The "Millenium Rule" SCRIPTURES ONLY thread

[ewq1938]

it's no fact and I'm biased to the extent that I believe and embrace only what scripture teaches.

it doesn't teach two resurrections

Yes it does. Rev 20 does and so does this verse:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Literally speaks of two different resurrections. You do have a doctrinal bias that is making you deny what the verse specifically says is true. Concede to what the scripture teaches, two resurrections. One is a resurrection of life, the second resurrection is of damnation. Concede.

 

[Rita]

@Patrick1966
let me know if you want this thread closed or not, it seems that not many took note of the opening lines in the OP ………it’s turned into a debate based on interpretations and opinions !!!!!!!
Rita

 

[keithr]

it doesn't teach two resurrections and it doesn't teach a thousand years on this earth after Christ returns.

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Why does it say the first resurrection if there is only one resurrection - that would be silly. Clearly there must be at least two resurrections, otherwise it would just say "the resurrection".

It also says that they will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after their resurrection. Likewise it says, Revelation 20:2-3 (WEB):

​

(2) He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,​

(3) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.​

Clearly Satan is bound for the 1,000 years rule of Christ, head and body, as Jesus rules with a rod of iron and with righteousness, when he will not permit sin and unrighteousness to have the free reign that they do presently, and Satan will not be able to lie to and deceive people because he has been bound. Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 years and his final attempts to thwart God's plans will be the test of loyalty to God and His righteousness.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Why does it say the first resurrection if there is only one resurrection - that would be silly. Clearly there must be at least two resurrections, otherwise it would just say "the resurrection".

It also says that they will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after their resurrection. Likewise it says, Revelation 20:2-3 (WEB):

​

(2) He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,​

(3) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.​

Clearly Satan is bound for the 1,000 years rule of Christ, head and body, as Jesus rules with a rod of iron and with righteousness, when he will not permit sin and unrighteousness to have the free reign that they do presently, and Satan will not be able to lie to and deceive people because he has been bound. Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 years and his final attempts to thwart God's plans will be the test of loyalty to God and His righteousness.

because any interpretation of Rev. 20 MUST coincide with the entirety of the Bible.

the Pre-Mil interpretation does not coincide with all the other end times passages.

therefore, it must be incorrect.

nowhere else in scripture do we find any teaching of a thousand year period to take place upon this physical earth after Christ returns. nowhere.

nowhere else in scripture do we find any teaching of multiple resurrections. nowhere.

therefore, if you cannot locate a verse that states "second resurrection" or any others, there is no Biblical support for such an assertion.

as I pointed out in an earlier post, the verse that mentions "first resurrection" makes that reference AFTER referring to "the rest of the dead" living again. if ALL the rest of the dead live again with a "first resurrection", that means the "first resurrection" is the ONLY resurrection. Rev. 20:5

if you're not aware (many are not), Revelation is a uniquely spiritual book that Jesus Himself declares is written using spiritual language, signs and symbols, throughout. He states this in 1:1.

if the book is highly symbolic, which it is, it is easier to understand how so much of Rev. 20, on its face, is not supported in the rest of the Bible.

if the Pre-Mil assertion of a Millennium time period coming after Christ's return were a sound Biblical doctrine, we would find it taught clearly elsewhere from Revelation. we find no such reference, support or teaching anywhere else BUT Rev. 20.

on the contrary, all other end times passages dramatically contradict the Pre-Mil position.

 

[keithr]

nowhere else in scripture do we find any teaching of a thousand year period to take place upon this physical earth after Christ returns. nowhere.

Don't forget that the Book of Revelation is, Revelation 1:1 (WEB):

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

It is Jesus revealing new things concerning the future, so it's not that surprising that it's not also revealed in other older books of the Bible.

as I pointed out in an earlier post, the verse that mentions "first resurrection" makes that reference AFTER referring to "the rest of the dead" living again. if ALL the rest of the dead live again with a "first resurrection", that means the "first resurrection" is the ONLY resurrection. Rev. 20:5

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Only those, and everyone of those, that have a part in the first resurrection are blessed with having eternal life (and immortality). The rest of mankind have a different resurrection and path to eternal life. The second, and last, resurrection is described in Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

Concerning verse 5, I have found the following comments:

Question:​

Kindly explain Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."​

​

Answer:​

Scholars are agreed that this text is an interpolation. We must remember, however, that it is one thing to be legally, or officially dead, and another thing to be actually dead. But as Jesus said to some, He recognized as alive only those who accepted Him. Those who had not the Son had not life in any sense or degree; those who have the Son, have the beginning of life reckoned to them. The world, however, during the thousand years will have the opportunity, not only of being awakened, but of having fulness of life. If, therefore, after they are awakened, they will go on and render obedience to the laws of the Kingdom, they will be lifted up, up, up out of death to perfection and life.​

In Rev. 20:5, the words "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" are spurious. They are not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS., the Sinaitic, Vatican Nos. 1209 and 1160, nor in the Syriac MS. We must remember that a few passages found in the modern copies are additions which do not properly belong to the Bible. Since commanded not to add to the Word of God, it is our duty to repudiate such additions as soon as their spurious character is established. The words indicated probably crept into the text by accident, in the fifth century; for no MS. of earlier date (either Greek or Syriac) contains this clause. It was probably at first merely a marginal comment made by a reader, expressive of his thought upon the text, and copied into the body of the text by some subsequent transcriber who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.​

 

[M3n0r4h]

Don't forget that the Book of Revelation is, Revelation 1:1 (WEB):

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

It is Jesus revealing new things concerning the future, so it's not that surprising that it's not also revealed in other older books of the Bible.


Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Only those, and everyone of those, that have a part in the first resurrection are blessed with having eternal life (and immortality). The rest of mankind have a different resurrection and path to eternal life. The second, and last, resurrection is described in Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

Concerning verse 5, I have found the following comments:

Question:​

Kindly explain Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."​

​

Answer:​

Scholars are agreed that this text is an interpolation. We must remember, however, that it is one thing to be legally, or officially dead, and another thing to be actually dead. But as Jesus said to some, He recognized as alive only those who accepted Him. Those who had not the Son had not life in any sense or degree; those who have the Son, have the beginning of life reckoned to them. The world, however, during the thousand years will have the opportunity, not only of being awakened, but of having fulness of life. If, therefore, after they are awakened, they will go on and render obedience to the laws of the Kingdom, they will be lifted up, up, up out of death to perfection and life.​

In Rev. 20:5, the words "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" are spurious. They are not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS., the Sinaitic, Vatican Nos. 1209 and 1160, nor in the Syriac MS. We must remember that a few passages found in the modern copies are additions which do not properly belong to the Bible. Since commanded not to add to the Word of God, it is our duty to repudiate such additions as soon as their spurious character is established. The words indicated probably crept into the text by accident, in the fifth century; for no MS. of earlier date (either Greek or Syriac) contains this clause. It was probably at first merely a marginal comment made by a reader, expressive of his thought upon the text, and copied into the body of the text by some subsequent transcriber who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.​

the case for Pre-Mil has been completely dismantled here.

some will just never accept that their pet doctrines are not Biblical at all.

 

[ewq1938]

on the contrary, all other end times passages dramatically contradict the Pre-Mil position.

This is a false claim as is all the claims in your post. It is the Amill position which contradict the scriptures such as the fact of there being two resurrections.

 

[ElieG12]

Rev. 20:5 is not the only biblical quote that shows that there will be a first one, and later a general resurrection, and that both resurrections have very different characteristics. That teaching runs deep and is made clearer with additional Biblical knowledge... that not everyone has.

For example, if Jesus said that John the Baptist will not be with other resurrected in the Kingdom in heaven (Luke. 7:28), it is obvious that he has to resurrect on another occasion and NOT with those who will be with Jesus there ... but it is certain that John the Baptist will be part of this other group of faithful who will live on earth forever:

Mat. 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

Another demonstration of two resurrections is to consider that the servants of God of old are not going to resurrect in heaven but on earth, because that was the hope that was given to them (Dan. 12:13; Heb. 11:8-10; 13-16; 39), and life in heaven was only given from the time of Jesus onwards (Mat. 11:12; John 3:3). That implies that they, pre-Christian worshipers of God, will not be resurrected to live there, but on earth (Psal. 37:10,11,29; Rev. 7:16,17; 21:3,4).

A third argument consists of the fact that if the Bible speaks of people who will live forever on earth and Jesus himself spoke of such people in Mat. 5:5 and yet there is a diferent group that will go to live in heaven with Jesus and will NEVER return to live on the planet, but instead have citizenship in heaven (Heb. 12:14,22-24; 13:14; Eph. 2:19; 1 Cor. 1:9; 2 Cor. 5:12; Col. 1:5; 1 Pet. 1:4) ... This implies that their resurrection is different from, and prior to, the general resurrection, especially if one takes into account that in heaven they will not have bodies of flesh like the ones that those who live on the planet will have (1 Cor. 15:50; 1 Pet. 1:10-13).

In Heb. 2:5 and then in Heb. 3:1 Paul speaks of the difference between "the inhabited earth to come" and the "partakers of the heavenly calling"... earth and heaven are two different places, since it is a terrestrial part that serves the Creator and a selection of humans taken from earth to participate from heaven in the reunification of humanity in general with the Creator (Eph. 1:9,10). In Rom. 8:20 Paul says that "the creation" awaits for the revelation of these humans who will be part of the heavenly family of God up there.

The matter can also be seen from a chronological perspective: for a group to reign over the planet's inhabitants for a thousand years, it is necessary and obligatory that they have already been resurrected before the inhabitants who will resurrect to join the survivors of the great tribulation. The resurrection of the future kings allows the blessings that their reign with Jesus brings to the rest of humanity on the planet in the future, that is, the perfection of humanity depends on the work of the kings/priests who have already had to be in heavens and performing their priesthood on behalfof of the human race before God. Paul says that the servants of God of old when they are resurrected, cannot be perfected without the function that the kings/priests will perform from heaven.

Heb. 11:39 And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

Furthermore, if we chronologically coordinate the words of Jesus in Mat. 24:31 and Matt. 19:28, we find that when all of today's humanity is finally judged, Jesus' brothers stand with him as judges. It is obvious that they would have had to be resurrected by that time (1 Cor. 6:2). However, the general resurrection of the rest of the humans is yet to take place at a time after that judgment, proving once again that there is an earlier resurrection than the general one, which is for the future judges/kings/priests to be together with Jesus for when the terrestrial Millennium begins (Dan. 7:22,27).

All these arguments and others show that there is a first resurrection and then, later, another of a different nature.

PS: Please read the biblical quotes to get the teaching out of the Scriptures and learn from them.

 

[M3n0r4h]

if Jesus said that John the Baptist will not be with other resurrected in the Kingdom

well, He did NOT say that ... at all.

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:28

if that's what your entire post rested upon, ... now what?

crazy amount of supposition in that post with no Biblical support whatsoever.

 

[ewq1938]

well, He did NOT say that ... at all.

They said "if". It was not the posters position that John resurrect separately. The point of that was to show the foolishness of saved saints resurrecting at two separate times when scripture is clear all the saved resurrect to life in the same resurrection, which also proves the unsaved all resurrect in their own resurrection, called the resurrection of damnation.

 

[M3n0r4h]

They said "if". It was not the posters position that John resurrect separately. The point of that was to show the foolishness of saved saints resurrecting at two separate times when scripture is clear all the saved resurrect to life in the same resurrection, which also proves the unsaved all resurrect in their own resurrection, called the resurrection of damnation.

it's still the same resurrection, the same singular event in John 5:28-29.

Jesus uses the word 'HOUR' to describe the event.

no matter how much time you choose to say that refers to, it certainly does not refer to a THOUSAND YEARS.

in that HOUR they will come forth, those who've done good to the recurrection of life, those who've done evil to the resurrection of damnation.

the text must be butchered to impose the meaning upon it that there will be a MILLENNIUM between those two outcomes for those raised at the same moment in time.

 

[ElieG12]

well, He did NOT say that ... at all.

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:28

Then what do you think he meant? Read the quote in context:

Matt. 11: 11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John (Luke 16:16).

Argue about the Scriptures ... not with me.

if that's what your entire post rested upon, ... now what?

My comment is full of demonstrations that there are two resurrections. Each demo is independent in itself.

I like to share biblical information with everyone, so they can draw informed conclusions while using their own rational thinking.

crazy amount of supposition in that post with no Biblical support whatsoever.

Read my post again ... Use other glasses.

 

[M3n0r4h]

would you mind explaining how you squeeze the idea that John the Baptist will be resurrected at a different time than others who will also be resurrected ....


... out of this:

Matt. 11: 11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John (Luke 16:16).

this isn't something that I need to argue with the scriptures about as I am differing with your "personal interpretation" of a scripture.

not with the scripture itself.

I stand by my statement that He did not say what you claimed He said in that particular verse.

 

[ElieG12]

I am not here to argue with you. I am sharing biblical important passages related to diferent topics. I don't mind your opinion about what biblical ideas I share with others.

The question stands:

If Jesus didn´t say that John won't be in heaven in the future, then what do you think he meant?

Read the quote in context:

Matt. 11: 11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John (Luke 16:16).

Argue about the Scriptures ... not with me.

Reserve your attitude to yourself ... that is not proper of a Christian.

 

[ewq1938]

it's still the same resurrection, the same singular event in John 5:28-29.

Except resurrection appears TWICE. There are two resurrections, that is clear. Don't let doctrinal bias make you disagree with scripture.

Jesus uses the word 'HOUR' to describe the event.

Hour also means "time". There's a time for each resurrection. The just rise before any of the unjust. Any doctrine that teaches both rise at the same time is wrong.

in that HOUR they will come forth, those who've done good to the recurrection of life, those who've done evil to the resurrection of damnation.

Which is easy to count and find two resurrections.

the text must be butchered to impose the meaning upon it that there will be a MILLENNIUM between those two outcomes for those raised at the same moment in time.

Wrong. The text is clear some live again before the Mill and "the rest of the dead" don't live again until after the Mill. There is nothing complicated there. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.

 

[keithr]

Except resurrection appears TWICE. There are two resurrections, that is clear. Don't let doctrinal bias make you disagree with scripture.

John 5:28-29 (WEB):

(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,​

(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

I think that "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life" is referring to Christians, who are resurrected with eternal life (their testing, or judgement, being during their lives before death; they do good by having faith and trust in Jesus and being obedient and becoming sanctified) - this is the first resurrection; "those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment" is referring to all non-Christians, who did not believe and have faith, so their testing, or judgement, will be after they have been resurrected, during the 1,000 years rule of Christ. The first resurrection occurs a short time (several years) before the second resurrection

Everyone has their sins forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice. Christians are forgiven when they come to have belief, and they can keep themselves clean by constantly asking for forgiveness through the merit of Jesus' sacrifice, and if they remain obedient and overcomers of the temptations of the world, the flesh and Satan then they will be resurrected perfect and will have immortality - eternal life. Non-Christians will be resurrected but will not yet have eternal life. Their sins of their life before death will be forgiven ("For he who has died has been freed from sin", Romans 6:7) and they will be jugded on how they live their lives after their resurrection. The judgement day of 1,000 years has been reserved for blessing them, restoring them to human perfection, during which time Satan will be bound so that he cannot deceive and adversely affect them. But Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:7) and will try once more to decieve people - this is the final test for mankind. Those that fail the test will be destroyed - their second death (Rev. 20:9,14,15). Those that pass the test will then (at the end of the 1,000 years) have eternal life.

The text is clear some live again before the Mill and "the rest of the dead" don't live again until after the Mill. There is nothing complicated there. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.

The second resurrection must occur at the beginning of the 1,000 years. The "rest of the dead" don't have eternal life until the end of the 1,000 years, after the final testing - before that they are at risk of the second death; only after passing that test will they have eternal life.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Except resurrection appears TWICE. There are two resurrections, that is clear. Don't let doctrinal bias make you disagree with scripture.





Hour also means "time". There's a time for each resurrection. The just rise before any of the unjust. Any doctrine that teaches both rise at the same time is wrong.



Which is easy to count and find two resurrections.




Wrong. The text is clear some live again before the Mill and "the rest of the dead" don't live again until after the Mill. There is nothing complicated there. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.

you are sledgehammering a round peg into a square hole.

that's okay.

I have debated this with you a lot longer than you realize and you have never conceded to being wrong about a single detail.

good on you, .... I guess.

not great for your Biblical growth and understanding, but good for your personal fortitude.

I guess.

although, when it comes to being a student of the Bible and a servant of God, refusing to bend is not the best trait. especially when refusing to bend to the Truth.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Except resurrection appears TWICE. There are two resurrections, that is clear. Don't let doctrinal bias make you disagree with scripture.

the word appears twice in the same verse, but that very obviously doesn't mean the speaker is referencing two events.

Hour also means "time". There's a time for each resurrection. The just rise before any of the unjust. Any doctrine that teaches both rise at the same time is wrong.

okay, let's try it with your semantics plugged in:

"... the (time) is coming, when all that are in the graves ... shall come forth; they that have done good to the (reward/ultimate outcome) of life; and they that have done evil to the (reward/ultimate outcome) of damnation."

same event, two outcomes for all those raised.

doesn't work and shows zero implication of a thousand year period between anything, much less any implication of multiple events.

Which is easy to count and find two resurrections.

nope.

The text is clear some live again before the Mill and "the rest of the dead" don't live again until after the Mill. There is nothing complicated there. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.

nope.

the thousand year symbolic time frame has already begun when Jesus Ministry began on the earth and was sealed by His death on the Cross which began the New Covenant. the end of THAT time period is when the only resurrection takes place and it is confirmed by Matt. 24:29, 1 Cor. 15:23-24, 1 Thess. 4:16-18 and John 5:28-29.

 

[M3n0r4h]

There are two resurrections, that is clear.

let's count the resurrections .... together.

ready?

"And have hope toward God, ... that there shall be a resurrection (a resurrection) of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."
Acts 24:15

"If by any means I might attain to the resurrection (the resurrection) of the dead."
Phil. 3:11

one .... singular .... resurrection.

any other interpretation of that text is pure butchery of the Bible.

nowhere in the Bible will you find a single verse that speaks specifically of multiple resurrections, nor of a "second resurrection", etc.

at some point one must admit that they believe doctrine that is not accounted for at all in scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

let's count the resurrections .... together.

ready?

"And have hope toward God, ... that there shall be a resurrection (a resurrection) of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."
Acts 24:15

A resurrection of two groups is still two resurrections. Why did you leaver out John? Isn't that a proof text of Amill??

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

"If by any means I might attain to the resurrection (the resurrection) of the dead."
Phil. 3:11

one .... singular .... resurrection.

LOL That's the first resurrectioon of the just to life.

any other interpretation of that text is pure butchery of the Bible.

You are speaking of your own interpretation actually.

nowhere in the Bible will you find a single verse that speaks specifically of multiple resurrections, nor of a "second resurrection", etc.

Except John 5 and Rev 20. (the poster intentionally did not post those passages because it proves their interpretation wrong)