensity and immensity, the Children of Israel are protected by their God. He took care of them for 40 years as they wandered through the wilderness, and now He again proves His love to His ancient people by delivering them. Yes, they shall be saved out of it (Jeremiah 30:7). And that time thy people shall be delivered (Daniel 12:1). Matthew 24:22 adds, For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The elect in this text are unmistakably Jews. (See Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 22).



Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Rev 12:8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Some Bible authorities believe that this war in heaven began at the time of the Rapture in chapter 4:1. Since a war involves a number of skirmishes or battles, this is a distinct possibility. The assumption is based on Daniel 12:1and 2.

These scholars reason that since those who are caught up in the Rapture of the church must pass through the areas where Satan reigns -the aerial and stellar heavens- Satan becomes aroused and attempts to hinder this evacuation of the Saints from the earth. However, as he attempts to interfere in this glorious event, angels -ministers of the Saints- (see Hebrews 1:14)- rush to the rescue, as the space confrontation and conflagration begins. This happened in the past, why could it not occur again? Where did it happen in the past? Consider Daniel 10:13 as we are introduced to Michael, the commander-in-chief of heaven's armies. Daniel says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes [an angelic name and title] came to help me". God tells Daniel that he had every intention of answering his prayers, but for 21 days the devil tried to hinder the response. Finally God had to send Michael to battle the devil in the area of his domain (the first and second heavens) in order to make the answer a reality. Thus, it is possible that Michael will again battle God's adversary at the time of the rapture in order to allow Christians their entrance in to glory in the twinkling of an eye, as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 54.

Michael is mentioned five times in God's Word, beginning with Daniel 10:13. We find him again in Daniel 10:21 where he is described to the Children of Israel as Michael, your prince. His third mention is in Daniel 12:1:"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people". In Jude 9, we find Michael, the archangel, contending with the devil over the body of Moses. Notice that every time Michael appears, he is connected with the Children of Israel, making it very possible that he is at war with Satan in our present and fifth text, defending the Jewish people.

The war is on, and it is the greatest aerial combat in history: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Satan]; and the dragon fought and his angels. Are you shocked to discover Satan in heaven? Most people including most Christians imagine him as a little creature dressed in a red uniform, running around in a place called hell, jabbing his victims with a pitchfork. This is all a lot of mythological nonsense.

Satan is a magnificent creature to behold. In fact his beauty brought his ruin. Ezekiel 28:17 states: "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you". Not only is it a lie to picture Satan has a grotesque monstrosity, but it is equally false to place him in hell. He has never been there. He is the god of this world system, the prince of the power of the air, and the prince of this world, as we have already observed. He has been in heavens one and two (the aerial and stellar heavens) since his fall, and he will remain there until he is cast to the earth in verse 9. It is also important to note that he is not cast into eternal hell (the lake of fire) to join those he has duped until after the Millennium (chapter 20:10). Now, as this battle is fought, Satan is defeated. Praise God! Satan is mighty, but God is Almighty! Satan can destroy, but God can destroy the destroyer! That is why the Christian should never fear the events of daily life. He has victory in Jesus. Yes, greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Satan's demise began when he was cast out of the third heaven (see Isaiah 14:12 – 14), continues until Revelation 12:9 when he is cast out of the first and second heavens, and is completed when he is cast into the lake of fire (chapter 20:10). John foresaw that hour and said, The prince of this world shall be cast out (John 12:31) and the prince of this world is judged (John 16:11). To the internal Christ, Satan's doom was as good as accomplished, but for you and me, time had to pass. Now, in our text, the moment has arrived: (Satan and his angels) prevailed not (verse 8). Michael's gunners zero in, and Satan's place -an abiding location for centuries- is found no longer. Instead, the dragon (Satan) which deceives the whole world: [is] cast out into the earth, and his angels [are] cast out with him. This signals the end of Satan's role in the aerial and stellar heavens, and the victory celebration begins. All heaven rejoices over that which Michael's defeat of Satan has accomplished.

God bless.

During this final 42 month period, described as the Great Tribulation (see Revelation 7:14)...

You should have chosen Mat. 24:21 here. We find the same two words in Rev. 7:14, but sorry, 7:14 is NOT the same time Jesus spoke of here: "Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

7:14 is before John has officially opened the 70th week. The days of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of, caused by the Beast, come in the second half of the week, Jesus had to ADD the words in bold. Just the two words, :great tribulation" were not enough to describe those days. John has not yet even revealed the Beast to the readers in chapter 7, much less arrived at the 2d half of the week. Sorry, but 7:14 is speaking of something different. You are correct, they are Jews (those living in Judea) who flee and are protected supernaturally.

Some Bible authorities believe that this war in heaven began at the time of the Rapture in chapter 4:1. Since a war involves a number of skirmishes or battles, this is a distinct possibility. The assumption is based on Daniel 12:1and 2.

Why is this portion of scripture right here after the woman flees? The timing is 1 second after the abomination. Why would John write of this battle right here one second after the abomination and one second after the 7th trumpet has sounded? This theory by the "authorities" is only myth. What happens at the 7th trumpet? We read that the Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of our Lord. But WHY HERE at the 7th trumpet? What has happened that has caused the transfer of the kingdoms? What was the mystery told in chapter 10 about the 7th trumpet? It is because the 1st 6000 years of man's rule is OVER, Adam's lease (the scroll) has RUN OUT - EXPIRED, and suddenly Satan has no hold on anything. For 6000 years he has usurped Adam's lease, but sudden that has ended. Michael has been waiting for this time for a LONG LONG time, just waiting for the sounding of the 7th trumpet. He goes immediately to cast Satan down. It will not take long. sorry, NO skirmishes. So the change of millenniums comes at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. From this point on, GOD RULES. However, He has already agreed to give the Beast 42 months of authority. It is Judgment time.

These scholars reason that since those who are caught up in the Rapture of the church must pass through the areas where Satan reigns -the aerial and stellar heavens- Satan becomes aroused and attempts to hinder this evacuation of the Saints from the earth.

This is only the reasoning of men - nothing in scripture even hints of it. We know heaven has twice as many angels as Satan has. If there was resistance it would be blown out immediately. But scripture says nothing of this. The warfare is exactly where John put it, one second after the abomination that divides the week.

This signals the end of Satan's role in the aerial and stellar heavens,

Indeed, and the end of his reign as god of this present world. Jesus reigns supreme! The kingdoms of this world will soon transfer to our King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Praise to His Name forever. However, the bride will be in heaven and will only witness the sounding of the 7th trumpet to mark this marvelous exchange.

Better that you address the actual Dan.9:27 verse first, since you clearly contradict yourself in the above.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

That "one week" is symbolic of 7 years. 1260 days is only 3.5 years. So where's the OTHER 1260 days in that? It is... there.

First 1260 days period (or 1st half of the "one week") = a league made in Jerusalem for 7 years STARTS the 1st 1260 days period.

Second 1260 days (last half) = begins when that false one places the abomination of desolation in the temple. That... is the mid-point of Daniel's "one week" and it BEGINS the last half 1260 day count.

| -----League made ------------- | Antichrist places AOD ---- | ------- tribulation ------------------| Day of The LORD
| --------1260 days -------------- | -------- Mid point ------------| --------- 1260 days --------------- | Christ's coming


So WHY have you come here to try... and confuse Christ's believers?

I can see right now you're just another FALSE JEW.

Sorry, you are making an argument where there is none. I wrote:

Beginning | -1260 days -> Abomination <- 1260 days - | ending. (emphasis added to help Veteran see it)

OF COURSE there is 1260 days in the first half. But we are talking about 12:6, and the woman fleeing. She is fleeing at the very day the abomination takes place. Therefore, chances are 99.99999999999% she is fleeing because she has seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) is obeying what Jesus said to do, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.

Just so you can have more to argue about, the first 1260 days begins with the 7th seal broken in heaven. It ends with the abomination in the temple. The 7th trumpet sounds at the same moment the abomination takes place on earth, to MARK that time. Your Day of the Lord is 3 1/2 years off. The first six trumpets sound during the first 1260 days. And they will be the first part of the Day of the Lord - the destruction God promised.

I am here to straighten out the MESS you have and are causing. Square pegs are not meant for round holes, but you are always determined to force them in - even if you must ignore plain scriptures.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Sorry, you are making an argument where there is none. I wrote:

Beginning | -1260 days -> Abomination <- 1260 days - | ending. (emphasis added to help Veteran see it)

OF COURSE there is 1260 days in the first half. But we are talking about 12:6, and the woman fleeing. She is fleeing at the very day the abomination takes place. Therefore, chances are 99.99999999999% she is fleeing because she has seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) is obeying what Jesus said to do, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.

Just so you can have more to argue about, the first 1260 days begins with the 7th seal broken in heaven. It ends with the abomination in the temple. The 7th trumpet sounds at the same moment the abomination takes place on earth, to MARK that time. Your Day of the Lord is 3 1/2 years off. The first six trumpets sound during the first 1260 days. And they will be the first part of the Day of the Lord - the destruction God promised.

I am here to straighten out the MESS you have and are causing. Square pegs are not meant for round holes, but you are always determined to force them in - even if you must ignore plain scriptures.

Lamad

THIS... is what you said before:

"Again, you are dreaming: ALL mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether in years, months or days, are for the SECOND half. IF you think 12:6 is NOT about them fleeing because they have seen the abomination, perhaps you can come up with something better? If the abomination is NOT in chapter 11, perhaps you can show us where it really is?

Perhaps you need remedial Math: 101. When God speaks of days, as in 1260 days, that means this time period is going to be accurate to the exact day. If we subtract 1260 (the time of the fleeing as in 12:6) from 1260 (the length of the second half of the week) we get ZERO days. What does this mean? It means the abomination MUST TAKE PLACE immediately before 12:6. Not one day before, not one week before, not one month before, but SECONDS before. Therefore this fleeing is the EXACT FLEEING Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11:2, that 42 months is going to be accurate to the very month, but perhaps not exactly to the day. That tells me that even at 11:2, and 11:3, John is VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint and abomination. Again, the 1260 days (verse 3) must be accurate to the exact day. But they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. Therefore, they SHOW UP exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is beginning arithmetic. Lamad"


Firstly, you've shown your belief on the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory. That... theory teaches specifically, a rapture of Christ's Church off the earth to Heaven... BEFORE the tribulation begins! That point is what this thread is about, the idea of a Mid-Tribulational Rapture. By Mid is meant in the MIDDLE of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. And that's what you are preaching, but it is false. (Maybe... you don't really even understand... that doctrine you claim to believe?)

My chart layout is specific enough to show the proper division of events per Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27. But you refused to note that chart but chose to bypass it instead.

Here it is again... with the Rev.11 and Rev.12 events...


| -----League made ----------|- Antichrist places AOD ----|--------- tribulation -----------------|<Day of The LORD
| --------1260 days -----------| -------- Mid point -------------|----------- 1260 days --------------|<Christ's coming
| -Jerusalem temple estab.-|--Two Witnesses start ----->|--Two Witness Cont.--|-3.5days -|
|--Rev.12:6 wilderness------|>------Rev.12:7-12----------<|----Rev.12:13-17 wilderness------|


The placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem cannot occur until... the Rev.12:7-9 verses of the war in Heaven with Satan and his angels being cast out happens. Obviously, the dragon MUST first be on the earth to place the abomination in Jerusalem.

The Rev.12:6 event is PRIOR to that casting out.

So it's not me that needs to learn how to count. Verse 6 is PRIOR to verse 7 through 17, and prior to verse 14 about the woman being under protection for 3.5 years ("time, times, and half a time").

 

[iamlamad]

THIS... is what you said before:

"Again, you are dreaming: ALL mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether in years, months or days, are for the SECOND half. IF you think 12:6 is NOT about them fleeing because they have seen the abomination, perhaps you can come up with something better? If the abomination is NOT in chapter 11, perhaps you can show us where it really is?

Perhaps you need remedial Math: 101. When God speaks of days, as in 1260 days, that means this time period is going to be accurate to the exact day. If we subtract 1260 (the time of the fleeing as in 12:6) from 1260 (the length of the second half of the week) we get ZERO days. What does this mean? It means the abomination MUST TAKE PLACE immediately before 12:6. Not one day before, not one week before, not one month before, but SECONDS before. Therefore this fleeing is the EXACT FLEEING Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11:2, that 42 months is going to be accurate to the very month, but perhaps not exactly to the day. That tells me that even at 11:2, and 11:3, John is VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint and abomination. Again, the 1260 days (verse 3) must be accurate to the exact day. But they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. Therefore, they SHOW UP exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is beginning arithmetic. Lamad"


Firstly, you've shown your belief on the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory. That... theory teaches specifically, a rapture of Christ's Church off the earth to Heaven... BEFORE the tribulation begins! That point is what this thread is about, the idea of a Mid-Tribulational Rapture. By Mid is meant in the MIDDLE of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. And that's what you are preaching, but it is false. (Maybe... you don't really even understand... that doctrine you claim to believe?)

My chart layout is specific enough to show the proper division of events per Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27. But you refused to note that chart but chose to bypass it instead.

Here it is again... with the Rev.11 and Rev.12 events...


| -----League made ----------|- Antichrist places AOD ----|--------- tribulation -----------------|<Day of The LORD
| --------1260 days -----------| -------- Mid point -------------|----------- 1260 days --------------|<Christ's coming
| -Jerusalem temple estab.-|--Two Witnesses start ----->|--Two Witness Cont.--|-3.5days -|
|--Rev.12:6 wilderness------|>------Rev.12:7-12----------<|----Rev.12:13-17 wilderness------|


The placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem cannot occur until... the Rev.12:7-9 verses of the war in Heaven with Satan and his angels being cast out happens. Obviously, the dragon MUST first be on the earth to place the abomination in Jerusalem.

The Rev.12:6 event is PRIOR to that casting out.

So it's not me that needs to learn how to count. Verse 6 is PRIOR to verse 7 through 17, and prior to verse 14 about the woman being under protection for 3.5 years ("time, times, and half a time").

This may be your theory, but it is certainly not John's plan or the Holy Spirit's plan. Now you have the woman fleeing and she dont' even know why, for the abomination (in your theory) had not happened yet! Maybe she is scared of the two witnesses?

It is MYTH that the abomination cannot occur until Satan is cast down. It is the "man of sin" that does the abomination, and he needed no help! He will do this deed on his own. You are rearranging again. Why is that? To fit your theory? Why not establish your theory on what is written instead of the reverse? You said, "the dragon MUST be on the earth to place the abomination." The abomination comes in TWO PARTS. (just like two comings). First, the man of sin says, "I am god." Later, when the false prophet arrives and the image is made, THEN the images is quite likely placed in the temple. SO you are half right. Lamad

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Back to the rapture topic ....

We have to keep in mind why this whole subject came up in the new testament in the first place.

Jesus had come and gone .... the church was still new and young .... everybody was expecting Jesus to come back again soon and usher in the kingdom .... but he did not ...... and as time went by some of the Christians died and were buried.

For that reason some of the Christians said that those deceased Christians had missed out on .... "the coming of the Lord" (day of the Lord)..... and only the remaining (still living) Christians would get to "be with Jesus" when he comes

The writers of the bible then clarified that the (deceased) Christians would in fact be raised first .... and then an instant later the living Christians would be "changed" and both groups would be with Jesus.

This "change" happens in the twinkling of an eye and that is the event we commonly call the "rapture" or the "snatching up" of (living) believers.

So in summary the "rapture" will be an actual event ..... the endless controversy we have is about the timing of it ... pre-trib .... mid-trib .... or post-trib .... etc.

We all understand there will be a resurrection of our bodies some day ...... but we have to be dead first in order to be resurrected to the new bodies ...... those of us who are still alive will have our living bodies changed in an instant (rapture) (we do not have to die first) .... and then we will all be together with the Lord.

The rapture is a factual event that will take place some day in the future.

The timing of it is what we disagree about.

 

[Rex]

Granted Arnie there is a catching away, but it's a single event that will be witnessed by all both saved and unsaved its the day of the Lords return the last trump.
It's not some secret disappearance of people from the earth. Secrets and things whispered in the dark are the works of the adversary not the Lord.

 

[ENOCH2010]

You got that right Arnie M, Now look in the Bible for the first resurrection, and you will know when the "rapture" happens. Revelation chapter 20

 

[veteran]

This may be your theory, but it is certainly not John's plan or the Holy Spirit's plan. Now you have the woman fleeing and she dont' even know why, for the abomination (in your theory) had not happened yet! Maybe she is scared of the two witnesses?

It is MYTH that the abomination cannot occur until Satan is cast down. It is the "man of sin" that does the abomination, and he needed no help! He will do this deed on his own. You are rearranging again. Why is that? To fit your theory? Why not establish your theory on what is written instead of the reverse? You said, "the dragon MUST be on the earth to place the abomination." The abomination comes in TWO PARTS. (just like two comings). First, the man of sin says, "I am god." Later, when the false prophet arrives and the image is made, THEN the images is quite likely placed in the temple. SO you are half right. Lamad

Not a theory. It's what Revelation is showing based on rightly dividing the Scirptures according to its proper timelines.

So tell me hot shot. If the woman had fled back at Rev.12:6, then what is the later... Rev.12:14 fleeing for???

Rev 12:14
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(KJV)

Back to the rapture topic ....

We have to keep in mind why this whole subject came up in the new testament in the first place.

Jesus had come and gone .... the church was still new and young .... everybody was expecting Jesus to come back again soon and usher in the kingdom .... but he did not ...... and as time went by some of the Christians died and were buried.

For that reason some of the Christians said that those deceased Christians had missed out on .... "the coming of the Lord" (day of the Lord)..... and only the remaining (still living) Christians would get to "be with Jesus" when he comes

The writers of the bible then clarified that the (deceased) Christians would in fact be raised first .... and then an instant later the living Christians would be "changed" and both groups would be with Jesus.

This "change" happens in the twinkling of an eye and that is the event we commonly call the "rapture" or the "snatching up" of (living) believers.

So in summary the "rapture" will be an actual event ..... the endless controversy we have is about the timing of it ... pre-trib .... mid-trib .... or post-trib .... etc.

We all understand there will be a resurrection of our bodies some day ...... but we have to be dead first in order to be resurrected to the new bodies ...... those of us who are still alive will have our living bodies changed in an instant (rapture) (we do not have to die first) .... and then we will all be together with the Lord.

The rapture is a factual event that will take place some day in the future.

The timing of it is what we disagree about.

Got to closely read Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:1-2 to understand what was going on among the brethren there.


II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)


II Th 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:... .


What did Paul means by don't let any "man" deceive you?

What did he mean to not be stirred up or troubled by some letter "as from us"?


Paul pointed to the idea of FALSE BRETHREN among the body there, even to false letters passed among them that were claimed to be written by the Apostles.

The "workers of iniquity" were right there amongst them, doing their work for the devil. Doing what work?

THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE... THE TIMING AND ORDER OF CHRIST'S COMING AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.

 

[iamlamad]

You got that right Arnie M, Now look in the Bible for the first resurrection, and you will know when the "rapture" happens. Revelation chapter 20

Enoch, just a reminder, PAUL was the only writer of the New Testament that had the revelation of the rapture. He did not write Revelation. His rapture comes as the trigger for the signs of the Day, not 7 years into the day as you suggest. There has been and will be ORDER to the 1st resurrection. JESUS was a part of this resurrection. The Old testament elders that rose with Jesus were a part of the 1st resurrection. The dead in Christ will be a part of it. then the 144,000 will be a part. Finally, the Old testament saints will be a part, and those that lose their head during the week will be a part.

Lamad

Not a theory. It's what Revelation is showing based on rightly dividing the Scirptures according to its proper timelines.

So tell me hot shot. If the woman had fled back at Rev.12:6, then what is the later... Rev.12:14 fleeing for???

Rev 12:14
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(KJV)

12:6 and 12:14 are giving us the SAME EVENT. God wants to be sure we get it! In 12:6 we see there is a place prepared (my guess is Petra) and that she would be fed. In 12:14 we get more information: she will be protected ON HER WAY THERE, just as the wall of fire protected them on their way out of Egypt.This verse again tells us she will be fed there supernaturally. Perhaps manna again. God was good in giving us this time as Daniel wrote it. He gives us this same time 7 different times and in three different ways. I think it is important.


Got to closely read Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:1-2 to understand what was going on among the brethren there.

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

II Th 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:... .


What did Paul means by don't let any "man" deceive you?

Someone had already tried to deceive them in telling them the Day of the Lord had already started, and they were now in the Day. Paul has to straighten out their thinking.

What did he mean to not be stirred up or troubled by some letter "as from us"?

It seems they had received a forged letter...but Paul was not absolutely sure HOW they had been deceived. This gets to the core of this passage: WHY were they so troubled? Perhaps Paul had previously told them the rapture would come before the day of the Lord and now someone has told them they were IN the day.....so they had either missed the rapture or Paul was wrong. I guess in similar circumstances I too would be troubled.

Paul pointed to the idea of FALSE BRETHREN among the body there, even to false letters passed among them that were claimed to be written by the Apostles.

I agree; perhaps someone had forged Paul's name on a letter. So false teachers were already there.

The "workers of iniquity" were right there amongst them, doing their work for the devil. Doing what work?

THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE... THE TIMING AND ORDER OF CHRIST'S COMING AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.

You are right, people are still trying to do that today. We have people today saying the 70th week started in 2010 or some other year, when Obama made a speech. They are ignorant of scripture.

I am not sure these false teachers even mentioned the gathering. They were living under some tough persecution. Some thought it was so tough it must be the Day had come. Paul's argument was: just wait until you see the man of sin be revealed. then you will KNOW the Day will have started. But before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining Him must be taken out of the way FIRST. This is Paul's argument and His order of events. Once the restrainer has been taken out of the way, and the man of sin IS REVEALED, then KNOW the Day has begun, and you are IN IT.

Lamad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Enoch, just a reminder, PAUL was the only writer of the New Testament that had the revelation of the rapture. He did not write Revelation. His rapture comes as the trigger for the signs of the Day, not 7 years into the day as you suggest. There has been and will be ORDER to the 1st resurrection. JESUS was a part of this resurrection. The Old testament elders that rose with Jesus were a part of the 1st resurrection. The dead in Christ will be a part of it. then the 144,000 will be a part. Finally, the Old testament saints will be a part, and those that lose their head during the week will be a part.

Lamad


You are right, people are still trying to do that today. We have people today saying the 70th week started in 2010 or some other year, when Obama made a speech. They are ignorant of scripture.

I am not sure these false teachers even mentioned the gathering. They were living under some tough persecution. Some thought it was so tough it must be the Day had come. Paul's argument was: just wait until you see the man of sin be revealed. then you will KNOW the Day will have started. But before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining Him must be taken out of the way FIRST. This is Paul's argument and His order of events. Once the restrainer has been taken out of the way, and the man of sin IS REVEALED, then KNOW the Day has begun, and you are IN IT.

Lamad

Veteran,
Not a theory. It's what Revelation is showing based on rightly dividing the Scirptures according to its proper timelines.

So tell me hot shot. If the woman had fled back at Rev.12:6, see Zechariah 14:1-5 Jesus comes down and splits the Mount of Olivies so the army of Israel can flee from the antichrist and the armies of all nations.

then what is the later... Rev.12:14 fleeing for??? see Isaiah 5:24-30 when the judgment by fire falls on Israel God calls a country to come from the other end of the earth to come to Israel and take the women and children back to the other end of the earth safely. This happens at the 6th seal when the heavens are darkened over Israel.

 

[veteran]

12:6 and 12:14 are giving us the SAME EVENT. God wants to be sure we get it! In 12:6 we see there is a place prepared (my guess is Petra) and that she would be fed. In 12:14 we get more information: she will be protected ON HER WAY THERE, just as the wall of fire protected them on their way out of Egypt.This verse again tells us she will be fed there supernaturally. Perhaps manna again. God was good in giving us this time as Daniel wrote it. He gives us this same time 7 different times and in three different ways. I think it is important.

That is very disconcerting, mainly because the idea of a physical fleeing... is NOT even what those Rev.12:6 and Rev.12:14 verses are about!

You clearly haven't yet understood what those Rev.12:6-17 verses are really about. You're instead relying on a Jewish teaching from Messianic Judaism. (Must by why all you Messianics are here; you need to hear this).


Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

The way... the serpent attacks the woman is by what comes out of his MOUTH.

It's about lies causing deception.

The attack is SPIRITUAL, and thus the fleeing here in Rev.12 is SPIRITUAL, away from deception.


In Christ's Olivet Discourse, it is about a physical fleeing. He did tell those of His in Jerusalem at the time just prior to His coming to destroy there, to flee to the mountains, like Luke 21...


Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)


Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)

It's evident that the Antichrist-pseudoChrist will bring his armies around Jerusalem for the very end just prior to Christ's coming, but the placing of the abomination idol in a temple in Jerusalem is prior to that. Moreover, this specific fleeing is for those ONLY in Judea at that time, the Rev.12:6 & 14 Scripture is not.



Rev.12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

The waters AS a flood out of the serpent's mouth is PRIOR to that "war with the remnant of her seed".

Thus the 3.5 years in the wilderness idea of Rev.12:14 is about the woman being SPIRITUALLY protected from deceptions by the coming false messiah in Jerusalem, which is not a physical fleeing.

The reason why the serpent goes to make war AFTER... the flood (of deceptive lies) is swallowed up by the earth, is BECAUSE his deceptions did not take upon the woman.

"So tell me hot shot. If the woman had fled back at Rev.12:6, ..."


see Zechariah 14:1-5 Jesus comes down and splits the Mount of Olivies so the army of Israel can flee from the antichrist and the armies of all nations.

"...then what is the later... Rev.12:14 fleeing for??? "

see Isaiah 5:24-30 when the judgment by fire falls on Israel God calls a country to come from the other end of the earth to come to Israel and take the women and children back to the other end of the earth safely. This happens at the 6th seal when the heavens are darkened over Israel.

I know it's difficult with this new software for the Forum, but you still need to try to separate your quoting of others.

I know the KJV speaks of fleeing there in Zech.14, but it's not about Israel's army, it's about Christ gathering His saints to Jerusalem at His coming there, i.e, the "caught up" event of 1 Thes.4, the "last trump", the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial, day of The LORD, battle of Armageddon (Christ and His from Heaven fight that battle, not the saints still alive on earth at that time, and not Israel's army on earth. See Ezekiel 38 & 39).

You are definitely wrong on the meaning of Isaiah 5:24-30, for that is not about Israel being delivered at all!!! It's about Israel per history under attack for disobeying God and not listening to Him, and Israel being scattered, with foreign nations coming upon the land to destroy. That happened by the kings of Assyria and the king of Babylon. And the majority of Israel were scattered among the nations like God said he would do to them because of their rebellion (Deut.4 & 28).

 

[Trumpeter]

Greetings,

Hear a parable of the End Times:


[God The Father] The fig tree leaves are dropping... The time of His return/coming/choosing draws near.


[Jesus The Christ] Timothy, picture a fig tree in your mind... How do you see it?


[Timothy] I see it in Fall, as the leaves are drying up and falling to the ground.


[Jesus The Christ] The leaves of the tree represent two separate aspects of the end of days. As the sand of the hourglass, so are the leaves. As the nations fall away from Me, so also do the leaves fall from the light to the ground, fall and wither... So too will the nations.

The “time of His return” is when I return for My Bride and Church. The “time of His coming” is when I come in power and great glory, and every eye shall see Me. The “time of His choosing” is when I take My judgment seat.

At sunset, yet one more nation has fallen from Me... Far from Me have they fallen. The nations are eight and eighty... Eight have fallen; eighty will fall before The Son’s return. Of these nations, two will return and stay true, before My coming... The country in which you live and the nation of Israel.

Listen to your wife for she has wisdom, wisdom for reaching farther and deeper than she knows... A gift from God is the wisdom she owns.


Excerpt from:
Parable of the End Times
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Parable_of_the_End_Times

 

[veteran]

Greetings,

Hear a parable of the End Times:


[God The Father] The fig tree leaves are dropping... The time of His return/coming/choosing draws near.


[Jesus The Christ] Timothy, picture a fig tree in your mind... How do you see it?


[Timothy] I see it in Fall, as the leaves are drying up and falling to the ground.


[Jesus The Christ] The leaves of the tree represent two separate aspects of the end of days. As the sand of the hourglass, so are the leaves. As the nations fall away from Me, so also do the leaves fall from the light to the ground, fall and wither... So too will the nations.

The “time of His return” is when I return for My Bride and Church. The “time of His coming” is when I come in power and great glory, and every eye shall see Me. The “time of His choosing” is when I take My judgment seat.

At sunset, yet one more nation has fallen from Me... Far from Me have they fallen. The nations are eight and eighty... Eight have fallen; eighty will fall before The Son’s return. Of these nations, two will return and stay true, before My coming... The country in which you live and the nation of Israel.

Listen to your wife for she has wisdom, wisdom for reaching farther and deeper than she knows... A gift from God is the wisdom she owns.


Excerpt from:
Parable of the End Times
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Parable_of_the_End_Times

You need to quit making this stuff up. It does NO benefit to The Word of God.

 

[iamlamad]

That is very disconcerting, mainly because the idea of a physical fleeing... is NOT even what those Rev.12:6 and Rev.12:14 verses are about!

You clearly haven't yet understood what those Rev.12:6-17 verses are really about. You're instead relying on a Jewish teaching from Messianic Judaism. (Must by why all you Messianics are here; you need to hear this).

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

The way... the serpent attacks the woman is by what comes out of his MOUTH.

It's about lies causing deception.

The attack is SPIRITUAL, and thus the fleeing here in Rev.12 is SPIRITUAL, away from deception.


In Christ's Olivet Discourse, it is about a physical fleeing. He did tell those of His in Jerusalem at the time just prior to His coming to destroy there, to flee to the mountains, like Luke 21...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)

It's evident that the Antichrist-pseudoChrist will bring his armies around Jerusalem for the very end just prior to Christ's coming, but the placing of the abomination idol in a temple in Jerusalem is prior to that. Moreover, this specific fleeing is for those ONLY in Judea at that time, the Rev.12:6 & 14 Scripture is not.



Rev.12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

The waters AS a flood out of the serpent's mouth is PRIOR to that "war with the remnant of her seed".

Thus the 3.5 years in the wilderness idea of Rev.12:14 is about the woman being SPIRITUALLY protected from deceptions by the coming false messiah in Jerusalem, which is not a physical fleeing.

The reason why the serpent goes to make war AFTER... the flood (of deceptive lies) is swallowed up by the earth, is BECAUSE his deceptions did not take upon the woman.


I know it's difficult with this new software for the Forum, but you still need to try to separate your quoting of others.

I know the KJV speaks of fleeing there in Zech.14, but it's not about Israel's army, it's about Christ gathering His saints to Jerusalem at His coming there, i.e, the "caught up" event of 1 Thes.4, the "last trump", the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial, day of The LORD, battle of Armageddon (Christ and His from Heaven fight that battle, not the saints still alive on earth at that time, and not Israel's army on earth. See Ezekiel 38 & 39).

You are definitely wrong on the meaning of Isaiah 5:24-30, for that is not about Israel being delivered at all!!! It's about Israel per history under attack for disobeying God and not listening to Him, and Israel being scattered, with foreign nations coming upon the land to destroy. That happened by the kings of Assyria and the king of Babylon. And the majority of Israel were scattered among the nations like God said he would do to them because of their rebellion (Deut.4 & 28).

So, you are like the preterists and wish to spiritualize this?

Matt. 24
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

These are VERY explicit instructions for a spiritual fleeing! Very pregnant ladies would find it very hard to run for their life. Nursing mothers must carry their babies. If in the winter, the snow may hinder and the cold certainly would, for they have no time to go into the house for a coat. Of couse, they could not run on a Sabbath. OF COURSE this is not meant to be spiritualized: this is a PHYSICAL fleeing to get away from the man of sin turned Beast.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

So, you are like the preterists and wish to spiritualize this?

Matt. 24
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

These are VERY explicit instructions for a spiritual fleeing! Very pregnant ladies would find it very hard to run for their life. Nursing mothers must carry their babies. If in the winter, the snow may hinder and the cold certainly would, for they have no time to go into the house for a coat. Of couse, they could not run on a Sabbath. OF COURSE this is not meant to be spiritualized: this is a PHYSICAL fleeing to get away from the man of sin turned Beast.

Lamad

Is that the BEST... your mind can come back with???


Tell me, HOW does one flee from 'water as a flood' out of the serpent's MOUTH? The Rev.12 'water as a flood' out of the serpent's mouth is a METAPHOR silly!

HOW does one physically flee... from a METAPHOR?

Are there really that many people here ignorant of the idea of idoims and symbolic language given in God's Word?

I'll bet you must think the locust army of Rev.9 is about real locusts too, with real hair like women, real breastplates of iron, real teeth like lions, riding real horses, and with real faces of men!

If you can't distiguish the difference between direct Truths from symbolic metaphors written in God's Word, then maybe you ought to apply for a job at Disney World!

 

[iamlamad]

Is that the BEST... your mind can come back with???


Tell me, HOW does one flee from 'water as a flood' out of the serpent's MOUTH? The Rev.12 'water as a flood' out of the serpent's mouth is a METAPHOR silly!

HOW does one physically flee... from a METAPHOR?

Are there really that many people here ignorant of the idea of idoims and symbolic language given in God's Word?

I'll bet you must think the locust army of Rev.9 is about real locusts too, with real hair like women, real breastplates of iron, real teeth like lions, riding real horses, and with real faces of men!

If you can't distiguish the difference between direct Truths from symbolic metaphors written in God's Word, then maybe you ought to apply for a job at Disney World!

Perhaps you need to RE-read this - for you STILL have not gotten it! How can you read and read, and not get it? Ah! It is those preconceived glasses! Veteran, take them off and read as a child!

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

They are told by Jesus to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES. And in Rev. 12:6 and 12:14, that is exactly what they do.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

She will NOT fly El Al or KLM or any other commercial airline!

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

How do you picture in your mind that the earth can open up and swollow WORDS? THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL FLOOD. Of course it does not come from the dragon's mouth, but it will be WATER. And the earth will open up and the water will go down. Do you doubt the devil can make a real flood?

It is very dangerous to begin spiritualizing things meant to be literal. They will RUN (on foot) to the mountains. There will be no time for anything else. They will get supernatural protection from God.

Lamad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Perhaps you need to RE-read this - for you STILL have not gotten it! How can you read and read, and not get it? Ah! It is those preconceived glasses! Veteran, take them off and read as a child!

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

They are told by Jesus to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES. And in Rev. 12:6 and 12:14, that is exactly what they do.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

She will NOT fly El Al or KLM or any other commercial airline!

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

How do you picture in your mind that the earth can open up and swollow WORDS? THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL FLOOD. Of course it does not come from the dragon's mouth, but it will be WATER. And the earth will open up and the water will go down. Do you doubt the devil can make a real flood?

It is very dangerous to begin spiritualizing things meant to be literal. They will RUN (on foot) to the mountains. There will be no time for anything else. They will get supernatural protection from God.

Lamad

Zechariah 14:1-5
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[SIZE=14pt](When the army of Israel flees, it will be to the river ford on the Arnon River 1/3 of the way south on the other side of the dead sea.[/SIZE]

The antichrist will be caused to send an army after the fleeing Jews by the serpent. The army will be swollowed by the earth as the Egyptians were wsollowed by the Red Sea!)

 

[veteran]

Perhaps you need to RE-read this - for you STILL have not gotten it! How can you read and read, and not get it? Ah! It is those preconceived glasses! Veteran, take them off and read as a child!

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I read just fine! But obviously you cannot, since you're not even addressing the Revelation 12 Scripture in question!!!

Why are you so obstinate and rebellious???


Rev 12:13-16
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)